Matt D

I did like Curt's screaming. I did not like Saito just being a lump. And in general I might not have minded it but AWA was such a hold-based promotion and almost all of them were worked as a rule. It's one of maybe ten holds on the whole set I didn't feel was worked well. Larry does really stall all the time, but it's great. It's a tool just like Lawler's heel chain stuff. He doesn't have to stall. He chooses to stall. And really, in these matches when he's a little bit younger than when a lot of people remember him from, he was like a shark who sensed blood when he got his opening. The interesting thing in his matches is how the faces deal with it. Wait til the first Bock vs Larry match. I'm guessing that's another match that was helped by watching in a group. 1. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel (3/28/85) 2. Nick Bockwinkel & Mr. Saito vs. High Flyers (3/7/85) 3. Mr. Saito vs. Curt Hennig (3/28/85) 6. The Road Warriors vs. High Flyers (3/28/85) 7. Rick Martel vs. Jimmy Garvin (3/7/85) 8. Bob Backlund & Brad Rheingans vs. Butch Reed & Larry Zbyszko

Martel is a really frustrating case. That said, he still has a good amount of really solid face matches in WWF, so maybe it was the heel turn that crippled him. THAT said, watching Hennig as heel in AWA and then as a heel in WWF and especially watching that Hennig/Martel tag match from Japan, you really see how they were neutered. There is drive and the cream rising to the top but when you're getting obviously paid a lot of money to do something a specific way, you do it a specific way. The Garvin match is a little forgettable for me, and I think it was a fairly strong feud if you watch the PWUSA stuff setting it up. To me, the biggest takeaway was that Garvin should have jumped to Vince instead. He would have fit right into the Rock'n'Wrestling era. High praise from me is the shine period of the Roadies match feeling like one of the really good Demolition vs Small Guys shines, where the faces would use quick and effective limbwork to CONTAIN the monsters, where you get the feel that one mistake and the heels will overwhelm. That's a huge majority of Demos vs Rougeaus/Bees/Bulldogs/Strike Force shines and that's one of the reason I enjoy them so much relative to other WWF tags of the era. There's a reason for why I like what I like dammit. Almost all of the Demos vs small, quick guys matches are worked that way but with enough resistance by the Demos that it doesn't feel like standard pointless WWF Heel in Peril. Ok enough of that. Sorry. I'm done, promise. My guess is that the Warriors here are giving so much because it's Greg, but it really works and the Flyers DO have the credibility to make it work since they've survived through some of the wars earlier in the set. I hate the finish of that match. What's the point of making a big deal of sending Ellering away if he's just going to come back. It's one of my least favorite finishes on the whole set. Saito vs Hennig is sitting at #27 for me. There was a lot I liked here but I pretty much hated the nerve hold. I thought Curt's intensity was great and Saito was so good in his role. The side commentary about "giving the fans what they want" is important, but I don't think it has a lot to do with what we discuss. It's not really an argument that is useful to what we do here. We have our own norms here. They're not always the same. Some of them can be universally applied. I think all of us can have a discussion with each other. We talk the same language here and understand each other even if we're not always talking about the same things. And literally just as I was typing this, Will shoots out another shoutout to me saying something pretty damn similar, so that was weirdly timely. I have the Martel match as the #2 Bock-Martel match on the set and it's in my top 10, though not as high as the first, though it does have probably my favorite moment on the entire set which pushes it up. I'm glad you guys caught it. It's just such a brilliant way to use a crowd to one's advantage and shows such an understanding of the art of pro wrestling. I probably have to rewatch stuff around it on my list.

Right from the get go, I think Johnny P offers something different, because while he's an insider in a lot of ways he's not necessarily an active part of the board or DVDVR so it's an outside voice. And while I like the podcast and it's really highlighting matches I want to rewatch, what I really am a fan of is the project, because to me this is the bravest of the bunch and is moving the needle more than any other. I think Saito/Bock vs High Flyers gets points because it's one of the most traditional tags on the set, but still highlights so much of the AWA-ness. Bock the bond villain (or Mary Tyler Moore supporting character) and Oddjob vs the world's most unlikely but still super over bj tag team. It has all that AWA struggle over holds. I think it had one of the best hot tags of the set, one of the best FIPs and a very good finish for the set. It's not the spectacle that some of the Rose/Somers stuff is but it's really solid. Also, I loved that crab spot too. It's sitting pretty at #13 on my proto ballot.

Dream Team vs Islanders - 11/24/86 MSG I was actually looking for the new Dream Team match because I figure people hadn't seen it recently, but hey, I guess we'll go with this. Lots of stalling and breaks to start. I actually like how Johnny V always went to the announcer booth. Hammer begs off after trying an elbow to Haku's skull. I love how Valentine sells the whole body on the Atomic drop, first the head then the back. Tama's offense on the shoulder looks good. Valentine's great at begging off. It actually helps the shine stay out of HIP territory since Valentine breaks it up with stooging. Beefcake comes in and we really ought to have the heels take over. Instead we get more armwork, some clumsy but energetic back and forth. Beefcake stalls too and does his own backwards flop, but we're in the land of heel in peril diminishing returns here. Beefcake does some little stuff ok in an attempt to counter wrestle, but it's not exactly compelling. We get a lackluster heel tag as Beefcake just walks over while in an armbar, and Valentine takes over with a really cruel tombstone. A bit of clubbering on the apron and a kind of lame cross body hope spot since we'd already seen that before in the match. I've seen Tama look better. Beefcake taunts Haku pretty well. He's been at this for a few years now and does a pretty good job controlling the ring even if his offense is sort of haphazard. We get a hope roll up out of a figure four attempt, but Valentine nails Haku on the apron to help prevent the hot tag. It leads to a reversed supletx and the real hot tag. Haku is pretty good demolishing guys. Things break down, Tama gets crotched behind the ref's back, and a hundred years later we get a pin. This wasn't very good.

I'm in the valley of death here. Greg Valentine vs Don Muraco, 06/06/88 Let's see what ol' Greg can get out of Lazy Don. Shine segment is actually a lot of fun. They keep meeting up only to have Muraco outwrestle Hammer. He looks good here, putting intensity into a lot of what he does including a good backslide and some other fun stuff. Valentine gets increasingly frustrated until he hits a cheapshot in the corner and takes over. He hits some nice looking blows before slapping on a chinlock. This isn't all that bad though as the crowd is into it and Muraco sits in it exactly as long as he should have before hitting some huge elbows to get out. It's just a hope spot as we have an inverted atomic drop to transition and I'm so glad we don't go right back to the chinlock. Oh wait, nevermind, after some awesome skull elbows, we're right back to it. For some ungodly reason the crowd is still sort of into it until Valentine lays down with it, at least. Muraco's fighting a bit, but it's pretty lame. No, actually Valentine does a pretty good job of switching it up with a knee, an attempt to pin and a drape over the top rope. It makes the chinlock better since it feels like it actually WAS a wear down. Good on Valentine. One chop too many and Muraco gets pissed and starts charging Greg down. Greg takes a powder and we go to break. We come back and there's barely any cut at all. Valentine lures him into the corner and takes over with some cheap knees. Greg dismantles Muraco with a slam, a top rope clubber, a elbow, before tossing him out. Greg pummels Don on the apron and he's really laying it. And then we get an Abdominal stretch which Monsoon shits on. The leg is not properly hooked and they're sweating too much. Greg goes to the top rope and immediately gets caught but hey, it keeps things moving. Hammer goes for a roll up but gets kicked in the face, which pisses him off so he goes for a choke. Muraco gets some knees up a moment later, though. Hammer back to the top but this time. Muraco catches him. Nice call back. Flair Flop. Transition. Muraco unloads pummelling and chucking Valentine around. Hits a big shoulder breaker which Valentine sells with quiver legs. Greg escapes out but Muraco follows and Greg nails him first on the outside and then on the inside for another transition. Big elbow to the skull but Muraco gets a leg on the rope. Valentine goes to start working on it but Muraco moves. Valentine tries a slam and gets falled on. We get a ref bump, a funny elbow drop on him. Muraco's totally out of steam at this point and does the worst shoulder into the corner you'd ever see. Tries it again and Valentine takes over with a knee and cheap pin but the ref calls for the bell. They give the match to to Muraco for the funny elbow on the ref. Anyway, this was easily the best face Muraco match I'd ever seen. He was dead to the world at the end,but for most of it they did a pretty good job and Valentine was great on offense.

The 9/30/84 one of theirs on disc 3 is my favorite, so double back for that, but I read my write up of the one for 3/28 and I specifically talked about them doing exactly what you were talking about, so I figure you'll dig it.

That's what they would have done in 98. They would have spun this, doubled down on the media exposure, and somehow made it into a boon to them. I'm not saying they should do that, mind you.

Man I was enjoying the interplay in the podcast so much that I had a hard time picking out exactly what you said.

Honestly? I know everyone wants Henry in the role but part of me thinks this would be a great fix to the Punk problem. I think it would elevate Del Rio and the World title at this point.

That is some RVD timing right there.

The outro is painful too.

Jerry Lawler's heroic comeback match.

It's not the boring chant. I agree with you guys on that. I don't generally care about the crowd either. It's one of those things that can add but not subtract, to me. Here, though it's all about how Bock responds to it, which is an element of performance and IS something I care about, and in this specific moment, something that's such a no-brainer but that I've also never, ever seen before.

Was it Johnny P who talked about going in between holds and action on the last one and how he digs that? The 3/28 Martel match is really built like that. Hold/Hope spot/Hold, so he ought to like that a lot. Also, Will, I know you listen with sound. The best moment on the entire set is in that match when Bock turns the boring chants on Martel.

There's a Fuji vs Morales match from the mid 70s where he's actually pretty impressive.

I really liked Fabs vs Saito/Bock but I had it at #36, which is more about 1-35 being stacked. It's one I probably need to rewatch. I also have High Flyers vs Saito/Bock super high relative to this and no one else seems to have liked it nearly as much as me, so I need to rewatch that one in comparison. I've got the Brody matches in the 130s, a few spots apart. I'll rewatch things like the Lawler/Mulligan tag, but I don't think I'm going to be rewatching these. Johnny (Sorrow) pointing out that Larry was using heel tactics since he'd been a heel is pretty much his finest analytical moment. It was also good of him to admit that he doesn't care if a match makes any sense so long if he likes the work. That's ok, since it's all subjective, but it's definitely something to acknowledge from the get go. Anyway, I hated the moment where Larry let the heels take over after a shoulder block collision, which you guys didn't talk about. I've seen him do that in other matches too and it bugged the hell out of me. I mainly thought the second half wasn't nearly as good as the first half. I think this was somewhere in my 120s though I do have a Larry Hennig match in my top 50. I suppose I can watch this thing again. People on DVDVR liked the Warriors match way more than I did. I thought there was a lot of Hawk being lost and people seemed to think that it was more of a "Hawk kayfabe not knowing what to do vs the giant," and I didn't see it that way at all. I'll probably have to rewatch this as well since I have it really low. (Also, I hated both Demolition and the Road Warriors as a kid, fwiw. Huge Rockers fan. Young Pistols fan. Big Steiners fan. Big Hart Foundation fan, and weirdly enough a big Enforcers and then Arn/Eaton fan in 91-2). I have the Roadies vs High Flyers way higher, but still not in my top 50. DVDVR is temporarily down for me, so I have no idea what I thought of Hennig/Bock (I mainly have time to listen to these at work), but I have it as my working #42 just under Crusher Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Baron Von Raschke & Mad Dog Vachon (Taped Fist Match) (3/13/83). You guys weren't a lot of help, and then I actually droned you out for a while by listening to Aldo Nova on youtube. Ok DVDVR is back: Apparently I thought that there were some sloppy bits but I was able to connect the dots in a way that I bought it when I didn't in the Warriors match. I had high hopes for the Superstar match and I liked everything they did but there just wasn't enough of it. The work was all a means to the end of getting to the postmatch. On a set like this, it doesn't go that far. How much Superstar/Murdoch do we actually have? On the disc I had: 4. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (2/7/85) 5. Nick Bockwinkel & Mr. Saito vs. The Fabulous Ones (9/30/84) 9. Nick Bockwinkel & Mr. Saito vs. Curt & Larry Hennig (11/8/84) 10. Crusher Blackwell vs. Masked Superstar (3/7/85) 11. Crusher Blackwell vs. Bruiser Brody (9/30/84) 12. Crusher Blackwell vs. Bruiser Brody (No DQ) (10/21/84) 13. Crusher Blackwell & King Kong Bundy vs. The Road Warriors (11/22/84) But I was watching a ton of Olympics and not sleeping due to the new new born when I was watching those or something, so I know my ranking at the time was a blur. That said, I think that Bock vs Hennig might be another example of a match that doesn't do so well in this format. On the other hand, watching Blackwell eat offense and do his stoic frozen fat man comebacks seem to be more fun to watch in a group. Actually, Will's going to save me from rewatching the Bundy match by agreeing with how I feel about it, so thanks for that.

This is going to get me through the first few hours of tomorrow.

I don't know nearly enough about Londos.

I was glad to see your review of the blood bath. I'm looking forward to seeing your thoughts on the 60 minute match and the first and second Rockers/Loverboys cage matches. Since I got out ahead of people, I like seeing people go through the set. Granted, I've enjoyed listening to the podcasts too, so there you go.

Meaningless depth can only help a best of the 80s set whether or not it does much for how much money a promotion takes in.

That's one great thing about WWF. There are just so many matches with so many talented guys. Yeah, it was sort of an environment set up to fail, but you'll get random stuff like an 18 minute PTW Harley Race vs Koko Ware match that means nothing but is still tons of fun.

Dylan and I got in there real quick on those posts. We shaped the arguments!

I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a bunch of pretty good 86-89 PTW/MSG/Boston/MLG/etc. matches with him too. There are a bunch of Beefcake and Muraco matches sure, but there's a Jake match here and a Tito match there. A Davey Boy match. A couple of Blue Blazer matches. Etc. I might watch some stuff.

The roll up is what has me confused. That's a really strange decision.

I was kind of disappointed that there wasn't a standout Long Riders match. I like Bill Irwin at times.