Matt D

I've already explained why I liked Punk/Jericho. I've seen them put on shitty shitty matches and that was not one of them. That said, I was probably watching it in a vacuum. I'm really good at blocking out the crowd when watching a match these days for some reason. Crowd reaction is just about the last thing I look for since I care more about myself thant hem. I also don't have the slightest idea how the match worked as part of the show as a whole. I half watched HITC without sound, came back in during the entrances for the big tag, and left after Rocky/Cena's entrances-stare down. I DID think it worked great given the build the match had though. I think in a vacuum it's going to come off much better in a rewatch. I think it's also going to come off fine if you were to watch the build leading up to it and then watch the match. Granted, I do tend to watch most older things in context now, so I appreciate the argument. It might have been the wrong match in the wrong spot for the night, but I thought it was a really well put together and executed match in general, except for that I wish Punk specifically sold the back a little more and I didn't entirely buy the rana attempt. Am I really the only one who though the DQ stuff was both conceptually good and well executed?

I was perfectly okay with HHH/Taker right up until the moment where they started walking out and I realized that the Brock/Batista Power Warriors tandem weren't about to run out and destroy all three of them.

WCW did a year long build for Sting vs Hogan. Granted, part of that was using Sting in ways that weren't necessarily in ring, but it's doable. Hell, there was a good 5 month build for Austin vs Rock at XV. What was really telling for me was that in the initial graphics, Punk vs Jerciho wasn't involved at all. It was just HITC and Cena/Rock.

Agreed. When Jericho went into "Your father, your sister" early on, I was like "oh, no, they're ruining this match", but he really didn't do anymore of this and went straight into wrestling. Didn't feel like a self-conscious epic either, just a hard-thought title match. The lack of kicking out of finisher left and right surely helped. It fit PERFECTLY with the build, playing on Orton/Christian from last year, giving a call back to Johnny Ace/Punk feud and a look forward to what's coming, and it made total sense within the confines of the match. Jericho spent a month doing the Flair-With-Liz mind game thing on Punk just to get him off his game. Then at the last moment he gets a gift from Ace (or maybe it was their secret plan all along; who knows?). and it kept punk way off his game and helped allowed Jericho to get the first transition, at which point he decided he has a better chance of winning the match by working over Punk's back than keep trying to get the DQ. BUT in the process he absorbed a ton of damage which might have had a cumulative effect later in the match. The early match stuff was great.

The real issue with Danielson is that the act was hot and it was working and it was a shame Mania showed up when it did since it had the legs to go another few months as it was. The last thing I care about with Punk/Jericho is the crowd, given the circumstances. A hot crowd would have helped, but it was a smart, well structured, well executed match. My biggest problem with it was that Punk didn't specifically sell the back more, though he was definitely selling plenty in general. The only other thing that bugged me was Punk going for the top rope rana, which I don't remember having seen him do in years, but it's Mania so there's the "pulling out all stops" counter.

I've never really thought of it that way. But it's pretty much true, isn't it? Dusty did a lot of that stuff (AND did a lot of developmental work) but bigger.

Hunter was part of the booking team in 97. Also, just looking at OMG's WWF work is STILL enough to put him over Hunter, thank you very much. As for Jarrett, I Don't think HHH was ever as compelling a heel as Jarrett was during his first heel turn at the end of 93 in memphis. That said, it was desperately needed at that point.

there is a little twitter bird with a lucha mask.

It should have booked itself. Easiest thing in the world.

The 5/2 Ottawa Bret vs Shawn match is really good but I'm not sure how it compares to, let's say, the 4/29 Syracuse match on the Bret vs Shawn dvd

Everyone knows that Dustin made Sheamus

I think it'd only matter relative to someone else doing it better. For instance, Rock's Sharpshooter is only a problem if someone is around doing it better or if people can REMEMBER someone doing it better.. Past that, it's all in how the audience is trained and that has more to do with selling (both from opponents and announcers) not execution. Considering that Nattie does a positively brutal sharpshooter (given the flexibility of a lot of the divas), maybe it's a problem.

Now, if we were in the territory days. Is there a coherent moment where the shift happened? Piper at Wrestlemania I? Orndorff turned shortly thereafter so he didn't need to be protected as a heel.

I'd totally get into Lucha right now (I'm sure there's an internal logic that matches follow and things work or don't work relative to that), but I'm trying to learn French for work, not Spanish, so it's just L'Ange Blanc matches for me for now (not that I can find any of those).

I think the reason that Teddy vs Johnny is so over is that it's getting twice the time as anything else. Almost any mid-card match is involved somehow. Then on smackdown they even had the Bellas randomly talking about it.

On paper, it bugs me. Actually watching the matches, Rey really DOES center a lot of his offense around getting his opponent in that position. It's rarely haphazard and even when it is, Rey somehow makes it seem like it was all part of some master plan of his.

I'd have to see the match to confirm it but that was the Faces of Fear's finisher. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NDbAmJ0g5Q They do it to glacier about 1:35 in.

It bugs me that Edge/Lita and Edge/Vickie should have been Jericho/Steph

Tom's just posted some of the best stuff I've seen on this board and that's really saying a lot.

The frustrating thing is that on paper, pairing Stephanie with Jericho should have worked. They should have gotten molten heat. They almost went out of their way to make sure it didn't work.

For me, I want the match to tell a story and I want that story to make sense. Then I'd like that story to be good. After that I'd like every move to matter as part of the story. Now, again, some of that stuff completely goes against Meltzer ...doctrines?

But what if he got Dusty!

I also think, and some of you guys know this better than I do, but on some level, for Dave Good = Effective. Now whether effective means "Did it work for the crowd?" or it means "Did it work for Me (or my shareholders) at the time?" is a different question I guess.

The guy was in the corner. He didn't really have anywhere TO go. The manager fanning him with his shirt was hilarious though, subsequent dickery nonwithstanding.