Matt D

King Tonga, Masked Superstar, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter (Cage Match) (4/21/85) is sitting at #3 for me. I have the second Rockers vs Rose/Somers cage match, which does all the things the first one did right but fixes the brutally egregious structure issues at #10 currently. Of what you've seen so far, I've got East-West vs High Flyers (Cage) as my working 50.

I get why people would like the Cage match, absolutely. It's not like the Rockers/Loverboys one from 86 which is an actively terrible match due to the creative decisions they made. This just isn't much of a match. It's a spectacle. Guys beat on each other without much rhyme or reason. Sure it's full of hate, but there just isn't direction to it. They don't use the hate and the violence to do anything interesting. To me, hate and violence are means to be used create a good match and not ends unto themselves. There is no difference to me between violence/stiffness/blood and spots/movez. They're all things to be used to tell a story. Just like selling and bumping and stooging and everything else. Just a tool. If used well, excellent. But I'm not going to rate a match highly against other great matches just because they're used at all and because they make me mark out in the moment. Obviously, other people feel differently. That's ok. It's like cotton candy with broken glass in it. I like story. It's not there. I won't fault anyone for liking the Da Crusher/Gagne cage match because it's visceral and violent. Some people dig that. It might even have been the right match for the moment. That doesn't, to me, make it better than matches that have better structures and more interesting narratives even if it was the RIGHT match for the time. I'm well past the point of worrying, Parv. Wrestling isn't objective. I value things differently than other people do and like to think I back up my opinions for the most part. I'm consistent if nothing else. I'm glad you enjoy reading the views and I hope they at least make sense and you can track them. I have two cage matches in my working top ten and they are the two that tell the best story and also two that use the cage to tell a better story with better execution than at least 140 other matches.

My rankings for these matches 1.) Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Jim Brunzell (3/15/84) 2.) Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Billy Robinson (3/11/84) 3.) Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. Blackjack Mulligan & Jerry Lawler (3/4/84) 4.) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel (12/8/83) 5.) Da Crusher & Greg Gagne vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sheik Adnan Kaissey (Cage Match) (3/25/84) 6.) Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. Steve O & Buck Zumhofe (2/3 Falls) (4/15/84) 7.) Crusher Blackwell vs. Da Crusher (No DQ) (2/26/84) The Martel finish really didn't bug me so much since it felt like a fluke, a flash thing which Martel immediately popped up from pissed off at. He got surprised and Bock got his shoulders down for three. That said, there are a bunch of better Martel matches even on this disc. Jumbo vs Brunzell is sitting at my #39. That's the only one on here in my top 50. It also came in #6 on my Disc 3 in my first rankings though i retroactively have Martel vs Brad below it, so there are matches I liked more to come on the disc. Crusher vs Da Crusher is my working #142. The 2/3 falls match is my working #127. The cage match is my working #122. The only match I'm going to rewatch out of these is the Lawler tag. I could see that edging up, though probably not because "lawler missed a top rope legdrop and hit twenty fist drops in a row." How he sold in the bear-hug might push it up though. i need to see it again. Like I said, I thought it was the best Blackwell performance on the set but I have 5 Blackwell matches in my working top 50 and none of them are this.

Virgil was pretty good by late 92, including some of the best jobber matches of that year where he was just tossing guys around, but he really shines in 98-99 on Saturday Night.

I'm pretty sure I liked the first Martel vs Bock more than the second, but then I thought the test of strength was an epic thing and you guys couldn't get over the homoerotic camera angles. Likely one of those "watching in a group" things. Regardless, they have three great matches to come. Johnny obviously read my DVDVR post from July on Crusher vs Crusher and stole my Popeye/Bluto comment. I've been Menciaed. Part of me wants to reframe my recent friendly disagreements with Will in the context of Rush. I thought the Lawler/Mulligan tag was the best Blackwell spotlight match on the set. Johnny is easily the world's best Billy Graham in 1987/Mongo but Will/Shoe is a pretty good two man team during the Jumbo/Robinson match. I liked the Brunzell match more than you guys did, and you liked the Brunzell match a lot. I will be SHOCKED if you guys don't love the cage match even though it did nothing at all for me. It's my #122. It's all violence and next to no story, but the violence is some of the best on the set. Hey, there's a call out that is actually to me. And yeah, i hate cheating babyfaces, except for in one or two matches on the set when they're really clever about it (I think there's a Fabs vs Saito/Bock match which is great because it's really smartly done). I can't get my head into a 1984 Minneapolis Reprobate who beats his wife to appreciate Gagne on that level, I guess. It just feels like Greg Gagne overcompensating and trying to get whatever heat he can because he's fucking Greg Gagne. And I like him in parts of this set, but not in any of the BABYFACE REVENGE matches. Actually, there is one Greg Unleashed match I like a lot. I forget which one it is though. It's fairly late into the 80s. It's Nick Bockwinkel & Ray Stevens vs. Greg Gagne & Curt Hennig (6/13/85). Surreal match.

Looks like he had 7 Superstars matches in 87 between his debut in Sept and the end of the year and another 7 between January and June of 88, with five matches on Challenge in that time period in 87 and 6 in that time period in 88. 5 on PTW in 87. 6 in 88 (with #7 being the July match from MSG where Andre beats him).

Mid-South's failure due to the oil crisis? The MEGATREND as Watts calls it. Is that face-saving myth or is it true?

I think they have a pretty strong array of faces too: Cena, ADR, Jericho, BD/Kane, Ryback, Mysterio/Cara, Sheamus, Orton, Rock. with Miz, Kofi, Santino, Clay/Tensai and whoever I'm forgetting under them.

Speaking of that, he has one of my favorite WWF squashes ever. Bam Bam Bigelow vs Terry Zeller from 5/9/93 Wrestling Challenge. It's out there on dailymotion There's a 30 second span in the match where he is the most amazing wrestler in the world, who does the most amazing things. Ultimately, though it's the sort of thing that just leads to the disappointing mantle, I suppose, since there aren't enough examples of him pulling that stuff together when it really mattered.

Michaels' best year might be 86 cept for that shitty cage match.

Thanks, you're a gem.

The only talking point I am giving you guys is for Jumbo vs Robinson and that it felt like I was watching an old bickering couple fight. No one else seemed to feel that way.

Bigelow had a good 1993. A bunch of Hart matches, some fun things against the Steiners. The Jannetty match on Raw. The Quebecers match.

You liked it because Hogan was a force of destruction and his offense looked good. That's what I got out of it, with a bit of Saito playing his role well.

Ok just did a quick count. Out of 13 people who posted Disc 2 rankings on DVDVR only Parv and Will have the Steve O tag below the Hogan vs Saito match. So again, not a fringe view and a pretty clear majority. Which isn't saying anything. It's just interesting. And very few people have it ranked FAVORABLY. It's middle of the pack on almost every disc 2 ranking so far. It's just that almost everyone ranked Hogan vs Saito unfavorably. Oh, and in case I didn't say it, it was another really fun show that I enjoyed.

Almost everyone on the DVDVR board that have posted disc 2 rankings so far have the Steve O tag ranked above Hogan vs Saito, so it's not like it's a fringe view. As for PR, if Tim Noel can make it through the AWA set, I imagine I could make it through the PR set and just send in a completely ridiculous ballot. To me, though, there's very little difference between violence for the sake of violence and crazy spots for the sake of crazy spots. That's not to say that's entirely what Bock vs Wahoo was, but it did seem to be a lot of what you guys were marking out for. And in the moment when watching that stuff, I get why someone might mark out for it too. I've been to ROH shows when I was younger where, when you see something crazy happening before your eyes, even in quick succession, it's only natural to go "Ohhhhh!" but when you go back and examine the match to see how it holds up relative to the other best matches of a promotion in a decade, well, for me, it was right around #40.

Meltzer said in his obituary bio that he shifted to the different look after the drug testing began. I'm not sure how the timing would work out though. He was already wearing the full bodysuit with the cut off arms as early as mid-90. By 92 it covered the top of his arms as well.

It'd be awesome if Johnny's dad really was Mad Dog Vachon. Johnny's impressions are going to get me fired for cracking up at work. Those fish hooks are so awesome. Best offensive move on the set, even better than the JAM SLAM. Not better than Orton's crazy reverse Calf Branding though. Will shitting on Johnny's Boston Crab story was just said. I wanted to hear stories regaled of him using the Stretch Plum to win bar fights or something. "Johnny Sorrow: Bringing more Paul Lynde to the table." during the popeye impression was what finally broke me, btw. I had these seven as 1. Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. High Flyers (11/24/83) 2. Crusher Blackwell vs. Mad Dog Vachon (Algerian Death Match) (5/22/83) 3. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Wahoo McDaniel (8/28/83) 4. Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera vs. Dino Bravo & Steve O (8/28/83) 5. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Brad Rheingans (7/3/83) 6. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Mad Dog Vachon (11/24/83) 7. Hulk Hogan vs. Mr. Saito (8/28/83) I need to rewatch the Bravo/Steve O match, at the least. Interestingly, a ton of people have that mid disc 2 as well.

I do have the tag match that followed at #7. First we get Johnny's Tie-Die History lesson. Then we get a lovely rendition of the song from the Muppet Movie. Oh awesome. Parv just brings up the 60s Riddler. This is where I have to bring up that Repo Man was patterned after Goshin and completely independently, Borne watched Burgess Meredith to learn how to play Doink. Unfortunately, they never teamed. I totally bought Murdoch in 91 when I was 10, btw. That was surprising to hear from Will. I LOVE the splash transition to lead to the FIP in this match. He misses it So much (even in this match) so when he hits it, it is HUGE. Brian Blair is my personal Mike Rotundo. Guy bores the hell out of me. Also, I really think Brunzell is the find of the set, even more so than Blackwell, because a lot of people didn't have an opinion one way or the other of Blackwell, but everyone discounted Brunzell.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2011/07/12/18409521.html More than you ever wanted to know about Steve O. Buck vs Regal is 147 for me. Frigging Regal. Thanks Will. I can't wait til you guys have to suffer through that. The long shine in the tag worked for me because they did it well, because the fip on Steve O was even longer, and mainly because it was on Patera and not Blackwell. I had that tag as the 8 on the disc, but that might have been a structure thing. I'll look at it again probably. I remember Saito vs Hogan being a nice novelty, really energetic and a good performance by Saito as a chickenshit, but not much of a match. I have it at the very high end of my bottom 25. I'm glad that the set up was included though. Saito's one of the real stars of the first half of the set, I think. I can't get behind asshole Hogan the asshole like you can. It was superfluous at this point. I think if some of the things he did were switched around a bit, it would have worked better. He led with the leg drop and then kept doing other things aimlessly. Let's see if you guys can convince me of the greatness of Bock vs Wahoo, because right now it's sitting at my tentative #45. I have Wahoo vs Hennig from 12/27/87 at #18, so it won't even be my #1 Wahoo match on the set. It's definitely hard to keep the Tims apart. Tim Evans. Tim Livingston. Tim Cooke. Tim Noel. But Evans is easy to remember since he's the FCW guy. "Are you in your 60s?" There are some moments in the Bock vs Wahoo match I can get absolutely get behind. The Chair shots by Bock. The sleeper counter. Bock's bumping around and general desperation. The finish. I'm fine with all the offense being chops and punches. It is absolutely spectacle. 100% It was a war. It's just not my thing. One guy beating on another in the most violent brutal way possible doesn't excite me. Bock's responses and reaction are the entirety of this match to me. And that I can get behind completely. It's enough to push it up into my top 50 and that is saying something, but it only gets so far. I'm not saying Wahoo doesn't bring something, because of course he does. It's just that what he brings isn't that interesting to me. A lot of it feels just like really gritty violence for the sake of violence. It's almost like watching a spotfest, except for instead of crazy moves (and a real master responding to them), you just get brutal stiff strikes. Glad you guys had so much fun watching it though.

Starting now. As with last time. I will liveblog this right here, since no one demanded it. I can't wait to hear Parv/Johnny Sorrow interaction. Also, I hate calling him Parv when VON KRAMER is right there. "We will help you get real perspective on Minneapolis in 1983, our british brother." "Man, that looks like where Mad Dog cooks meth." It's funny when Johnny takes over due to baby crying and phones ringer and the entire feel of the podcast shifts. It turns into a cable access show with a lot of tie-die. As far as shout outs go, that was pretty weak. And now I feel like I need to post on that Who are you? PWO note to clear out my geographic background. Though I suppose there's not much difference between Boston and New Jersey when you're languishing in Texas. Tim is a very soft-spoken gent.

I was totally ready to watch Hogan/Hansen vs Backlund/Inoki tonight. If I knew someone was going to make this note, I would have.

Grimmas takes us as far away as last week's pick as possible. Well, it's still a tag setting. Survivor Series was my favorite PPV as a kid mainly for two reasons. One is that it's like an alternate reality where moves that normally wouldn't win a match could. It's a little more exciting and even realistic because we're not longer stuck in a finisher paradigm. Suddenly a well placed kick or knee drop or flying body press can win a fall. The second reason is that you get interactions you wouldn't normally see. For instance, Warrior with the Rockers and Neidhart. Even Neidhart with the Rockers has a certain novelty that's cool. And though they were in the same faction for the better part of a year, you don't really see Haku and Arn team up like this often. 1989 WWF is not 1991-2 WCW with all the random Dangerous Alliance tags. Obviously we have Heenan replacing Tully here due to a failed drug test, one that changed wrestling. Without that, Arn and Tully would have come back into the NWA together, with a much higher salary for Arn and less friction for Flair and 1990 would have looked very different. Could you imagine face Tully vs J-Tex? I think heel Tully would have been a great foil for Lex and Sting too, but that's just speculation. What it means here is that we get Heenan directly in the match in one of his last big in ring performances (maybe the last. I'm not sure when the weasel suit matches vs Warrior hit). They get Andre out quickly, really before the match even begins. I'm not sure if he just didn't want to work or if he was that physically spent. He has a great match in December vs Demolition and the SNME match vs Warrior shortly before has him doing a lot of stuff and taking a lot of stuff, so it's not like he couldn't go in his own broken down giant way in late 89. It changes the dynamic of the match, though. Neidhart and the Rockers vs Arn and Haku is a super fast affair, at sometimes a downright sprint, with a lot of really nice looking exchanges. Exciting stuff and I'm glad I saw it. You forget how Haku could go given the gimmick he'd have a few years later. You also forget how much experience he had as a tag worker. He and Arn make a great little unit. And Warrior is great on the apron. I love him in the Bulldogs vs Demolition + Fuji match as a cheerleader on the outside and he's just as good here. There are points I think he's going to kill Michaels by pushing him off the top rope without Michaels being ready for it. I don't feel that this is true with every Survivor Series match, but this one definitely has different dynamics as guys leave the match, all the way til the end when you get stooging Arn + desperate Heenan vs the Warrior two on one. And then it ends with such a great weasel on the run performance by Heenan and a really slimy smiling bully act(?) by Warrior which the fans do eat up. It's interesting. You think that if this match had Tully and Andre in a bigger role, it'd be better, but I'm not sure it could have accomplished what it set out to do better even with two such talented wrestlers playing a bigger role.

Two hours of what Hudson thinks about Mark Henry.

Tully Blanchard vs Ultimate Warrior (Survivor Series Showdown, 1989) I was watching some things to prep for the Microscope Match of the Week this week and this was one. I don't have a ton to say about it but I will say that Tully is really masterful in all the ways he gets back on offense, if even for a few seconds. Getting his feet up, moving out of the way, getting a cheap shot in, using the distracted ref. His entire offense for the match is basically made up of what would normally be transitions and it creates an overall theme that is pretty cool. It's definitely not much of a match though.