MJH

I'd favour the rudos from Mexico if we're talking the best tag workers (as I guess is the case for US too, and Kawada obviously). It's tricky, though, with so many matches being trios. You have a handful of great set groups, particularly on the rudos side like Infernales etc... I can't even think of who I'd put with Santo as his regular partners. I agree with what you said about his ability, mind. And I've never thought Benoit's Mexico stuff was any good at all, and I'm one of the few people who'd still call myself a fan of him. Stan Lane is good enough, but as soon as he started those kicks, I tuned out. They were as bad a regular offence of any touted wrestler I've ever seen. Someone should've had him drop them after the first time he tried, much less have the announcers talk them up or have them as a finish. To clarify something, though, I wasn't actually nominating Kobashi over Kawada (I figure he's the obvious #1), merely responding to Dylan leaving him out at the end of his post. I'd put him as #2 though. If we're talking best tag workers by "who was in the best tag matches" then Misawa would be third, but (less than Kobashi) I don't think of him as a tag worker at all. I think it's difficult for the All Japan guys vs. the US teams, though. Through 1993, the tags were fairly similar in structure. They got all they could out of the old "southern tag" formula by 12/3/93 (and were already past it from a "story" pov), and then by the time you get to the 5/94 tag and beyond they're clearly working at such a higher level and their matches are more developed that stuff like Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Misawa/Ogawa, whilst not particularly notable for "'90s All Japan" (though still great, especially the first one last time I watched them when DVDVR were doing their Tag Team poll) is on a notably different level to what RnR/MX etc would do together.

Eh, different strokes I guess; of all the moves in wrestling capable of knocking a guy out for three seconds, a shotei is easilly in the bottom half of any "worst finishers" list for me. It doesn't need a huge bump from Ohtani for me to buy that it could knock someone out cold. They're much more devastating than a punch (which're illegal anyway ).

What, Taue but no Kobashi?!? Actually, one could make the argument that he was in *two* Top 5 all-time teams (and three in the Top 10). Misawa/Kobashi were the best team ever (Kawada/Taue only edge them by being together twice as long). And Kobashi/Kikuchi were about as perfect a babyface tag team as could ever be put together. If you take out "importance" and how long they were together, look at things on a night-by-night basis of what both teams were capable of, it's not a slam dunk case for RnRs over them by any means. Then again, you could make a similar argument for Kobashi/Akiyama (though Kobashi/Kikuchi are a far more stylistically comparable team... and certainly a *team* too).

Like Mike said. Anyone doing a German suplex into a pin bridges on their neck and keeps their shoulders off the mat. When a double pin is called for they suddenly don't. It'd be one thing if the guy taking the move forces and holds them onto their shoulders and stops them doing the bridge. Of course, that only makes you ask yourself why they didn't have the awareness or capability to get their own shoulders up. The "double pin" really only works in a cradle where both people can feasibly be trapping the other and trying to escape (unsuccessfully). As for the "own goal" element of it, they have that with moves backfiring (it's the most common transition in wrestling). Finally, if the shotei is a legit KO strike in martial arts, how is it a weak finish?

Are we talking about the shotei or an actual slap? Wasn't Bas knocking guys out with palm strikes in Pancrase (presumably where he picked it up)? I don't see how the shotei is any different than Misawa's elbow.

That awful shit was over and drawing big ratings. Today's awful shit, not so much. But, really, the problem isn't the TV-PG rating. All PG eliminates is profanity, sex and excessive violence (ie blood). The problem is that the company interpret a "PG" show as being excessively infantile. You can make intelligent programming for adults on a PG-rating. Now, granted, even when "wrestling grew up" it was sophomoric at best, but you can't put the shit purely on the rating and/or sponsors. End of semi-related segue...

Any suplex double pin is utterly retarded. Similarly, when a guy is counted down when applying a submission (be it figure-four or surfboard or whatever). How is that a cover by the other guy? At worst it should be a 10-count.

I guess Rock did OK for a while, though obviously it was Foley who benefitted most from the turn.

The belly-to-back version (reverse or regular?) was always better for being more apparent in what it was doing and looking less like a foul.

Yes, the knee hits the tailbone. Have you ever jumped up and landed on your ass? It hurts.

The difference between football and wrestling is that, in wrestling, athletic prime is one thing and "product of work" (?) prime would be another. Flair's athletic prime was in the mid 1980s, rather than 1989, but he was working with Steamboat and Terry and that more than made up the difference. Would anyone say Hansen was in his athletic prime in 1993? On a week-by-week basis Jumbo's peak of production would be the Misawa feud (until his illness). It goes without saying he was a better athlete when he was younger. Rey's athletic peak was, what, 1994? 1993-97 as a period. But... if someone wanted to say he was a better all-around worker during his WWE run I wouldn't necessarilly argue against them. Hell, Misawa's athletic prime was in the mid-1980s. His knees were already bad by the time he worked with Jumbo. etc/etc Often, people's prime is a product of their environment and/or their position, character, whatever. 1993 All Japan was perfect for Hansen to have his comeback. And he was working with three of the best wrestlers of all time as they were hitting their stride. The Kobashi match in particular is just perfect casting for that time and place with what both did best. But was he a better individual wrestler years earlier in the sense of what and how much he could do on any given night? Probably.

But it's a chance to get exposure on an international level! Bullshit aside, short of being offered a lot of money upfront, I don't know why anyone would want to work for TNA.

Money Inc... you have to watch TNA in order to watch Beer Money, and no sane person would do that.

What I've always loved about this match is the importance they place on Misawa's elbows. I can't think of another example where they were treated as, really, the key to him winning the match. From the outset, Doc puts them over huge; he's bigger, stronger, and can throw Misawa around, but his head's just as weak and prone to getting knocked silly as anyone else. I'm actually somewhat surprised that basic idea hasn't been used more. Where the match suffers is in two real areas for me. The first is that it's one of the most New Japanish All Japan matches I can remember. By that I mean, the gear shift around 15:00 is really sudden. The parts of the match before that aren't wasted, but they're much more deliberate. If my version was off a comm I'd swear the TV version cuts in right around then and they worked it for the JIP. As it's actually the TV version (and the match is obviously complete), it's a bit strange. That's not to say it doesn't work as such (the crowd's right with them); I guess I expected a steadier incline. The second is that, as Ditch said, Misawa's comeback is one of his weakest. Whereas in the Kawada match John mentioned it's pretty clear to me that it's Kawada's capriciousness getting the better of him, here Misawa goes from avoiding the BDD** to hitting his Tiger Driver much quicker and easier than one expects from him. He's the king of the gradual comeback. But... once the transition is done it's great. Elbows aplenty and Misawa's facials put over Doc as much as any bump he could've taken, quite honestly. Overall, though, it's a pretty great match. That it isn't a MOTYC for me is more a testament to the year both AJ's had. Whether I prefer it to the Kobashi one... in certain moods yes; and in others no. I guess they're inevitably going to be compared. Both are great, but different in so many ways that I can't pick between them. **As for the avoided BDD, that's clearly the intent. Misawa is very deliberate in putting his leg inside Doc's. The spot they're going for is that old UWF (? I associate it with them) blocked suplex spot where they both crash out (similar to how they use the kick off the ropes spot, maybe that's where John's confusion comes in, but obviously not the exact same spot). Presumably a combination of Doc's strength and Misawa's default lightness when it came to getting thrown around, it ended up looking closer than they wanted to as if it hit (ie; Misawa is folded over). But it's not the Kobashi bump or anywhere close to what Misawa and others would generally take for it.

I thought even the biggest TNA detractors were of the mind-set that "I really want it to work, but..."?

Top 5 MOTYC at worst. Kobashi/Hansen, Hokuto/Kandori, ThunderQueen. That one could argue they had 3 better matches together (though I'd only take the one) is what happens when you get maybe the three best ever (and an able passenger) working together, and this is when they really hit their peak. It puts RnR/MX in their place (as it should), but that's about the only downside I can think of.

Whatever happened to rock stars anyway? Even Charlie Sheen is claiming to be clean.

No... it was a legitimate botch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS3M2W9_a4s 9:00... Watch Liger. Yes, he reacts exceptionally fast once Sasuke hits. Watch his body language as Sasuke trips though. That's not a guy expecting that spot.

On the subject of blown spots... something the Joshi girls did that I've never really seen picked up elsewhere is, when a spot didn't come off, they'd just slap the mat as if to say (in 'kayfabe' sense too) "well that didn't work", and either went for something else or tried it again. I swear Kyoko deliberately did it a few times to get a bigger pop when she actually got it. There'd be times (say 2/3 times on the run) where it hurt, but if it was just the once, it didn't affect anything in the slightest.

Was it Roy Keane who, when asked for an autograph, wrote wanker on the guy's forehead? It's got to get frustrating at the best of times anyway, but stuff like in the dentist, in the bathroom, out with family, etc... who wouldn't want to tell them to get lost?

As I agree with a lot of what Loss said I'll just use what he wrote, what I agree with and where I differ. All I that I'm completely with. As for the others: I don't think a wide variety of offence (let's take Misawa or Kobashi) is essential, but it's a positive. There's only so much of a guy hitting the same four/five moves that I can take. How they "interact" with the crowd (showmanship) isn't important, necessarilly. How people could say Misawa doesn't have charisma is beyond me; charisma is about pulling people in and he was always over, almost amazingly so with regards something like the feud with Jumbo that was really rushed and shouldn't have gotten over as well as it did. And I've no problem with a guy not playing to the crowd if it benefits his character (ie; a technician, say). Some of the most resonant wrestlers actually don't do much of that at all, they can "work the crowd" by what they do in the ring. I've seen a lot of guys (and if you know where to look you'll probably find the nadir of it in Britain) where it just comes off as cheap pandering and kills any ability for people to take it at all seriously and/or "suspend disbelief" in what's happening. My wrestling doesn't have to be a "morality play". Hell, the 1996 RWTL Final is pretty much the antithesis of a morality play and I don't need to re-iterate my thoughts on that match. But... for the benefit of the crowd and the drama, the match has to be worked so that one of the wrestlers is to be rooted for over the other. You can switch it over the course of the match, and there are some exceptions where both guys are so over it isn't needed (Chigusa vs. Asuka; Hogan vs. Warrior - how disparate!) but generally, like anything, there needs to be some degree of protagonist/antagonist. I wouldn't say I "love" flash pins, but they can work exceptionally well. Bret/Owen and Bret/Davey (Wembley) both work perfectly. On the other hand, I think the Bret/Davey La Magistral finish felt terribly forced and not just because Bret was clearly unpractised in applying the move. A sudden moment of comedy in the context of something more serious can work... but I think an out-of-the-blue "laugh-out-loud" line works better in literature. If we take the All Japan guys as the epitome of serious main event wrestling, I'm not sure how comedy spots would work well there. I prefer punches being treated as illegal. There's a Kawada/Tenzan match built towards Kawada cheating with the punch to take the win in the end. Actually Kawada used them to great heel effects with Misawa and others, too. Give me a devastating punch as the heel resort over grabbing the tights or feet on the ropes anyday. The one-two really needs to go away for a while, I agree. "One finisher" wrestling I just don't like, period. Yes. *** As for other things I perhaps note more than others... I hate guys who take too many steps running the ropes, or hit them in a weak manner; guys who half-arse whipping someone across the ropes or guys who just run into the turnbuckles rather than bumping them emphatically. On TV they don't make much difference, but live they can make the world of difference. Looking at the referee's hand for the kickout. I can understand in a certain situation where there's a chance the referee may screw with you. But if you're in your home company, with your home referee, etc... you can hear the timing. FEEDING. Feeding can make or break a match (especially live when the director can't help them out). Would it really be too hard to say, when working Booker T or someone doign an axe kick to not just bend over on the first shot but drop to your knee, sell it, and have him hit the axe kick as you're getting to your feet but still hunched over? That's just one example off the top of my head but I think you should always be thinking between the spots and how to best and most sensibly set it up. Don't be looking at a guy forever to wait for a spot. And don't over-feed either. Unless you're Terry Funk and are swinging yourself around like a mad man (and where it also enhances his character), guys who consciously have to do a full 270-degree clockwise rotation into all their spots just gets so obvious. Slightly related, but good directors help and hinder matches more than a lot of people realise on TV. Something like the shot where Akiyama saved Misawa on the apron (ephemerally) have been spoken of, but just choosing your shot so that the break up of a pin has the guy coming from off camera helps tremendously. Little tricks like how AJW would zoom in/out during the giant swing/rolling cradle would enhance their dizziness (though a lot of other AJW camera work would simply make me dizzy). Don't zoom in on Bret's face when he has Davey in a chinlock and anyone with half a bit of sense of wrestling knows he's calling spots. You can't put that on Bret. Similiarly, when a guy is whipping someone off the ropes, don't shoot it from a perpendicular angle so that they're facing each other on the left/right of the shot like a conversation in a movie; you know the guy's calling a spot, there's only so much he can cover himself, don't show the one angle where you can actually read his lips. Oh, and I fucking love payback spots. [Apologies for length]

Refusing drugs for essential medical reasons in the name of being 'straight edge' would be a bit like Jehovah Witnesses interpreting "don't take the blood of another man" as being against blood transfusions, wouldn't it?

I wouldn't really call Danielson great, but he flopped in New Japan in 2002, didn't really get over in NOAH, and, to my understanding at least, he could've signed with WWE earlier than he did. He certainly wasn't devoid of the opportunity.

It wasn't in relation to them, no.

Of course wrestling isn't a "meritocracy"... that wasn't my point (and it was just an aside in defence of an earlier one from someone else). But great talent *does* rise, at least to a certain level. Seriously, if there's a single wrestler we'd call an "all-time great" (or even close), who didn't get over on a big league level be it in Japan, Mexico, the US, or England back in the WoS days, I'm drawing a blank. When you're that good, there's always an opportunity. And unless you're booked horribly, that blatant level of talent gets you over, too. You might not rise above the mid-card, and you might find yourself relegated to putting over and helping the guys they see $$$ signs in front of, but you'll be comfortable. Hell, you'll probably work some main events if only because the top stars will trust you to make them look so good.