Matt D

Did you dislike the mini feud with Cactus Jack and the the Lethal Lottery match when they were put up against each other (which surprised the hell out of me)? I thought that stuff aged pretty well and they have one or two good matches with Scorpio/Bagwell. I haven't seen any of their WWF stuff in forever though.

I think Papa Shango was pretty over until Bret beat him on TV. The live crowds were full of kids scared shitless.

I want to know the answer to this. Surely someone's seen stuff.

I'll definitely rewatch the Lawler tag. I didn't love the Lawler/Dundee tag from later in the set, but I tend to love Lawler. Lawler vs Kerry is in my top 20. I just think his best AWA-related matches might have occurred in Memphis.

I will second the notion that Payne is one of the most frustrating things in 1993 as well.

Who was a bigger WWF star? Duggan or Beefcake. To me, Beefcake being in the WWE HOF is a no brainer. He was a long time tag team champ, one of the top babyfaces in 87-90 and was super over. Sure, he was terrible in the ring but that doesn't matter. I'm not sure which of the two had the bigger feuds, Duggan had Sheik and Volkoff, Andre, Bravo, Haku, Savage, Earthquake, Slaughter, Nasty Boys, and Yoko, basically. Beefcake had Valentine, Honky, Bass, Rude, Savage, Dibiase, Martel, Perfect.

I'm not even sure I noticed the crowd in that match. I did in the Hogan + High Flyers six man, so it's not like I never do, but a crowd might only work as a positive to me and not a negative. Neither here nor there, but when JvK hits the hour long Bock vs Hennig match, I want him to break it down with all of his academic trope tools. I'd want to read that.

King Tonga, Masked Superstar, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter (Cage Match) (4/21/85) is sitting at #3 for me. I have the second Rockers vs Rose/Somers cage match, which does all the things the first one did right but fixes the brutally egregious structure issues at #10 currently. Of what you've seen so far, I've got East-West vs High Flyers (Cage) as my working 50.

I get why people would like the Cage match, absolutely. It's not like the Rockers/Loverboys one from 86 which is an actively terrible match due to the creative decisions they made. This just isn't much of a match. It's a spectacle. Guys beat on each other without much rhyme or reason. Sure it's full of hate, but there just isn't direction to it. They don't use the hate and the violence to do anything interesting. To me, hate and violence are means to be used create a good match and not ends unto themselves. There is no difference to me between violence/stiffness/blood and spots/movez. They're all things to be used to tell a story. Just like selling and bumping and stooging and everything else. Just a tool. If used well, excellent. But I'm not going to rate a match highly against other great matches just because they're used at all and because they make me mark out in the moment. Obviously, other people feel differently. That's ok. It's like cotton candy with broken glass in it. I like story. It's not there. I won't fault anyone for liking the Da Crusher/Gagne cage match because it's visceral and violent. Some people dig that. It might even have been the right match for the moment. That doesn't, to me, make it better than matches that have better structures and more interesting narratives even if it was the RIGHT match for the time. I'm well past the point of worrying, Parv. Wrestling isn't objective. I value things differently than other people do and like to think I back up my opinions for the most part. I'm consistent if nothing else. I'm glad you enjoy reading the views and I hope they at least make sense and you can track them. I have two cage matches in my working top ten and they are the two that tell the best story and also two that use the cage to tell a better story with better execution than at least 140 other matches.

My rankings for these matches 1.) Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Jim Brunzell (3/15/84) 2.) Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Billy Robinson (3/11/84) 3.) Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. Blackjack Mulligan & Jerry Lawler (3/4/84) 4.) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel (12/8/83) 5.) Da Crusher & Greg Gagne vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Kaissey (Cage Match) (3/25/84) 6.) Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. Steve O & Buck Zumhofe (2/3 Falls) (4/15/84) 7.) Crusher Blackwell vs. Da Crusher (No DQ) (2/26/84) The Martel finish really didn't bug me so much since it felt like a fluke, a flash thing which Martel immediately popped up from pissed off at. He got surprised and Bock got his shoulders down for three. That said, there are a bunch of better Martel matches even on this disc. Jumbo vs Brunzell is sitting at my #39. That's the only one on here in my top 50. It also came in #6 on my Disc 3 in my first rankings though i retroactively have Martel vs Brad below it, so there are matches I liked more to come on the disc. Crusher vs Da Crusher is my working #142. The 2/3 falls match is my working #127. The cage match is my working #122. The only match I'm going to rewatch out of these is the Lawler tag. I could see that edging up, though probably not because "lawler missed a top rope legdrop and hit twenty fist drops in a row." How he sold in the bear-hug might push it up though. i need to see it again. Like I said, I thought it was the best Blackwell performance on the set but I have 5 Blackwell matches in my working top 50 and none of them are this.

Virgil was pretty good by late 92, including some of the best jobber matches of that year where he was just tossing guys around, but he really shines in 98-99 on Saturday Night.

I'm pretty sure I liked the first Martel vs Bock more than the second, but then I thought the test of strength was an epic thing and you guys couldn't get over the homoerotic camera angles. Likely one of those "watching in a group" things. Regardless, they have three great matches to come. Johnny obviously read my DVDVR post from July on Crusher vs Crusher and stole my Popeye/Bluto comment. I've been Menciaed. Part of me wants to reframe my recent friendly disagreements with Will in the context of Rush. I thought the Lawler/Mulligan tag was the best Blackwell spotlight match on the set. Johnny is easily the world's best Billy Graham in 1987/Mongo but Will/Shoe is a pretty good two man team during the Jumbo/Robinson match. I liked the Brunzell match more than you guys did, and you liked the Brunzell match a lot. I will be SHOCKED if you guys don't love the cage match even though it did nothing at all for me. It's my #122. It's all violence and next to no story, but the violence is some of the best on the set. Hey, there's a call out that is actually to me. And yeah, i hate cheating babyfaces, except for in one or two matches on the set when they're really clever about it (I think there's a Fabs vs Saito/Bock match which is great because it's really smartly done). I can't get my head into a 1984 Minneapolis Reprobate who beats his wife to appreciate Gagne on that level, I guess. It just feels like Greg Gagne overcompensating and trying to get whatever heat he can because he's fucking Greg Gagne. And I like him in parts of this set, but not in any of the BABYFACE REVENGE matches. Actually, there is one Greg Unleashed match I like a lot. I forget which one it is though. It's fairly late into the 80s. It's Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens vs. Greg Gagne & Curt Hennig (6/13/85). Surreal match.

Looks like he had 7 Superstars matches in 87 between his debut in Sept and the end of the year and another 7 between January and June of 88, with five matches on Challenge in that time period in 87 and 6 in that time period in 88. 5 on PTW in 87. 6 in 88 (with #7 being the July match from MSG where Andre beats him).

Mid-South's failure due to the oil crisis? The MEGATREND as Watts calls it. Is that face-saving myth or is it true?

I think they have a pretty strong array of faces too: Cena, ADR, Jericho, BD/Kane, Ryback, Mysterio/Cara, Sheamus, Orton, Rock. with Miz, Kofi, Santino, Clay/Tensai and whoever I'm forgetting under them.

Speaking of that, he has one of my favorite WWF squashes ever. Bam Bam Bigelow vs Terry Zeller from 5/9/93 Wrestling Challenge. It's out there on dailymotion There's a 30 second span in the match where he is the most amazing wrestler in the world, who does the most amazing things. Ultimately, though it's the sort of thing that just leads to the disappointing mantle, I suppose, since there aren't enough examples of him pulling that stuff together when it really mattered.

Michaels' best year might be 86 cept for that shitty cage match.

Thanks, you're a gem.

The only talking point I am giving you guys is for Jumbo vs Robinson and that it felt like I was watching an old bickering couple fight. No one else seemed to feel that way.

Bigelow had a good 1993. A bunch of Hart matches, some fun things against the Steiners. The Jannetty match on Raw. The Quebecers match.

You liked it because Hogan was a force of destruction and his offense looked good. That's what I got out of it, with a bit of Saito playing his role well.

Ok just did a quick count. Out of 13 people who posted Disc 2 rankings on DVDVR only Parv and Will have the Steve O tag below the Hogan vs Saito match. So again, not a fringe view and a pretty clear majority. Which isn't saying anything. It's just interesting. And very few people have it ranked FAVORABLY. It's middle of the pack on almost every disc 2 ranking so far. It's just that almost everyone ranked Hogan vs Saito unfavorably. Oh, and in case I didn't say it, it was another really fun show that I enjoyed.

Almost everyone on the DVDVR board that have posted disc 2 rankings so far have the Steve O tag ranked above Hogan vs Saito, so it's not like it's a fringe view. As for PR, if Tim Noel can make it through the AWA set, I imagine I could make it through the PR set and just send in a completely ridiculous ballot. To me, though, there's very little difference between violence for the sake of violence and crazy spots for the sake of crazy spots. That's not to say that's entirely what Bock vs Wahoo was, but it did seem to be a lot of what you guys were marking out for. And in the moment when watching that stuff, I get why someone might mark out for it too. I've been to ROH shows when I was younger where, when you see something crazy happening before your eyes, even in quick succession, it's only natural to go "Ohhhhh!" but when you go back and examine the match to see how it holds up relative to the other best matches of a promotion in a decade, well, for me, it was right around #40.

Meltzer said in his obituary bio that he shifted to the different look after the drug testing began. I'm not sure how the timing would work out though. He was already wearing the full bodysuit with the cut off arms as early as mid-90. By 92 it covered the top of his arms as well.

It'd be awesome if Johnny's dad really was Mad Dog Vachon. Johnny's impressions are going to get me fired for cracking up at work. Those fish hooks are so awesome. Best offensive move on the set, even better than the JAM SLAM. Not better than Orton's crazy reverse Calf Branding though. Will shitting on Johnny's Boston Crab story was just said. I wanted to hear stories regaled of him using the Stretch Plum to win bar fights or something. "Johnny Sorrow: Bringing more Paul Lynde to the table." during the popeye impression was what finally broke me, btw. I had these seven as 1. Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. High Flyers (11/24/83) 2. Crusher Blackwell vs. Mad Dog Vachon (Algerian Death Match) (5/22/83) 3. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Wahoo McDaniel (8/28/83) 4. Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. Dino Bravo & Steve O (8/28/83) 5. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Brad Rheingans (7/3/83) 6. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Mad Dog Vachon (11/24/83) 7. Hulk Hogan vs. Mr. Saito (8/28/83) I need to rewatch the Bravo/Steve O match, at the least. Interestingly, a ton of people have that mid disc 2 as well.