Matt D

I'm not saying you can't compare it to a no DQ match in another territory. I'm just saying that there were elements in that match that the crowd would pick up on that you may not have due to a lack of exposure. It was a good match, but it also is enhanced on another level you might have missed (through no fault of your own).

They were all things that weren't done or were done differently in the months (and years) prior so the crowd would have noticed the difference. I wouldn't have noticed or mentioned it otherwise. Context matters.

1) Nord was great in 91-92 and I've pointed to the Bulldog match as a very, very easy example. I think he's actually one of the very best guys in the WWF during that period. I like him so much more than prime Brody. 2) Bigelow is a guy who suffers heavily from having his best match ever in his rookie year (or close to it) and that's a very weird hurdle to get over. I think he has lots of very good matches (I could mention a bunch from 93-95 pretty easily) and certainly did improve greatly, but that's one of those counter-intuitive things that shut the argument off with him almost immediately. i can't speak for how his ECW work has aged but my impression is that people here don't like it as much as at the time.

Caught the Neville/Graves/Regal vs Wyatts match from the Jul 10 NXT. It falls apart at the end with Regal's clearing house and interactions with Harper not looking nearly as good as it ought to have but the early shine and long heat on Neville are both really good. It's easily the best I've seen Rowan. He looked actively pretty good at parts which makes me think his biggest problem is knowing what to do in brawls and random attacks. FIP with flashy hope spots is a pretty good role for Neville too.

I know some people feel strongly about only watching wrestling on their TVs and not their computers or what not (and for those people, Will might have some interesting ideas to discuss with you), but it is astoundingly easy right now to find pretty much all there is of Buddy in Portland for 1979 and the first half of 1980 on youtube and there isn't a single person on this specific message board that shouldn't drop at least half of what they're watching (presuming the other half will be lucha) and just watch chronologically. I can't imagine a better use for your wrestling watching time.

Alright, this is really tough. Both guys could work an incredible variety of matches. Maybe Buddy could go a little harder than 40+ year old Bock but considering the way Bockwinkel would pinball for Verne or the intesnity he showed in his babyface matches vs Larry or Hansen, it's hard to really put them too far apart. Bockwinkel always came in with a plan and his matches almost always made a lot of sense, but Portland was a territory that was more logic driven than any place in the world. Buddy was certainly more innovative in moves, counters/transitions and I'd say in finishes too but part of that was the nature of the weekly format in Portland which is something Bockwinkel was not beholden to. Both guys could have great matches with subpar talent. Both guys would have matches that looked wildly different and told different stories. I think MAYBE Bockwinkel had a wider range of character and that's not a slight against Buddy who had a real consistency of character that played into the logical nature of his matches. It's just that Bock would portray a wider range depending on his opponent. Sometimes that's a pro, sometimes it's not. I don't like a lot of the Hogan and Verne matches, to be honest. I don't think Buddy would have wrestled those matches that way either. He's hugely giving but not so much so that the match means less for it. Both guys were amazing tag workers with Buddy really standing out for his antics on the apron, the likes of which I've never seen anyone else do, and integrating new tricks all the time and Bock for his near perfect ring positioning and timing. Buddy may have been slightly better at selling a bodypart but Bockwinkel's full body selling may have meant slightly more in the context of big matches. It's tricky. Bock has some longer matches with a bigger feel and Buddy has all the 2/3 falls ones. I think where I am now, from what I've seen and relative to his age, I would put Bock slightly above Rose, but once I see two things (Babyface Rose and some of Rose's sprintier work with Dynamite Kid) I reserve the right to move things one way or another. I think Bock could go ALMOST as well as Buddy but when he does, his matches may lose something that Buddy's don't. I guess I wonder if Buddy didn't have a slightly better mind for putting together matches, but I'd have to see more to be sure since Bock had one of the very best ever.

I think they could do a low impact, holds-based match which Cena wins, then have Alberto use a gimmick to demolish Cena's injury post-match in a safe way and have Sandow cash in to let Cena take more time off. Both heels get a ton of heat from it and Cena has a built in revenge feud with ADR when he gets back.

I really hope we have Dustin at the top of the card on Raw/Smackdown for the next few weeks at least.

You're a bastard. This is going to be really hard until I see Babyface Rose, but I can at least compare/contrast and will do so in the next twenty four hours or so.

Another amazing Rose vs. Martel match that I edited into my triple post. Portland is just too good. I don't deserve how good it is: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5565810.

Wait. If it'd Hollywood Hogan, can he use the weight belt?

What's even the argument for Rude? I don't remember anyone talking much about him. Main eventing WWF C-Shows and being the top heel in WCW during a pretty brutal two year downstretch?

The amount of time in that match was almost certainly Andre's choice, no?

I know three ways are hell but Show and Bryan are so good at match layout (or participating in such a thing) that I kind of badly want to see what a HITC with all three guys would look like. You people never get on board with my curiosity on this stuff. You're all "But I want a good match." pfft. We get a good match every other time Bryan is out there. I want to see some experimental wrestling now and again, dammit.

Savage being out of Survivor Series really hurts it.

You squeeze PPVS together too closely and this is what you get. They really should have added some gimmick to Bryan/Orton.

All those people are either dead or close to retirement in any practical sense.

Obviously this is all about who wins in 1986, Tyson or the Great Kabuki (with Gary Hart)?

That's a match where you see just how amazing and capable Sherri was in her role. It's almost a vacuum without her. With her, it's a little unsettling, mind you.

It didn't get bumped since I triple posted before and just edited it in, but the Aug 2, 1980 Rose/Wiskowski vs Piper/Martel 2/3 falls tag match for the vacant Portland belts is just a phenomenal match. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...t&p=5565808

The Piper vs Jesse Barr match from 80 that just popped up on youtube this week is a pretty interesting carry job. Worth seeing.

I enjoyed this a lot. It's just basically stuff I haven't seen people ask Dusty before and he responded well to it. I don't have any idea if he helped Murdoch's case or hurt it. I almost feel like confirming the "lazy" argument will mean a lot more to some people than calling him the best ever and #2 in his HOF after Andre would.

Rose vs Martel © - 2/3 Falls No DQ (Wiskowski barred from arena) - Northwest Heavyweight Championship - August 9, 1980 So on Tuesday Martel and Piper won the tag team championship. Don Owen goes on again about how the title match being on TV is due to the sponsors. What a stand up guy. Buddy still has the mask. Martel still has the belt. Dutch Savage is the troubleshooting ref. And Buddy (still wearing the mask+wig) immediately takes a powder. He makes it back in, cheapshots Martel and starts raking the back AND front. He also does one of the best looking whips to the corner I've seen. He's really on top of him here, as aggressive as I've seen him start off a match. Martel usually starts a lot stronger than this. It gets over the importance of the match. Buddy slaps on a headscissors and the fans chant for Martel, who rolls Buddy over and does a somersault out and right into a toehold which he then locks a facelock on. The mask is pretty ragged by this point but we get a great visual of Buddy biting Martel's finger. That breaks the hold and Buddy runs out (selling all the way). Martel chases him around the ring but Buddy rolls in and catches him as he comes on in. He can't stop Martel, though, and soon Rick's racking Buddy's back to the fans' elation. Bonnema's having a hard time here calling Martel Martino and an elbowdrop a knee drop. Martel is keeping on Buddy just like Buddy was keeping on him before. Just attack, attack, attack until he locks on a knee-assisted chinlock and slows things down. It's a bit of a weird base for Martel but he grinds it for a minute before eating a Buddy leg clap. Rose tries to hide behind Savage but Dutch ducks and Martel nails him with a punch before running out of the ring leaving a fired up Martel within. Great visual spot and the fans popped accordingly. What always amazes me about Buddy is how smoothly and effortlessly he pulls this stuff off. Case in point: he hides in the corner trying to get a time out, gets a kick in the rear, and then shot after shot from Martel as he flops around the ring. Finally, he gets a perfectly time knee up as Martel runs into the corner. The smoothness here is just amazing. Everything looks so good and natural and it all makes sense. He works on Martel's throat with a few hidden judo chops and then hits this really good two step dropkick, which I've never seen him do before. Martel kicks out at two. Buddy slaps on a grounded headlock and the fans get behind Martel. Martel starts to fight up but Buddy drives him into the corner and chops away. He then goes for a hip through out but Martel blocks it, hits one, this really smooth back body drop to follow, and then two dropkicks and the rana/pin for the fall. That was a really great finish for him and he should have kept it into the AWA. This was some of the smoothest wrestling I've seen out of them and for the time but it didn't seem at all choreographed. Totally the opposite. Second fall starts with positioning in the center of the ring until Buddy grabs the hair and gets Martel into the corner. He goes for a choke but Martel fights back and Buddy goes on the defensive. Martel starts clubbering and stomping the back and Buddy sells it like death. I love Buddy's jump sell when he gets clubbed. Martel hits a nice gutwrench suplex and Buddy sells. Buddy cheapshots Martel but sells on the slam attempt and ends up battered more and more. I love how he tries to press his back against the turnbuckle so Martel can't get it. It's all moot though because he ends up in the abdominal stretch. Buddy grabs Savages arm and drags himself down to the mat, but Martel is just merciless with the driving knees to the spine. I'm almost starting to pity Buddy here, especially once Martel puts the crab on. Buddy is using the no dq to its fullest not in big broad ways (like chairs) but just by going to the trunks desperately and being able to get away with it. That's how he gets out of the crab but he eats a belly to back a moment later. This is just a mauling. Martel is bringing a lot of great offense here. Buddy gets a lucky, desperate, cheap shot by picking Martel up and dropping him crotch first on the turnbuckle for the second fall, though there's a cut so we don't see the pin. This match has had really subtle uses of the no dq. Third fall starts with Buddy trying to stooge and box but getting outmoved until he lands a kick to block a back body drop. Buddy locks ont he double claw to the ribs/side. Martel's selling is pretty amazing. He has the most pained look on his face ever until he goes for the mask and as he's pulling it off it's almost like time freezing completely as the fans go nuts. There's DARK HAIR under the mask but at the last moment, Buddy gets an eyerake in. He's irate now and hits the nastiest double drop and then an elbow to the weakened midsection. Martel kicks out at two and starts to fight up from his knees with punches. Martel lands a revenge double stomp of his own, then another. This might be Martel's best offensive showcase ever. Buddy gets up and goes for a bulldog but Martel seels him into the corner. Martel tries to do one of his own and ends up in the corner too. Buddy goes for the belly to back into a corner crotch again but Martel flips overbackwards and does it to Buddy! He gets the pin as the crowd erupts. Awesome finish. Great match. It's so hard to put these matches against one another This one was smoother, had better offensive, and smarter use of the stip than I can put into words, plus a pretty epic finish but they're all so damn good.