MJH

They'd planned the spot; for Vader to move. At that point in the match there's no way Shawn was ever intending to hit that move. They aren't calling anything there, it's clearly a planned sequence leading to the finish what comes thirty secondslater. If the plan is for Vader to move, and he doesn't, then that's his mistake.

Bull/Aja only teamed together a handful of times. The matches are mainly really good (and some great), but if you have to have Aja on there the partner would be Bison. The feud with Bull (8/90; Hair vs. Hair; TV re-match) and stuff like Toyota/Moreno 4/91. I really like far more of their matches than I don't (and some I'd definitely call great), but Zenjo at the time is more interesting in watching them develop than it is loaded with great matches.

Actually the "correct corner" (in WWF/E) was the one Shawn went to the first time. I'm not sure how pronounced it was then as opposed to now, but the #1 rule of working in WWE is hard-cam. Maybe not the absolute #1 but, y'know... My understanding of the intended spot was Vader moves, Shawn lands on his feet, into the switch/duck/cross to the floor and the finish. Shawn doesn't "correct" himself from jumping to land the elbow to landing on his feet. He shifts his hips slightly so he doesn't land on Vader with his feet. His intention was always to land on his feet. As for why he didn't switch and land the elbow: ignoring the idea that elbow drop is the cue to the crowd that SCM is coming and it's far too early in the WWF/E formula for it to hit, it's expecting Shawn to have pretty incredible reaction time (not to mention core strength). Shifting his feet a foot is a considerably easier thing to do. And we're talking about something happening in the split-second of the moment. Putting it on Vader by no means excuses Shawn's actions; Shawn was a douche. But, it's a match Vader knew he had to be perfect and it's hardly an exemplary performance from him all-round. He let Shawn get to him far too much.

Well, the big three would be: Toyota/Yamada, like I said earlier in the thread, have a collection of matches surpassed only by the AJPW guys. Crush Gals - Asuka's fairly "meh" for me but Chigusa is/was superb. The sheer heat makes Asuka, at least, come off as a strong babyface/underdog/sympathetic, but Chigusa is/was as good as anyone's been in that role. Mita/Shimoda - they also have the advantage in a "tag team" debate of being better than the sum of their parts (Mita was pretty great; I'm not sure Shimoda ever really was inidivually). All three have strong Top 10 arguments...

Whilst not having 'fundamentals' is a perfect reason for criticising someone (be that "playing their role effectively" or whatever), actually having fundamentals should not be grounds by which to praise someone. They're fundamentals - by definition they should be there and we shouldn't have to draw our attention to them. Besides, you can be 'perfect' at the basics... but you're still just perfectly basic.

It was the wrong way round. The only good match they had was when Perfect was heel and Shawn face.

No. There was more strong talent in the bigger promotions. By no means am I saying USWA/SMW was full of crap, they weren't at all, but on the level of WCW undercard/midcard by mid/late 1996?

a. Wrestling is NOT a meritocracy. Politics, who you are friends with and who you are enemies with matter at MINIMUM as much as talent does. Arguably more. Agreed. But talent also wins out. If we're talking PG-13 as an all-time Top 20 tag team (ignoring Ray Stevens' teams with Roy Shire and Pat Patterson and similar who we have no footage with which to judge)... is there anyone who we'd argue Top 20 in wrestling (in any aspect of wrestling actually) who hasn't achieved a certain level of big league success other than PG-13? b. During the time PG-13 came around there was very little room for "little" guys on the national level especially in prominent roles. There really never was but during the territorial era it would not have been near the detriment that it was post-WWF expansion. It is also worth noting that PG-13 were extremely small, even by the standards of small wrestlers. I agree on both counts, but perhaps WWF-aside, there's plenty of exceptions (on a global level) for any great talent. c. By the time PG-13 came around tag team wrestling was low priority and no tag team was "headlining ppv" outside of makeshift units and teams made up of individual stars (see, Outsiders). The most identifiable tag teams from their peak era (93-97) were teams like Harlem Heat, The Steiners and the Nasty Boys none of whom were main eventers in any meaningful sense of the term. I wasn't talking about being a main event, or even near the top of the card. But not even a solid mid-card role in any major company?

Whilst the idea that "Steiners > PG-13 because they won more titles in bigger companies" is a ludicrous assertion and holds no weight whatsoever in a discussion of who were, and who age as, the best in-ring team... there is something to be addressed as to why PG-13 didn't have more success if we are to sit here a decade-and-a-bit later and say that they were the (or a serious contender for) best in-ring team of the '90s in the US. Even their ECW run wasn't much. Now, with people like Lawler and Dundee, Memphis was a thriving territory where Lawler was the biggest star for life and part-owner... USWA/SMW in the mid-'90s though are/were hardly the extent of anyone's ambitions. Was their act too "small-time"? Were they too small? Were they born 10/15 years too late for what they did? Is there anyone we would agree was a great worker/s who didn't get over in a single big league environment? For all we might talk about the political backstabbing etc nature of wrestling, top talent have always gotten themselves over to at least a solid mid card spot on a big league level, right?

I outlined my basic opinion on PG-13 in the earlier thread, but I think Dylan's been pretty fair with who and why he'd put PG-13 over. There's a few I'd disagree with, but I think what this thread has really highlighted more than anything is actually how few US teams I'd certainly call "great". Now, I think if you throw in Japanese teams then there's no way they're a Top 10 team for anyone. Misawa/Kobashi, Kawada/Taue are no-brainers. Misawa/Kawada's run is better, as I suppose so is Jumbo/Taue even if it was a one-man team. Misawa/Akiyama had a much stronger collection of matches, as did Kobashi/Akiyama. Really, watching the '99 matches with Misawa and Ogawa, even if they're not all-time great matches for the decade for All Japan, they're still on a different level to most if not all US tags. Toyota/Yamada have been completely ignored in this thread, and say what you want about them as workers but their collection of matches is only equalled by the two main AJPW teams. Still on the Joshi front, I wonder where people would put the Crush Gals? I wouldn't have them Top 10, but they're better than a lot of teams listed in here and also have the advantage of being massive draws as a pair unlike anyone other than maybe the Road Warriors and even then they're bigger... From the US, you have to put MX (both) and RnRs ahead of them, as Dylan himself said; I mean they are US Tag Team Wrestling. Tully/Arn I would take too. It's a fair point with regards footage for PG-13, but partly for the reasons I outlined against them earlier, it's Tully/Arn. I think the Rockers is a good level for them, though I'd take Marty/Shawn for being that bit more familiar with them. Hart Foundation I think you can go either way although I certainly agree that Neidhart has been somewhat overrated and the team is overrated (they're not Top 10). Steiners, yeah, they don't hold up for me; that match with Bret and Owen is just a mess, they'd sooner finally get to use their Japanese offence on Owen than work a proper match. Like the Bulldogs, I can definitely see and understand where their rep came from, but, in 2011, it's eh... though I do still like the Harts/Bulldogs matches a lot. Notsomuch against other teams though. I think it's good that PG-13 are getting looked at. There's obviously a danger with these resurgencies/findings where they can often get hyperbolic, but like I said there's very few teams I've seen Dylan put them over that's made me go "wait a second...". Not Top 10 (not too far off) but better than a lot of teams who've had much stronger reps over the years - that's a rep for them I can perfectly agree with.

I guess... I just can't put myself in the mindset of someone who would be offended by it. 'Faggot' I can at least understand the furore over (even if they're not conciously meaning it in the homosexual sense which I don't think Kobe/Noah etc were... 'Woman Is The Nigger Of The World' isn't a racist song after all), or if he'd called her a 'dyke' or whatever... the soccer player Wayne Rooney had something fairly similar recently where he celebrated a goal by swearing into the camera. I don't see how it's offensive other than for the sake of being offended. Now, given the climate, I agree UFC should do something about it... but I fucking hate the climate .

Whilst I a) think there's something really wrong about being so subserviant to sponsors, wonder why 'cunt' is so offensive and no-one even bats an eyelid at 'dick' and c) if he were to be fired for swearing it would be the most ridiculous firing since Finlay's... if it's on a message board rather than even an in-the-moment tweet, it's a silly move from him to say the least, and he should definitely have learned from the whole 'faggot' thing.

I like PG-13 (though I'll admit that I'm not as well-versed in them as some people), but my problem with them, and it acts as a ceiling with me, is that I just don't buy them as being able to kick anyone's ass. Their look was just so, cheap, small-time? I don't know... indy? I just can't believe in them as a threat to very many people. It's one thing for, say, Lane's kicks to look shit and not buy into a specific part of what they do, but with PG-13 it's, like, the entire thing... maybe I'm alone in that, I don't know.

SummerSlam was different, though. In that first scenario, it's presented as a let down. With Luger at SummerSlam, they treated it as a big deal like he'd actually won, with all the balloons and confetti and whatever. I think the whole "All-American Hero" thing is only going to ever go so far anyway. I mean it's so pandering you're going to seem a goof. Hogan would reference that sort of thing, but Hogan wasn't The Patriot/Jim Duggan either where it's all they are. Bret's character was far more resonant and he'd been there so much longer building it up, I'm not sure I can imagine the Luger thing having worked significantly better, even if they had given him the belt at SummerSlam.

Actually, one of those "HHH takeover" aspects that I can see is more guys growing their hair out. You know he's of the mindset that it's significantly more visual (hence better) when they snap their head back on strikes/etc... but, yeah, Randy Orton is not "the classical pro wrestling star's look" by any means. Hell, Randy's not even a star/draw himself if recent Smackdown touring is your guide.

Of course it's Vince fucking with him. If it was Prichard, Ace, or Vince in that spot they'd've said the exact same thing. But like Flik said, does her being rejected due to her size surprise anyone? Ultimately, she's done well for herself, and I think it's actually worked out better for her in the long run. "Meltdown" aside, she's been used much better than any girl has in years. I think the segment on Monday worked really well and it's almost a shame that they can't capitalise on it.

Oh, I'm far from a Mistico "fanboy". But, it's clear to me that the other guys aren't basing him well enough for the spots to go fluently. Or, perhaps a better way of putting it would be to say they just don't have experience with those spots. Then they try and take flip bumps off the armdrags that just come off looking awkward. You can see it in, say, the hammerlock snapmare. Lucha staple; rare elsewhere. Luchadors/guys with a lot of experience in Mexico, they can base it just by using the breadth of their chest, arching back slightly. Guys who aren't (and with the exception of Del Rio, everyone whose tried it in WWE), they use their spare right arm to lift the guy by their tights. The latter looks far more obvious and just not as smooth. I mean, that's a fairly innocuous sort of thing but no one, not Danielson, Tyson Kid, and certainly not Chavo, none of them look remotely at ease doing those spots. It's to be expected. But Mistico's en pointe with his timing (he's been doing the same spots for years after all), he's clearly a very light guy to work with and manoeuvre; people putting the sloppiness down to him is ridiculous. Now if you want to argue "well, maybe he shouldn't do those spots then..." well, that's different.

They give themselves more options, though, once he's properly over. The Chavo feud makes sense as an angle, but he's been awful in the ring against Mistico. I don't see how people can be putting the sloppiness on Mistico when it's only the spots that require a base that aren't coming off. Hell, the guy did well to turn half of those spots into at least something. They obviously want his first few months to get over how spectacular he is. It's working to a point, but they haven't as yet paired him with a guy who can help him. Even Danielson who obviously has great execution generally at what he does, whilst he did better than most, he wasn't notably great at it in the way Averno/Ultimo/whomever might be. Presumably Del Rio would be a feud they're looking at, already they're billing Mistico/Sin Cara as being from a poor background. He can work between the two styles. By then you're a few months down the line, he's over (hopefully), and you have a lot more leeway than they do at the minute.

CMLL will survive through just about anything, but whilst it's exactly what they should do to help Mistico/Sin Cara (even Danielson was struggling to take the spots well), it's very depressing for Lucha fans. Even though there's certain people who'll say America (well, WWE) has had a hold on it for a number of years, this is a much bigger step, or at least appears to be, than just poaching a top star. Whose the guy CMLL are hesitant to push on the undercard because he speaks perfect English and they fear if he gets over the WWE will take him too?

To be fair, as big a fan of shoot-style as I have been for years, you could probably fit its "essential" history/development/etc into, what, maybe a four-disc DVD set: The two UWF 1 Takada/Yamazaki matches, Sayama/Fujiwara, the Sayama/Maeda thing, the Maeda shoot kick on Choshu I guess along with one or two matches from the NJ/UWF feud, Takada/Yamazaki 8/88, Takada/Maeda 11/88 (I like 1/89 as an "answer" to it, too, but my impressions from the last time I watched it was that it should be only watched as that), Takada/Backlund, something covering the Funaki push perhaps (though nothing sticks out, my most vivid Funaki match is the Nakano one), probably something involving Fujiwara (there's a great upset of Maeda somewhere that I remember) a Takada/Allbright something involving Anjoh (you have to, right?) Han/Nagai 4/93 (start of Han/upstart native) Takada/Vader 8/94 Han/Tariel 6(?)/95 Han/Yamamoto maybe (either '95 though I prefer the first, personally, as the first Han match I saw) Han/Tamura series Tamura/Kohsaka 6/98 an Ikeda/Ishikawa match (they blur for me) something from U-Style (Tamura/Kohsaka II?) I'd guess that's only about 8/9 hrs worth, maybe 10, off the top of my head. You'd probably want a "mixed" match where theyd bring in the (kick)boxers or whatever. Of course there's a lot of great stuff if you like it. I really like Suzuki as the young punk in UWF, where he'd throw dropkicks and legdrops at Fujiwara or whomever before getting killed; he had charisma even then. Something like those would never make a comp of best matches or whatever, but they're stuff you'll enjoy when watching the UWF shows through, for instance. My favourite Takada/Yamazaki match is actually their 5/89 one which no one else has ever really seemed to talk about. I don't think there's a single UWF show I can think of without one redeeming/worthwhile match, and there's only like 20 of them anyway.

24 . Powerslam definitely ran tape-trading adverts because that's how I got into trading in 1999 (there were two features on All Japan in the spring; one on Baba and then on Vader). We got our first internet connection around the same time, too, shortly after Owen died I think (which might've helped my pestering).

You could certainly argue they wasted a few urakens down the stretch, but that Splash Mountain is one of the best near falls I've seen in a while.

Therein lies the impetus for so many awful songs...

Well I certainly think there's far more "obvious" choreographing on the indies. But how "obvious" it looks with Misawa/Kawada (or rather doesn't), nor their familiarity, that doesn't detract from the basic logistics that those sequences must have been planned out. There's a difference between their sequences and, say, knowing that when an AJW girl sends you off the ropes and hits a dropkick and immediately runs off them again that you know to get up and take another and keep doing it until she covers you. The familiarity just means it didn't take them all that long to put the sequences together and eliminates the necessity to go over them point by point at half speed a la plotting an action sequences in a film. They're running through the duck/dodge/etc at full speed, landing perfectly on point together at whatever the final spot is, there's just no logical reason to think they didn't know exactly what they were doing at each and every step. That "Kawada works the neck" would be obvious doesn't mean they didn't talk about it before hand. They probably only said "here I'll spend five minutes on your neck... [transition a]... you spend five on my leg", but the general outline of the match will have been laid out; those are two important early controls, of course they're going to, even in such a passing manner, lay out what they'll entail. The match is so exact in its lay-out it's crazy to think it wasn't planned out. Not spot-for-spot in the Savage/Steamboat 376 points sense, but it's clearly a 'crafted' match, for lack of a better word. All their big matches were. You just can't work matches like that "on the fly". I don't think along the lines of a Steamboat or other older guys, particularly in the US, that that's a negative. All that matters is the end product, and no one (to my knowledge) is arguing against it being one of the best matches of all time.

I watched this show today and having not really being a fan of their series, I was amazed by how much I enjoyed this. It's by no means their "perfect" match, but it's certainly very good. Kandori/Kyoko from this show should've made the cut, too, it's of a similar (perhaps better) quality to Kong/Kansai. There's a few sloppy moments in that one but they seem to really merge together far better than you'd think given how disparate they generally are/were as workers.