Matt D

This is one of those things I'm curious to what wrestlers, or types of wrestlers, we see having opinions either improved or lessen. Like what sort of acts that didn't do well on the list are we likely to see people talk about? I don't know, food for thought? Maybe not even that. Right? Like Blade Runner being slaughtered in 1982, now considered a classic. Who might be the "genius who wasn't acknowledged in his own time"? Will footage emerge to reveal someone we hadn't thought about to be a complete master, and who might that be? Which one or ones of the guys we revere today will be cast aside by 2026? How high will the Miz get?

Just spoke about this on the next two hours we did, but I think the traditional iconic image of Blue Panther doesn't quite hold up. On the other hand, I think what we have had since 06 (and OTHER things we see before that in new or relooked at footage) is actually superior in a lot of ways to the traditional iconic image of Blue Panther. That's what people were voting for back in 06 though, I think, an"idea" of Blue Panther.

Angle down, let's move on to Michaels?

Better than Blue Panther, folks. The unruly horde has spoken.

I think ultimately this is match that if you read a play-by-play account it would come off better than it was in reality. The overarching narrative is that Dean will sink just as low as Triple H to accomplish his goals which starts with a series of eye pokes early in the contest and culminates with a exchange of low blows going into the finish. They also feature a call back to the Roadblock match finish where Dean barely gets into the ring to avoid a count out and Hunter goes right to the pedigree. All in all from a lay out perspective, I think the match was constructed well (although the headlock as a control tool for Dean is ill fitting). The issue is one of execution as Triple H especially seems almost casual doing certain things like side side stepping a corner charge or tossing Ambrose out of the ring. It keeps gear of the match too low to pull off a vibe that would work with Dean being frantic and keeping Hunter off balance. I don't think Matt should watch it. Tip to fan cam guys. No one wants to see you and your friends, keep the camera on the action. Keep the ring in frame. I feel like this should be an alternative to star ratings. "Should Matt watch it or not?" Thanks.

Bockwinkel vs Morton This match was a real testament to the power of selling, not just in selling the pain of moves, though there's that as well, but also in selling the weight of everything else that happens in a match. The opening stretch was remarkable for Morton's pluckiness and Bockwinkel's escalating response. We'd seen something like this in his match vs Chavo, but Bock came in with an entirely different attitude here. He started with the handshake, likely expecting to make short work of Morton, but it wasn't personal in the same way. It was just business, a nice little romp in the ring, some high quality calisthenics in front of a mostly unappreciative but at least well-paying crowd before a lovely dinner and nightcap with Robert Heenan. Obviously, it didn't work out that way. Morton reversed one move after the next, getting cheekier each time. Sure, there'd be a moment of Bockwinkel pressing him back into the ropes or locking in a full nelson, even strongly enough that Morton made sure to sell it after the fact, but he escaped again and again. As he did, his yokel confidence grew and grew and grew, even as Bockwinkel's frustration mounted. After an attempt to slow things down and regroup with Heenan failed, Bock's speed increased, his aggression increased, and it just made the backfires and Morton showing of his mettle all the more intense. It was a variation of the theme with of the Chavo match but extremely different, a similar story told a different way. It all culminated with Morton's rebellious slap and Bockwinkel's controlled demeanor finally breaking as he gave up on wrestling and went to fisticuffs first; the emperor momentarily had no clothes, but that hardly mattered because even naked, he was still the emperor and had climbed over the bodies of a hundred fallen opponents (through hook or crook) to reach his heights. While he threw Morton out to really start the heat, there was no need for a King of the Mountain segment here. He had already taken over control and now it was a matter of punishing and embarrassing the youngster for his gall. Even then, he let Morton come off as a youthful force, barely able to contain him with the headlock. While the video quality is as good as ever here, I wish we had a few different angles on the grounded headlock since Bockwinkel's facial expressions are generally the high point of that part of his act. Morton would rise up and Bockwinkel would cut him off, brutalizing him all the way until the pile driver that ended the first fall. The heat segment continued though, with Morton's desperate neck selling as he tried to keep his distance just brilliant beyond his age. There was a real sense of gamesmanship there with Morton coming off like a wounded animal bravely trying to get any edge in the fight that he could. Even into his comeback, he'd continue to sell that neck, even after he hit the momentum shifting sunset flip and took a swipe at Heenan. The nature of the match was such that the vulnerability shifted completely once the falls evened up. At that point, Bockwinkel's belt was suddenly on the line. I think the announcer even made sure to stress it when announcing Morton as the winner of the second fall. Everything up until that point had been preliminary. When Bock had a one fall advantage, he could take his time, could wrestle on his terms. Morton had just proven he could score a pinfall out of nowhere, and if he did it once, he could do it again. Morton's neck was recovering and he started to expertly target Bockwinkel's legs. I wouldn't say he had a huge variety of offense here, but instead, that everything he did looked exceptionally good. Some of that was Bockwinkel's selling, but so much was Morton's enthusiasm and focus, as well as the general sense of vulnerability that came with the third fall of a match with the champion's belt on the line and the momentum having shifted in the challenger's favor. My favorite moment in this was Bockwinkel grabbing Morton's arm when he spun for a figure four attempt. I'd never seen it countered quite like that. It wasn't an inside cradle or anything like that. It was just Bockwinkel desperate to stop Morton from locking the hold in and trying to buy himself a few seconds. The great double punch led into the finishing stretch, where they were really going at it. Bockwinkel's leg selling here was extraordinary. He could have dropped it as they went towards the finish and almost anyone else would have, but it helped frame and define his punch attempts and made that feeling that the title could change at any moment, even in and around the finish, all the more powerful. The finish itself was good, stemming from the same Morton enthusiasm that had carried him through the match. I'd seen Bockwinkel use a similar closing stretch with Martel around this point but this, again, felt different, a different shade and slightly different tone. I'm sure the fans left the arena disappointed that Morton didn't pull it off but at the same time satisfied for the earnestness of the attempt and just how close it had come. Bockwinkel, in portraying that balance between vulnerability and mastery almost certainly left them thinking that maybe next time it'd be the one (and they darn well better pay the ticket price for that show, just in case). Just another match that we're so lucky to have. Bockwinkel was amazing, first and foremost because he reacted to everything. It's as if he was working at 2x speed, but instead of using that to do more, to fit more spots in, he used it to react to things with more depth and detail than any other wrestler I've ever seen. It's sort of the difference between watching wrestling in black and white and in color. Everything resonates more. Everything matters more. You really don't know that wrestling can be this way until you watch Bockwinkel, and Morton, at this stage of his career, was just another great foil for him.

Selling matters way more than how the strike is thrown. Is that a crazy notion in a world of people who love great strikes?

Has anyone seen the two Martel matches from 95? I'm curious, but we're obviously past the fact. Someone posted them in the last month or so.

You guys are great but this is going to be a 1.5 speed listen.

The best part of wrestling is making the unreal seem real. That's the whole point. A wrestler who inspires your imagination is way better than one who really hits someone really hard.

Pillman's biggest flaw was that he didn't have the tools to work heel effectively as a single. Obviously he didn't have the chance to show what he could do as he got older and less mobile but I don't see any evidence that he would have been able to adapt to diminished physical condition as his final run on his ankle was lackluster. It's really hard to see anything in that final run in 97, but I actually think he would have been super effective in 3 minute Raw matches as a heel getting a ton of heat and sort of Eddie Gilberting it up with all the tricks. You can kind of see some of it in something like this. Where he gets by with his heat on the way to the ring, a bit of dodging, and flurries of intensity (and a chinlock but you know). I think he would have been the most entertaining guy in the nothing matches of the next two years following. At that point, he, weirdly enough, had the exact skillset needed for the bullshit crash TV matches we were about to get.

Someone watch this so I don't have to? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yGjXOpYl2o

I'm contractually obligated to watch a lot of matches for anyone SC has done Complete and Accurates for. I'm looking forward to getting to Dick Togo.

To be fair, Nash didn't have the chances that Kamala had. What if Nash was in early 1980s Memphis or able to wrestle Andre in a cage? What if he wrestled Magnum TA in a big outdoor stadium? We really have to factor in opportunity.

Pillman doesn't have Jericho's lows or his flaws, certainly. Jericho might have had the better career but Pillman was the better wrestler.

Everything I wanted from it given the date. Loved it. Comments later.

Our hero. What commitment

You must have put him fairly high.

He's still active and capable of playing fun roles. He had a pretty good title match with UG not long ago and will assuredly have fun stuff in the Elite tournament.

What's a Conor McGregor?

My argument isn't that the late stuff is ambitious but that the earlier stuff being ambitious may have led to elements of the style of upper-card matches in modern WWE. But I honestly don't know. I'd like people to poke at that a bit more.

I think there was something more referential with Jericho than Michaels, Angle, and even Benoit. Though I'm shakiest on the last one. Jericho was obviously a tape watcher and a fan and that defined the narratives that he wanted to tell. Benoit was a big Dynamite Kid fan but he comes off as more developed internally within himself. It feels that Jericho was doing something different than the others, for good or ill, but I'm not sure I can well define that further right now. It's a new thought to me. The question, I guess, is how far "at least ambitious" takes you against someone like Tito, for instance. I don't necessarily have an answer for that. Both of them have great matches and great feuds. Both of them have a strong philosophy of what wrestling should be. It's an interesting comparison to me.

My feeling with Jericho is that he broke down doors. I just kind of think he did so the Shockmaster way.

I think Jericho deserves credit for having ambition and having a strong pride in the art (and it was that) he was trying to create, even while deep within the WWE system. He continued to push up against the limits put against him. When it worked, it worked very well. Often times, he wasn't able to reach the heights that he had percolating in his own mind, but he was in an environment where others didn't even try, and where those who wanted to try, didn't have the gumption and passion to make that trying become reality. Even when it didn't work, you could see that he cared and that he cared despite the life-sucking corporate product he was a part of. I do appreciate that. We were praising Tito a few pages ago for being the best at the basics. Jericho continued to try to push past his limits. That's how someone and something, in this case, WWE wrestling, grows. I wonder how much of the end product we had in 2013, the one with Punk and Bryan and Cesaro and what not, directly stems from Jericho's attempts to push past his boundaries, as successful or unsuccessful as they were. I wonder how much it would have been harder to see as a realization without him. He shot high, with dubious aim, and he failed a lot, but you can't question the fact that he shot high even when the odds were against him and it would have been well within his best interests to shoot low and accept the status quo.

I'm excited. Heenan rarely came to Houston too.And it's 2/3 falls. Thanks, Bruce.