Matt D

I'm about an hour and change into this and my biggest take away is that I'm excited for Charles to see more Buddy Rose. Also, the PR set feels like a surprise announcement in some way and I'm looking forward to it.

No idea how that double post happened. Sorry. Since it was mentioned:

Definitely a fair podcast, though I do think the goalposts move a bit but that's on both sides and with a lack of clarity. Flair beats Bret in a GOAT poll to me. Flair beats Bret in a "who has the more impressive career" poll. I like Bret's idea of what a wrestling match should be and and how he follows through on it better than Flair's. So it's all about how you define the question I think. BUT that's not important. What's important is that this was an unquestionably fair podcast. Neither here nor there, I think an interesting counter to Flair's week that was brought up would be June 12-13, 1993. Obviously the scope of what Flair did is bigger but Bret had the 40 minute Backlund match which I think is really good, and then the three matches the next night with both the Bam Bam and Perfect matches being really good and all fairly different. I wish we had more of the Luger single matches from that June too.

When does that new era start? Patera was effective in the early 80s in the AWA and then as a heel with Heenan in WWF as a key part of the Andre feud until his arrest. How effective is Koloff after, what, 86? That basically gives him two-three years into "new era" on Patera.

To me, there always seemed like an instability to WCW's house shows, and back to JCP's as well I suppose. Anecdotally, am I alone in this or is there a sense that Crocket/Turner advertised matches that were different than what the shows actually looked like?

For a long time, I thought it wasn't wrestled in the context of the storyline so I can see someone not liking it. I do like it now though. The Toronto house show match in February - where I saw Steamboat show the hatred you'd expect him to have after getting his larynx crushed, only for his temper to cost him - was the missing piece that made me appreciate WM more. WM3 doesn't look as good if you think the storyline is Steamboat getting his hands on Savage for the first time since the injury. But yes, this is a good choice. My main issue with it is more for what it inspired fifteen years later, which is hardly fair at all.

Does anyone not like Savage/Steamboat?

It was confusingly effective.

I thought she was great in the Dusty segment last week.

Ok I missed Raw for various reasons tonight, including new fall TV. This is one time that by reading the results alone I have no idea what they were going for in the main event. I'll catch it tomorrow, but in the mean time, yeah, someone explain to me what the mindset behind that is? Is Trips trying to put one over on people? Is he afraid of the face roster? Was he trying to tire them out? Was he punishing the Shield for losing to Bryan too much? Is he trying too hard to come off as the "Cool boss."

There's a Jack Hart vs Hector Guerrero match from Florida that I really liked when I saw it.

I am ranked #8.

I wonder if anyone would dislike Martel vs Funk from PR. That's sort of my go to match for people who are casual if I want to show them something wildly enjoyable.

Hey, Johnny, guess what no one wanted to know? That. Anyway, this will be fun. I'll be curious to see what you guys think is the best WWF blue cage era match. I actually sort of like most of the big Hogan cage matches for some reason. I think he was able to use it to play to his strengths, but I haven't seen most in forever.

Jumbo vs Orton, Jr. - 4/75 There is a lot of late 80s or AWF easily available. I wanted to watch something older but maybe not THIS old. This is from 75 so Orton's 25 or so. Opening chain wrestling is pretty good if minimal. Orton's smooth but not exactly expressive. The early headlock base is fairly well done. It looks good with Orton wrenching and them working well in and out of it of, never staying too long in one position. Orton keeps hanging on though. Best of these is a top-wristlock test of strength and here Orton's facial expressions are better. Once he stops losing he hits a quick drop toehold and moves back into the headlock. Jumbo finally escapes and slaps on an Indian Deathlock. Orton's selling is pretty emotive here. The beginning must have been a blip. Jumbo turns it into a bow and arrow pretty effortlessly for a few seconds. They reset and each guy dives for a leg and trades waistlocks, including Jumbo doing this really deep one which leads to him seating Orton up on the top rope. It looked impressive at least. Jumbo hits a pretty fireman's carry takeover and grabs and arm but Orton's back up. They're trading stuff 1 to 1. Shoulder block to armdrag. It ends with Jumbo getting the upper hand and Orton begging off. Now it's Jumbo's turn for the headlock and he does these driving elbows to the skull. Orton shrugs him off, eats a shoulder tackle and a dropkick before begging off. Jumbo'll have nothing to do with it and hits a neckbreaker for a two count before going back to the headlock. It's a little weird they've gone back to the base like this but with Jumbo in charge. They do the shoulder tackle again but this time Orton goes to the dropkick but misses. Back to the grounded headlock. Lots of cute parallels in this match. Orton has interesting ways to try to get out: turning into the pin, multiple knees to the skull. They're keeping it engaging at least, but I'm not sure it's what i want for this part of the match. Finally Jumbo runs him head first into the corner and they start trading blows. Orton gets the better with a few knees and hits a suplex, goes for a pin, and hits a slam but then misses a big elbow. Orton ends up in an abdominal stretch, but hiptosses his way out. Jumbo goes for the headlock again but this time Orton hits a belly to back for a two count. Give the match, that probably should have been the finish. This time Orton hits the drop kick for another two count. Another Orton headlock leads into late, late match rope running and a reverse monkey flip by Jumbo. Jumbo hits the butterfly suplex for the win. Well, I think what they did was well-excuted and all of it was interested. The parallels gave at least the illusion of storytelling though maybe not storytelling itself. It was a little disjointed but I think you can easily tell that Orton was pretty talented at 25.

I could suggest a few matches probably if so, though some of my notes were on the old board.

Man, it's been two weeks since more Buddy was posted, but here it is. I'm pumped for it. Apparently Rip ate the fall in the six man so we're ROBBED of a Rose/Rogers/Wiskowski faction. Ah well. Rose/Wiskowski vs Sheepherders - 2/3 Falls - July 5, 1980 - Non-Title Sound is a little muted which is strange for these, but we'll do our best. Face Sheepherders are fun. Butch is dancing along to the "We Want Butch" chants. He's the only man in the world who can sell punches by moving his jaw like he was chewing. Anyway, Wiskowski tries outpunching Miller only to get beaten and slides through the ropes comedically like they were, well, a slide. They do a cute little spot where Rose gets knocked off the apron before the tag and then after the tag. He still has the mask. He draws Williams into the corner, does a cheapshot kick but gets reversed into the corner and Williams starts to dismantle him with strikes. Finally, Wiskowski draws Butch in and as the ref gets him out, he hits a cheapshot on Williams from the outside and the heels take over. Long and uninteresting chinlock on Williams from Wiskowski until Luke uses the hair to get out. Quick tag to buddy cuts off the hope though. Heels are cutting off the ring. Wiskowski's headlock punches are great. They do a parallel spot from before where Ed takes out Miller on the apron (With Buddy hitting he exclamation point on the outside) meaning that Luke, twice, can't get the hot tag. Once Wiskowski sets up a nice roll up nearfall out of it. The second time, Buddy leans in heelishly and when Miller recovers to break up a pin, he's stuck with Barr thus missing a third tag attempt by not being in the corner. He gets knocked off again and Rose attacks him on the outside AGAIN and we get a FOURTH missed tag. This is good, focused stuff as they just keep on tagging in and out and dismantling Williams and deceitfully and brutally preventing a tag. Buddy does the body drop to the shoulders, which is something I've seen Ed do, but not Buddy. Eventually Buddy cheatingly attacks Wiliams from the outside and Butch drives him away from ringside. This means that they can't prevent the hot tag and the crowd comes unglued when they get it. Butch hits his big back elbow and an elbow drop and takes the fall. Really well timed/executed/conceived first fall (And different than anything we've seen over the last year+). Second fall starts with Miller tagging in Williams, who is rightfully pissed and Buddy begging off. Buddy misses a back elbow. Luke hits a flying back elbow and then a knee drop but just for a two count this time. Miller comes back in and riles the crowd up but Buddy dives under the ropes and tries to tag. Barr prevents it and the Sheepherders each take a leg and pull Buddy back to his corner. Funny stuff. When Barr complains, Buddy almost gets the tag again but is cut off hilariously. The transition is fun. Buddy takes two knee drops to the inside of the thigh by Luke and kicks out of a lateral press. Then he grabs Williams' head and claps his legs around it, stunning him long enough to get the tag to Wiskowski. Clever little ring general move out of Buddy. Ed batters a bit and slaps on a chinlock. It's a good camera angle and Luke's expressions sort of make it interesting. Buddy draws Butch in from the apron and then blindsides him to the outside when Barr yells at him. Buddy keeps on Miller outside meaning that when Luke goes for the tag, there's no one there. Heels keep on Williams including a beautiful elbow drop by Buddy and the big diving headbutt from Ed. Buddy keeps Miller from entering the ring from the outside and that's the second fall. It's really cool they went back to their original tactic. The diversity in these matches is amazing. I've seen dozens of tag matches put of portland in 79-80 and this is the first time they've done anything like this and they build the entire match out of it. It's an element of Rose and these matches that you'd never ever know if you didn't see all of them like I'm doing but it's downright amazing. The variation in these matches while keeping everything logical and grounded and reaching such high levels of storytelling on a weekly basis is like nothing I've ever seen or heard of. Between falls, Buddy keeps going to the top and teases jumping off but doesn't get to because Miller gets up or Barr gets in his way. Third fall starts with Williams still beaten up. Buddy shoulder shrugs him out through the bottom rope and they keep on him on the outside until Miller can come and protect him with a nice brotherly hug. Heels draw Williams back to their corner and doubleteam (one holds, one hits). Williams fights back but loses to the numbers' game. This time though, Buddy goes for a big knee off the ropes and Luke moves, meaning that Buddy hits Wiskowski and we get a hot tag. Everything breaks down. Heels are whipped together and Ed goes flying athletically through the ropes. Sheepherders hit the DOUBLE GUTBUSTER which I think is the first time I see them do that. Williams won't leave the ring though and this gives Buddy time to get a chair and start to clear house. He gets DQed but they open up Miller with it. Buddy throws Barr out of the ring but Piper comes out with a chair to clear the ring. Buddy and Ed keep trying to attack from the outside. The fans are so riled that some get involved. Bonnema: "You wouldn't go to a football game and make a tackle." Etc. Anyway, my gushing about variation and switching things up aside, this was a lot of fun. The heels had a tactic which worked for them most of the first fall, backfired leading to the fall itself, and worked wonders leading to the second fall before everything broke down at the end. Great stuff as always. The post match sets up a Cole Miner's Death Match with Piper as ref.

What always amazed me in the 80s was the sheer amount of money that JCP was charging for a show on video.

People should go out of their way to watch the Dr. Tom match just to see how he puppets the other guy around through the matwork.

What he created was more marketable to the mainstream than what they were creating though. I don't think you could have a Ric Flair and the Four Horsemen cartoon. Or Jim Duggan vs the Russians cereal. I'd love to see Bill Watts on MTV in 1985 though.

And as an outlier - I thought their commentary on the Bret/Shawn cage match was sub par with Polo just nagging about the same thing over and over. Took away from the match a bit. You obviously don't want Gorilla/Polo on a serious match. You do want them on Damien Demento vs Tatanka.

His natural setting is generally "Lebowski."

http://www.youtube.com/user/WorkhorseWWE?feature=watch So, I don't know how long these will be up. Catch them while you can. They give me some level of hope though. So far i especially enjoyed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVxhRlFhVzA and actually, But I have a ton more to watch. EDIT: Obviously this one - This is good too:

Pro Wrestling USA?

I've always kind of wondered this: Does Lawler have any idea that at least a subsection of people think so highly of him as a worker? Not as a presence or as "The King." It used to be such a small minority and now it's not.