Matt D

How big were the rosters in 2002?

I think such a thing existed before we started, to be honest. People view art through schools. People pick theories in order to understand the world. It's just the way of things. As for the initial thought, some people said from the get go the only list that mattered was their own. I appreciate that thought. I didn't go along with it. That said, I didn't think we were making an authoritative list that was going to change the internet either. What I cared about was the people here. When Stacey and I came up with the podcast name, we were told we weren't going to get as many listens because the global podcast audience tends to shy from lucha sounding names, and that was both well-meaning and likely valid, but that was never the point. The point was to produce something for the hundred-odd people here that we were in the trenches with who might have been interested, because that's who we cared about. That said, I have found it a lot of fun to look on other boards where this was posted, like an alien disease. What's great about the list, I think, is that for the most part, it is alien to people not here. It makes no sense to people how Hogan, Andre, and Cena can rate when it feels, in some other ways, like a "wrestling, not drawing" list. Or where Tiger Mask or Brody are if that's the case. Or how Nakamura or Tanahashi or Angle could be so low. Or how Jerry Lawler or Rey Mysterio are so high. My favorites were the big question of Dolph Ziggler! Or a board which had two pages of back and forth about Randy Orton. I think it's a list that is wholly consistent with itself, but in a way that is completely impenetrable to someone that wasn't part of the discussion. I get some sick amusement out of that.

Quick catch up: 1.) I was upset the Bounty Match did so poorly on the mid-south set until Pete told me what we had previously was clipped. The title match wasn't quite as good but that's more of a testament to the bounty match. Babyface Reed is someone I have a lot of time for and he matched up really well with Slater. I think there's something a little unconventional and Houston-y about Reed as a babyface. You don't quite shine/heat/comeback as much, but there's a lot of the crowd getting visceral kicks through him getting revenge. 2.) For Stomper vs Casey, it's still a bit of getting used to Stomper's vulnerability for a monster. It's a great act but it's one that would wear out its welcome fairly quickly in a territory, I think. Boesch really shined on commentary again helping through the long falls. I was cool with them working the holds but was glad to have Paul with us for it. 3.) Haven't seen the Sheik match yet, but it does feel like the sort of history we take for granted with this footage. How much 77 Sheik do we have? How much Tommy Seigler? Someone on youtube named Brandon Seigler posted two matches (one from Georgia in 72 one from Gunkel in 73) but we don't have a lot, right? It's not Funk vs Race but there's a lot to learn in almost every match that gets posted. 4.) I love Battle Royals. There was a tease of Wahoo vs Andre in this, just twenty seconds or so in ring #1 towards the end and I was way too excited for it. The final four in Ring #2 were a lot of fun. I wish we had another minute or two of Gino interacting with Andre but that's ok. The interview was very cool. Talk about history. Five minutes of Andre answering questions that weren't the typical ones.

It's a lot to keep track of. I just thought it was funny since it's something I learned from you guys. Speaking of Night Court, did people catch on the Gerwitz episode of the Jericho podcast and his Wrestler's court story that they actually used Kane as the bailiff? Had we known that before? Because that's amazing.

Kris not knowing about the USWA syndication thing was funny since I learned about it from BTS. Also, nothing else in the world has referenced The White Shadow three times in this decade.

I just don't get what he's saying: That wrestlers are dyslexic at best and that the form of wrestling is, at best, young adult fiction?

I think Tye could be an honest NXT draw. Which means that he's part of the collective act that people would pay to see. I really think that people pay money to sing to Bayley (or to sing Nakamura's song now) or to Do the Gable-Gable, Jordan-Jordan chants. Or yes, to do the "Ten!" thing. It's part of an interactive act in a way that the main roster isn't, and he's an increasingly valuable cog in that machine. If NXT only comes around to your city once a year, you may miss the chance to do the TEN! thing forever. I think there are a lot of people that appeals to, that ECW sense of being an interactive part of something special, like singing to Sandman's music or bringing a weapon for Axl or getting Bubba to insult you.. But it would mean absolutely nothing on the main roster.

I guess you have some more reason to look forward to those Wahoo vs Harley matches? Glad to see we're still in business here. I thought the Jones match was a solid Lewin showcase. If you want to know what Lewin is all about, this match will tell you. He's a one trick pony here, with the chops and nerve holds and what have you, but he's so persistent that it's effective. In general, I thought his cutoffs were very strong. The story wasn't the most exciting in the world, but it was a good use of Hart and of all sorts of tricks to get back to the point of karate thrusting and what have you. I always appreciate solid, straightforward wrestling. Jones worked very well from underneath too. I haven't seen too much of him but he had a good amount of charisma and helped to make both Lewin and Hart look effective. Results say this was third from the top and it was probably a palette cleanser before Brody vs Spoiler. Anyway, It's nice to see a solid showcase match like this now and again.

Nia's come a long way. I wish they would have let that scream settle in for a few more seconds but that's nitpicking.

Alpha is going up for the draft likely. Gargano and Ciampa got an upset on the revival last week to set up a title program.

How great was the Boris Malenko commentary? I want to learn more about Mortier as Montague. It was all a lot of fun and I can never get enough of Boesch's office. As for the rest... I'm just going to keep looking forward to new matches as we get them.

I'm about 1.5 hours in here. It's a sort of duel edged sword. I do think Les is engaged and adds a lot. On the other hand, this has been the most bloated episode so far and a lot of that comes from a deeper-than-usual textual analysis of Meltzer, his motivations, his proclivities, his style that goes way overboard at times, sometimes because it doesn't add a whole lot to make it about Meltzer primarily instead of the story being discussed and sometimes because the points just end up pressed in the back and forth for an extra couple of minutes longer than they should be, even when somewhat valid. I get that it's Between the Sheets and how things are reported is ALWAYS an element of the show, and an enjoyable one, but so far on this episode, it's taken center stage a bit too much and way too in-depth.

Back to Dynamite and Tiger Mask.

The match should have just been Warrior, Hogan, Sid vs Slaughter, Mustafa, Undertaker, no?

There are ways that a manager can be entertaining and engaging and effective without necessarily taking bumps, be it reactions or interference or distractions or crowd interaction. I don't agree with everything Tim said in his post, but I do absolutely agree with him that Hart's on the disappointing end when it comes to most of those physical low-impact things as well, especially when compared to his rep. I burned through Dusty/Patera before bedtime last night so it's all a bit blurry but I'm not sure I've ever enjoyed Dusty's elbows more or if they ever looked grittier. Speaking of Dillon, I thought he was really good here. The fact that he basically does it all with the cigar in his mouth is funny. Patera fed for Dusty's strikes so well, too, and he gave back just as well. Some really solid bursts of brawling. I liked the way Patera went from the leg to the neck to the bearhug too. It was a really well worked bearhug which is not the most common thing in the world. Like I said, it's a bit of a blur but it was a lot of fun. EDIT: Just looking at results, I hope we get the two Brass Knucks title matches between Patera and Manny Fernandez from 81 at some point. Manny has some interesting stuff in 81-82. A Funk match, a few Gino matches, a couple of Tully matches, a couple of Slater matches, Duo vs Chavo/Manny, Ciclon Negro/Manny, and Mil/Manny, one against Black Gordman, and short feuds with Mil and Chavo.

The gif and the reactions to it are much more polarizing than the match. Generalities are much more interesting than specifics here. I caught it yesterday, finally. My star rating would be in the exact same range if I gave them, actually.

I think the only upside to WWE in all of this is if the plan is to put Reigns over Lesnar clean and definitively at Summerslam.

There was a 2/3 falls title match between Lord Littlebrook and Bobo Johnson from NWAClassics that's worked about 85% straight.

One good thing about the brand split at least.

The Cartel is one of my all time favorite factions too.

It doesn't mean that there's not Race vs Funk on the table. 7/1/77 and 7/29/77 both happened (apparently). It's the sort of stuff that I think Boesch would have filmed and kept. It just means that we're back to waiting for it. And who knows? We might get the 82 Funk vs Stomper or one of the many Harley vs Wahoo matches (Big chance of at least one of those), which is another pairing I don't think we have a lot of.

What I was thinking about while watching was the throughlines, how Curry's punching style prepped Houston for rooting for Lothario later in the decade, that sort of thing. We really saw Johnny blade himself too, but he did it in a way that made it look like he was checking for damage or selling. There was almost a craft of its own to what he was doing. To me the best part was the sheer fury of the start of that third fall. It only lasted for a bit before they tumbled to the outside but I was smiling big watching it.

Curry vs Valentine was the perfect way to start a Saturday morning. It was a really special match with incredible heat and intensity. It's pure Houston and the sort of match that the people there almost certainly told their grandkids about. I wish we had dozens more matches with these two.

Yeah, this was the stuff. We've seen a few really good performances out of him up until now, but it's really obvious after this: Spoiler is such a triple threat. 1.) He's got the size, and he uses it so well. He's able to create a huge base on a side headlock for instance, or make it to the ropes from almost anywhere in the ring. And he's able to use it to menace to a great degree, not just for the claw and for some big power moves, or bits of leverage, a bridging pin that's angled far more sharply than someone else could do, and 2.) He's got the agility. He's doing stuff with the ropes that would be years ahead of his time to begin with, and he's doing it with such size and (thus) implied force behind it. He's able to use it on offense and to make himself vulnerable at key moments. 3.) And on top of that he's such a great, underhanded cheater. He uses the ropes for leverage, he uses Gary Hart for everything he can. He pulls the hair. He pulls the tights, and with his his reach, he can do a lot more than the average person with that. You put all that together and you overlay it with a brilliant sense of timing and of maximizing the impact of all of these things. He never just comes off the ropes. He builds anticipation to it and then he pays it off. He's so good. And Brisco's great too, of course. I like a more heelish Brisco best, but he's fiery and technical and smart here. The crowd is behind him and he earns it and deserves it, despite the fact he could just rest on his reputation. They work very well together, each one helping to unlock the highest level of what the other can do. The match starts with one of the best worked side-headlocks you'll ever see and ends with some awesome revenge leg work into the enjoyable, feel-good screwy finish. In the middle is a lot of stuff I'd rather not spoil. I enjoyed it a lot.

I'm caught up. Let me run through some quick thoughts. Jake vs Humongous: Jake at his best here, really just at the height of his power. I loved the dueling hockey masks. His body language is so good that he could have worked his whole career with the mask and been fine. The early blocked cage shots due to them meant that it mattered all the more when he lost the mask. Good stuff. Thorton vs Gino: I'm not sure i've ever seen the NWA Junior Heavyweight Belt come off as such a big deal in this era. This, like the Race vs Hernandez match, had Gino self destruct at the end. I thought Hart looked very solid here and wonder if he wasn't a step above when he was managing Gino (as he hasn't looked exceptionally impressive in Houston otherwise). Fun match. Gino was so good, so young. Boesch vs George Harris III: I think I've seen at least part of this for the Boesch special that's on youtube, but it's hugely enjoyable. Boesch was a very witty guy in his own way. It's a bit folky but it really works. I've come to love listening to him on commentary, even on his own. There was just a matter-of-fact-ness to him and he shined here. I hope we get to see more of Harris in general. He came off a bit like Dom Delouse in History of the World Part I. That use of his body type for comedic effect. Slater vs Stomper: Yeah, Stomper was great. i was even higher than Pete on the early parts of this match because the stalling and stooging was right down my alley. I actually think it was the lack of Boesch commentating that made the first fall feel a little bit meandering (which isn't a fault of the match or the service, but instead a testament to what he adds). Once the claw got locked in and it got going it became a must-see exhibition in violence. Slater's a dynamo so this was a perfect role for him. A classic.