Matt D

We come into every match we see with preconceived notions, and I have my analytical frameworks, absolutely, but it's still not something I lead with so much as something that proves true after the fact were you to classify the matches I think are good and the ones I think are not. That said, I still try to admit context. But I'm going to use the word effective or "correct" instead of good. "Utilizing selling in order to create a coherent and compelling narrative so that what is done has meaning" should be the bare minimum, the baseline. It's the starting point. I'm not so big into modern art either, though. I think part of this argument is tied to the difference between leading a crowd and letting a crowd lead the match too, which is something Austin talks a lot about (though maybe more on the small scale than the larger scale).

I'm going to end up watching this damn match, right? Anyway, the issue with that is that it reverses the cognitive way things generally work. I don't watch a match with a checklist in hand. It's a much more internalized experience. Selling isn't about dogmatically following any sort of rules. It's about consequence, weight, and meaning. That's true for any match. In general, and this is really a separate but connected topic, at this point in my viewing life, I don't have a lot of regard for doing things that actually hurt as opposed to things that look like they hurt but actually don't. That's a handicap to a match being good to me. It's something for a match to overcome. I think wrestling should be about the collaborative illusion. I know I'm still in a minority on that though.

I don't think that is unfair, but I also believe that is a extremely narrow way to look at things. I think judging things for what they are is more important than judging them for what I want them to be. The Ishii vs. Shibata match is a match that doesn't fit into any criteria I would use to judge most matches, but it wasn't most matches. I personally think selling is the most important aspect of wrestling, but I can also see the value in this match. It wasn't the best match I've ever seen, or even the best match on the card, but I think they tried to do something a little different and totally succeeded. If I judged it like I would judge a Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat match I wouldn't have enjoyed it, but I also wouldn't be acknowledging that they were trying to have that kind of match. I'm not trying to tell anyone they have to like this match, I'm just saying judging it by some set criteria isn't fair to someone trying to do something outside of that criteria. I'm still not with you, but I feel like if I go any further down this road, I'm going to have to actually watch the match and I really don't want to, so I think we're going to agree to disagree on this and you can keep fighting it out with our young friend here.

I think it's fair for someone to say "I think a wrestling match needs to have element A, B, and C to be good. This match didn't have one of these elements, so it wasn't good." Maybe it's a narrow way of looking at things, but when we're discussing something as primal in the DNA as the nature of selling, I think it's a fair view for someone to have.

It's down to a matter of semantics here, I think.

You can consider a match successful and effective but not good based on what you value. Sometimes the right match is what you would consider to be an artistically bad match. Sometimes the right music is a very well produced, well targeted Justin Bieber/Nicki Minaj song. Sometimes the right movie is an effectively directed and scripted comedy staring Adam Sandler. They can be successful. They can be effective. You can remark on the craft put into them and their understanding of the audience. None of that means you have to consider them good.

I agree with this statement but my question is, how does a guy like Jake that doesn't have the high-end stuff fall below guys that only have like twelve matches total that anyone has seen? Guys like Pat O'Connor are going to be on lists and how much of his stuff is even on film? Someone watches five matches on YouTube and suddenly he's top 100 all-time but then guys like Jake & Barbarian get totally disregarded. Definitely some different criteria among all of us for what constitutes inclusion in the list. Which isn't even a negative as I like that the lists will be so different from one another. Batting average?

Here's one to keep an eye on: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoT5DdbAIJkRsL9rneqVrtA

He really had a hard time counting some of Reigns' falls. He really is blind!

Yep. Bryan was to build up Orton as unified champ for Batista. When that didn't work, Bryan was meant to build up Brock for Reigns.

Zoltan Boscik vs Robbie Baron 74-05-08 I've seen a decent amount of Boscik now, but generally against guys I know fairly well and know to be good (Grey, Breaks, Cortez, etc). I like him as a slight heel more than a slightly clowning face. I think I'm really high on him though. He comes off as the science professor of professional wrestling, like a sort of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy sort of character. Yes, he'll occasionally turtle or do something outright goofy, but he portrays a believable technical competence as well as anyone I've ever seen. What I really needed to do was see him against someone I wasn't as familiar with. Baron felt sort of interchangeable, bigger than some, able to hold his own, able to have fun in there. I liked this a lot as a mostly straightforward contest. Occasionally they'd stray into too much goofiness or collaboration, but then there'd be a yank on an ear or a little shot to the stomach or the knee, or a leverage move, or just a touch of struggle and the ship righted itself, the lapse accepted as part of a greater game. Let me put it this way: they inspire me to make leaps of logic and fill in gaps through what they do. At one point Boscik, who was at a disadvantage all match due to size (which wasn't played overtly but informed every exchange), put on a full nelson, a move that had little hope of being effective against Baron due to the size difference. Baron immediately reversed it into one of his own, and I fully believe that Boscik put his on in the first place just so that'd happen, because he wanted Baron's leg, which he took and used to take him down. It was just a cog in a machine but that there was purpose to it meant something to me. It always does.

The GWE taima (http://taima.tv/r/gwemarathon) is constantly running. there's been no chat activity for a few weeks but if you just want to see totally random matches with just nominees, it's not a bad resource.

All votes to non-nominated people go to Repo Man. You don't want that.

That's a big help. Thanks.

Is there an online source for results?

I didn't have strong feelings about the Battle Royal, though it was definitely solid. It would have been really ballsy if they had Dusty come back out to cost Volkoff. They could have made an over mid-carder there if they did while still building to the next match. It's not like Volkoff was lacking in heat. I liked Marty's fire at the beginning of the one-on-one segment but I really wish he had 1-2 more hope spots in there towards the end.

So that was the March Breaks vs Saint match. The May match is online as well, thankfully. And this was a blood stoppage. No one in the history of wrestling has ever liked a blood stoppage. You can put a few choice, select ones up there as near promotion killers. I thought this wasn't so bad in that regard though because it built off of the previous match in that regard. Breaks came out far more aggressively and took much more of the match, expert as always with the desperation finger in the mouth pull. One element I absolutely love about these matches is how moves are earned. Attempts early on rarely work but they may later on, not because of specific limbwork but just because of attrition and damage done. Throws are earned, and even some of Saint's fancy maneuvering needs two or three goes to get the full advantage early on. Add in the rounds system and the real sports feel that comes with it and you can get a distinct sense of desperation as a match goes on. Here, after Breaks lost a fall to a Saint counter, he came back at the face, but almost immediately was opened up again (and Saint had done a few choice knees earlier in the match, playing on the previous one). There was a whole round, almost of this, first working over the face, then getting worked over in revenge to the crowd's delight. And that was well and good in a non-title match, but it'd come to cost Saint here. Breaks came out, cleaned up, in the next round and worked over the forehead immediately, leading to tossing him over the top (which is pretty rare in the matches I've seen), a Saint blade job, and the TKO as the ref calls it. The fact that there was two match build around the blood made the finish palatable. Presumably it made for a touring match around the country after this, even if Saint never won it back? I'm just glad I saw these two in order.

Their plans don't always work out. Rock was supposed to be the insurance policy to make sure that Reigns' rumble win went well. That didn't work. If they tried to do it five more times, I'd be surprised if it worked three out of those five.

I usually watch these on the elliptical so there's no notetaking and I get into a situation like this: Jim Breaks vs Johnny Saint, 6 Rounds, Non-Title from 73 I needed to see more Saint. I've seen a ton of Breaks and very little Saint. This was as good as you'd think though. Breaks complained about his mouth early. Saint used his height advantage to keep on top for the most part with Breaks masterfully cheating to get any little bit he could. In the 4th, Saint took a beautiful, beautiful pinfall. Breaks came back in the 5th aggressively, just mauling the face over and over and over. His timing in taking advantage at the very first second is so good and believable. It all came to naught though as Saint fought back and started working over Breaks' nose just as brutally. Here came the blood which paid off the early match crying in the best way. Breaks came into the 6th aggressively, but Saint took it with an arm lift submission to win things 2-0. The crowd (and Walton) popped huge for that since everyone knew it meant that Saint was in line for a title shot. Saint was a great Breaks opponent, not giving him an inch more than he ought to and bringing that aggression in his revenge. --- See, a write up like that doesn't really add much to the world. It helps me for gauging GWE later I guess but it's Saint vs Breaks from 73. People should watch it. You don't need me to tell you that.

We'll all be saying "What a Shame" about Bayley in nine months time.

The crowd will finally turn Johnny Sorrow heel. He'll embrace it, changing his name to "Mr. Terrific" Johnny Quick and creating the Orange Goblin Digest to crap all over the 10 Things from Raw/Smackdown recaps WWE puts on youtube. It wins a Sheety Award. Motörhead goes into the WWE Hall of Fame.

I always play the "What will Pete rate this match at?" game. I had him at 3.5* so I was close.

I'm an hour into this one, ALMOST caught up on all of the BTS episodes. Listening to too many of these my favorite things are Bix correcting something he thought Kris said when Kris didn't say it at all and Kris blatantly BSing that he knows or remembers something that Bix is talking about when he obviously doesn't. I think, of the two things, it's the first that's going to cause Kris to piledrive Bix on the concrete within ten more episodes though.

Fun match. A lot of shine but all entertaining. Just as importantly, the heat on Mascaras meant enough due to how well Superstar controlled him. He had a tendency to fight back no matter what so the quick tags and cutting the ring in half meant all the more here. The hot tag was timed a little weird but I thought the finishing stretch was chaotic enough to set up the upcoming singles matches well.

They screwed up Bo. They didn't restart his arc.