Matt D

I've got very little to say about the back half. It was sad seeing you guys optimistic at the start of the Crusher/Baron match knowing where it goes. Johnny Boogie Woogie Sorrow being depressed by a match is a sad thing indeed. Kris' subdued marking out for the front chancery in every match was good. Larry Hennig did that shitty collision transition again in his match btw thus somehow invalidating it in both matches he did it in. My least favorite spot on the entire set I think. Well, you know, past the worst offender of the 80s in that that shitty cage match to come. 1. King Tonga, Masked Superstar, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter (Cage Match) (4/21/85) 3. Mr. Saito vs. Rick Martel (4/24/85) 7. Bobby Duncum & Billy Robinson vs. Jim Brunzell & Tonga Kid (4/21/85) 10. Nick Bockwinkel & Mr. Saito vs. Verne & Greg Gagne (4/21/85) 12. Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens vs. Larry & Curt Hennig (4/24/85) - my working #128 13. Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts vs. High Flyers (5/23/85) - My working #146 14. Michael Hayes & Buddy Roberts vs. Da Crusher & Baron Von Raschke (6/13/85) - My Absolutely, without a doubt #150. I will listen to the next one tomorrow.

I think you guys should do a podcast of Johnny watching Highlander. I'm glad you guys went there with the Martel hard head joke. Will is slowly learning to own it. I wish that Robinson stuck around and served as DeBeers' second. I'm not sure I've ever seen Heel Mulligan either. I have seen a great Billy Robinson pro wrestling USA promo where he's handling Kamala though. I think the Tonga Kid tag will be right in the middle for me. Second match I thought the beating on the heels went a little long. Nice to see Johnny finally give Greg some credit. I did like the sleeper war though. And the crazy post match was nuts. There should have been some team up of Fritz/Watts/Bruno/Verne and Jerry Jarrett vs the best that Adnan/Akbar/Blassie had to offer in the 80s. I love the Tonga/Superstar cage. The cage here is used to further the story, as the great equalizer. It's not just a bunch of meaningless violence and blood. Easily my favorite cage match on the set and one of my favorite ever. There is a Slaughter/Lanza vs Tonga/Superstar match that goes a long time, Will, but I'm not sure I saw it. Blackwell's selling is great too. Really, this is the only cage match so far on the set where everything really makes sense and everything really matters. It's a great mix of irrational hatred and blood with really strong face in peril segments. None of the previous cage matches even come close. You guys whining about the lack of heel blood is probably what I sound like when I get pissed off with late match shine legwork in a cage match I guess. This is my #3 btw, I love the first Slaughter AWA promo too where they talk about the Sheik and he doesn't realize they're not talking about Iron Sheik. "WHAT! There's ANOTHER Sheik?!" Imagine the rest of this set if they kept working Winnipeg. I'm with you guys on headlocks, and thought it was interesting here that the heel started off putting on the hold when most matches on the set had the face controlling early. Johnny being a Saito/Martel Apologist is funny. Who possibly listening to the Wrestling Party best of the 80s AWA PWO affiliated podcast is going to complain about guys working a hold instead of going for more ACTION. I'm with Kris on the fact that Martel NEVER hit that slingshot splash on the set. I've seen jobber matches where that was his actual finisher though so I felt better about it after seeing that. It's like Greg Gagne winning a match with a sleeper. Glad you loved Martel grabbing onto the mat too. That was awesome. Martel/Saito is my #20. Doesn't it suck we lost years of Saito's career? Martel is one of the best sellers of the 80s. No question.

I love when the dog walks on by at the end.

I got today's date wrong too. I had it right in my cheat sheet. I've asked Loss to fix. thanks.

You know, late 1987 is a bit of a black hole for me too, so I had no idea this match existed. I also didn't realize Simmons was around so early. Moreover, I didn't realize he was teaming with Gilbert like this. So the story here is that this match was supposed to be Sheepherders vs Fantastics. There had been a semi-final tournament match with Simmons/Gilbert vs the Sheepherders which is out there to watch too but I didn't have time to see it. Sheepherders won though. Then they went to New York to be the Bushwhackers and that meant Simmons/Gilbert end up in the finals. Parv would tell you that this was a very good thing indeed. To me, this is a match just full of stories: Simmons' strength vs the Fantastics' Speed Fantastics' experience vs Simmons inexperience and Simmons/Gilbert's inexperience as a team The Babyface vs Babyface nature of Gilbert vs Fantastics. Gilbert getting more and more frustrated when he gets outwrestled and his escalation into more complex moves and counters. The Armwork on Gilbert and Eddie's desperate attempt to escape. The impending time limit, which even has JR a little confused. and Eddie's pride that leads to the finish. That's a hell of a lot of stories even in a 27 minute match and some of them pay off better than others and they don't all dove tail completely. There's enough going on here though and just enough connect and just enough pay off that what we end up here is a really interesting match. They use Simmons very smartly. If anything the things I'm not sure he should have been doing like some of the chain wrestling attempts one can kayfabe chalk up to his inexperience. Everything after the injury is actively great.

I'm allergic to Von Erichs and crowds that want to sleep with them. Actually, I really loathed most of the Freebirds in AWA, so that this was pretty good really stood out to me. It's exactly the opposite effect of what you were feeling.

I remember really liking the Freebirds six man.

it's ironic that a canadian ring is white

I wasn't necessarily saying that in a negative way for that specific match. I know I zoned out during the bear hug while watching that alone, which might not have happened in a group setting. Me zoning out on a match doesn't necessarily mean that it was bad by any means, just that my brain went elsewhere.

Crusher Blackwell vs Blackjack Mulligan Bounty Match 1978 Mid-Atlantic Wrestling Best Mulligan match I've ever seen. Apparently the Baron had attacked Mulligan before the match and he's bandaged up. Blackwell is dressed like an 80s He-Man villain, a member of the Horde or something? A Halloween pumpkin themed supervillain? A giant oompa loompa? I have no idea. The story of this is real simple. Blackwell MAULS Mulligan with all sorts of crazy fat man offense including the heatseeker sideways diving headbutt. Mulligan fights back with heated punches with about 70% of the intensity he should have but he's selling so it's sort of okay. There's a ton of Blackwell honing in on the cut but it's hard to make out the color. Finish is Mulligan getting on the claw and the end fight over it, with Blackwell fighting back with body blows is just epic. Worth seeing.

I did like Curt's screaming. I did not like Saito just being a lump. And in general I might not have minded it but AWA was such a hold-based promotion and almost all of them were worked as a rule. It's one of maybe ten holds on the whole set I didn't feel was worked well. Larry does really stall all the time, but it's great. It's a tool just like Lawler's heel chain stuff. He doesn't have to stall. He chooses to stall. And really, in these matches when he's a little bit younger than when a lot of people remember him from, he was like a shark who sensed blood when he got his opening. The interesting thing in his matches is how the faces deal with it. Wait til the first Bock vs Larry match. I'm guessing that's another match that was helped by watching in a group. 1. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel (3/28/85) 2. Nick Bockwinkel & Mr. Saito vs. High Flyers (3/7/85) 3. Mr. Saito vs. Curt Hennig (3/28/85) 6. The Road Warriors vs. High Flyers (3/28/85) 7. Rick Martel vs. Jimmy Garvin (3/7/85) 8. Bob Backlund & Brad Rheingans vs. Butch Reed & Larry Zbyszko

Martel is a really frustrating case. That said, he still has a good amount of really solid face matches in WWF, so maybe it was the heel turn that crippled him. THAT said, watching Hennig as heel in AWA and then as a heel in WWF and especially watching that Hennig/Martel tag match from Japan, you really see how they were neutered. There is drive and the cream rising to the top but when you're getting obviously paid a lot of money to do something a specific way, you do it a specific way. The Garvin match is a little forgettable for me, and I think it was a fairly strong feud if you watch the PWUSA stuff setting it up. To me, the biggest takeaway was that Garvin should have jumped to Vince instead. He would have fit right into the Rock'n'Wrestling era. High praise from me is the shine period of the Roadies match feeling like one of the really good Demolition vs Small Guys shines, where the faces would use quick and effective limbwork to CONTAIN the monsters, where you get the feel that one mistake and the heels will overwhelm. That's a huge majority of Demos vs Rougeaus/Bees/Bulldogs/Strike Force shines and that's one of the reason I enjoy them so much relative to other WWF tags of the era. There's a reason for why I like what I like dammit. Almost all of the Demos vs small, quick guys matches are worked that way but with enough resistance by the Demos that it doesn't feel like standard pointless WWF Heel in Peril. Ok enough of that. Sorry. I'm done, promise. My guess is that the Warriors here are giving so much because it's Greg, but it really works and the Flyers DO have the credibility to make it work since they've survived through some of the wars earlier in the set. I hate the finish of that match. What's the point of making a big deal of sending Ellering away if he's just going to come back. It's one of my least favorite finishes on the whole set. Saito vs Hennig is sitting at #27 for me. There was a lot I liked here but I pretty much hated the nerve hold. I thought Curt's intensity was great and Saito was so good in his role. The side commentary about "giving the fans what they want" is important, but I don't think it has a lot to do with what we discuss. It's not really an argument that is useful to what we do here. We have our own norms here. They're not always the same. Some of them can be universally applied. I think all of us can have a discussion with each other. We talk the same language here and understand each other even if we're not always talking about the same things. And literally just as I was typing this, Will shoots out another shoutout to me saying something pretty damn similar, so that was weirdly timely. I have the Martel match as the #2 Bock-Martel match on the set and it's in my top 10, though not as high as the first, though it does have probably my favorite moment on the entire set which pushes it up. I'm glad you guys caught it. It's just such a brilliant way to use a crowd to one's advantage and shows such an understanding of the art of pro wrestling. I probably have to rewatch stuff around it on my list.

Right from the get go, I think Johnny P offers something different, because while he's an insider in a lot of ways he's not necessarily an active part of the board or DVDVR so it's an outside voice. And while I like the podcast and it's really highlighting matches I want to rewatch, what I really am a fan of is the project, because to me this is the bravest of the bunch and is moving the needle more than any other. I think Saito/Bock vs High Flyers gets points because it's one of the most traditional tags on the set, but still highlights so much of the AWA-ness. Bock the bond villain (or Mary Tyler Moore supporting character) and Oddjob vs the world's most unlikely but still super over bj tag team. It has all that AWA struggle over holds. I think it had one of the best hot tags of the set, one of the best FIPs and a very good finish for the set. It's not the spectacle that some of the Rose/Somers stuff is but it's really solid. Also, I loved that crab spot too. It's sitting pretty at #13 on my proto ballot.

Dream Team vs Islanders - 11/24/86 MSG I was actually looking for the new Dream Team match because I figure people hadn't seen it recently, but hey, I guess we'll go with this. Lots of stalling and breaks to start. I actually like how Johnny V always went to the announcer booth. Hammer begs off after trying an elbow to Haku's skull. I love how Valentine sells the whole body on the Atomic drop, first the head then the back. Tama's offense on the shoulder looks good. Valentine's great at begging off. It actually helps the shine stay out of HIP territory since Valentine breaks it up with stooging. Beefcake comes in and we really ought to have the heels take over. Instead we get more armwork, some clumsy but energetic back and forth. Beefcake stalls too and does his own backwards flop, but we're in the land of heel in peril diminishing returns here. Beefcake does some little stuff ok in an attempt to counter wrestle, but it's not exactly compelling. We get a lackluster heel tag as Beefcake just walks over while in an armbar, and Valentine takes over with a really cruel tombstone. A bit of clubbering on the apron and a kind of lame cross body hope spot since we'd already seen that before in the match. I've seen Tama look better. Beefcake taunts Haku pretty well. He's been at this for a few years now and does a pretty good job controlling the ring even if his offense is sort of haphazard. We get a hope roll up out of a figure four attempt, but Valentine nails Haku on the apron to help prevent the hot tag. It leads to a reversed supletx and the real hot tag. Haku is pretty good demolishing guys. Things break down, Tama gets crotched behind the ref's back, and a hundred years later we get a pin. This wasn't very good.

I'm in the valley of death here. Greg Valentine vs Don Muraco, 06/06/88 Let's see what ol' Greg can get out of Lazy Don. Shine segment is actually a lot of fun. They keep meeting up only to have Muraco outwrestle Hammer. He looks good here, putting intensity into a lot of what he does including a good backslide and some other fun stuff. Valentine gets increasingly frustrated until he hits a cheapshot in the corner and takes over. He hits some nice looking blows before slapping on a chinlock. This isn't all that bad though as the crowd is into it and Muraco sits in it exactly as long as he should have before hitting some huge elbows to get out. It's just a hope spot as we have an inverted atomic drop to transition and I'm so glad we don't go right back to the chinlock. Oh wait, nevermind, after some awesome skull elbows, we're right back to it. For some ungodly reason the crowd is still sort of into it until Valentine lays down with it, at least. Muraco's fighting a bit, but it's pretty lame. No, actually Valentine does a pretty good job of switching it up with a knee, an attempt to pin and a drape over the top rope. It makes the chinlock better since it feels like it actually WAS a wear down. Good on Valentine. One chop too many and Muraco gets pissed and starts charging Greg down. Greg takes a powder and we go to break. We come back and there's barely any cut at all. Valentine lures him into the corner and takes over with some cheap knees. Greg dismantles Muraco with a slam, a top rope clubber, a elbow, before tossing him out. Greg pummels Don on the apron and he's really laying it. And then we get an Abdominal stretch which Monsoon shits on. The leg is not properly hooked and they're sweating too much. Greg goes to the top rope and immediately gets caught but hey, it keeps things moving. Hammer goes for a roll up but gets kicked in the face, which pisses him off so he goes for a choke. Muraco gets some knees up a moment later, though. Hammer back to the top but this time. Muraco catches him. Nice call back. Flair Flop. Transition. Muraco unloads pummelling and chucking Valentine around. Hits a big shoulder breaker which Valentine sells with quiver legs. Greg escapes out but Muraco follows and Greg nails him first on the outside and then on the inside for another transition. Big elbow to the skull but Muraco gets a leg on the rope. Valentine goes to start working on it but Muraco moves. Valentine tries a slam and gets falled on. We get a ref bump, a funny elbow drop on him. Muraco's totally out of steam at this point and does the worst shoulder into the corner you'd ever see. Tries it again and Valentine takes over with a knee and cheap pin but the ref calls for the bell. They give the match to to Muraco for the funny elbow on the ref. Anyway, this was easily the best face Muraco match I'd ever seen. He was dead to the world at the end,but for most of it they did a pretty good job and Valentine was great on offense.

The 9/30/84 one of theirs on disc 3 is my favorite, so double back for that, but I read my write up of the one for 3/28 and I specifically talked about them doing exactly what you were talking about, so I figure you'll dig it.

That's what they would have done in 98. They would have spun this, doubled down on the media exposure, and somehow made it into a boon to them. I'm not saying they should do that, mind you.

Man I was enjoying the interplay in the podcast so much that I had a hard time picking out exactly what you said.

Honestly? I know everyone wants Henry in the role but part of me thinks this would be a great fix to the Punk problem. I think it would elevate Del Rio and the World title at this point.

That is some RVD timing right there.

The outro is painful too.

Jerry Lawler's heroic comeback match.

It's not the boring chant. I agree with you guys on that. I don't generally care about the crowd either. It's one of those things that can add but not subtract, to me. Here, though it's all about how Bock responds to it, which is an element of performance and IS something I care about, and in this specific moment, something that's such a no-brainer but that I've also never, ever seen before.

Was it Johnny P who talked about going in between holds and action on the last one and how he digs that? The 3/28 Martel match is really built like that. Hold/Hope spot/Hold, so he ought to like that a lot. Also, Will, I know you listen with sound. The best moment on the entire set is in that match when Bock turns the boring chants on Martel.

There's a Fuji vs Morales match from the mid 70s where he's actually pretty impressive.