Matt D
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I kind of want reluctant Show/Otunga as tag team champs.
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I just noticed it way more than usual. Maybe because I was watching more closely or something. No idea. I'm going to watch it again tomorrow which I always do with matches like this. I don't think his selling was bad, I just thought there was a lot of signature offense that involved leaping/kicking/using the knee/et after the leg work. Again it's not a match killer, but it's the reason on first watch I have it a bit lower than the top two matches from the last ppv I think part of it was self aware, though. It was a story element. In part, it's why Punk went for the leg in the first place. But more importantly, the dropping of the kneepad was a huge moment. Just like the charging knees to the ribs relatively late in the match. It was a self-aware escalation despite the risk. It was a "high risk decision." I'm not mixed up on which leg that was, am I? I wouldn't put that past myself. I'd really have to see both this and Bryan/Sheamus again. I loved them both too.
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I think the leg selling was done pretty well, myself. There were little things, like him getting up to the top too quickly and then selling AFTER the dropkick, which if we're going to compare it against top notch stuff matters, but i don't think there was a point where he forgot to sell it either before or after a move. It was always on his mind and never dropped or tossed aside. But yeah, he always remembered either before or after, never always before AND after. There's so much stuff in this match to like I'd have to rewatch it a few times.
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Fucking awesome. The ONLY naysaying I have at all, the ONLY is that we saw SO much in the way of calling spots. They were talking to each other like crazy and the camera did a terrible job of hiding it. But there was so much awesome, the figure four attempts, and then the SNAP dragon whip into it. One of my favorite things in wrestling is setting up move attempts that pay off later and there was just so much here, SO much. But it wasn't cutesy. And there was heaps of story and they sold things and everything had meaning and weight to it. God that was awesome.
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Honestly, the RF guys are sort of the best of most evils. I'd rather have a complete chronological rundown than spending two hours on three stories. It'd be one thing if we heard a bunch of stuff by most of the guys interviewed, but if you have one shot at John Nord, I know what I'd prefer. To cover as much ground as possible, even if you don't get as much detail as you'd want on anything. What bugs me more are the "key" questions, like asking everyone in the world about the Von Erichs and how fucked up they were.
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[1993-01-09-WWF-Boston, MA] Ric Flair vs Bret Hart (60-Minute Iron Man)
Matt D replied to Loss's topic in January 1993
Honest question: Is it too much to expect, in a match like this, that twenty minutes of armwork by Flair (which was great by the way. It's amazing how entertaining he can make working a hold; that might be the very best thing he does) should mean something to the rest of the match? -
I really do love the York Foundation.
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I'm always glad for people to reevaluate Demolition. http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/index.p...p;hl=demolition or http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/demolitionproject.htm respectively. And remember, the key is structure: when they gave, when they didn't give, how hot tags never came easy, and how yes, they generally break the wwf heel-in-peril dynamic.
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1990 is not a great year for them, in ring, unfortunately, mainly due to a dearth of matches on tape and the addition of Adams. There's a really solid Colossal Connection match but it's right around Christmas 89, not into 90. I find Summerslam 90 way overrated, but part of that is because it's a Harts match, not a Demolition match (no Eadie). The 88 Summerslam match is a much more interesting hybrid of the two teams' styles. There just isn't a ton of good footage in 90. Like I said, all of those Hart matches just didn't happen on MSG cards. In January/Feb when they were feuding with Andre/Haku, they weren't on the MSG shows. In March, there's a pretty lackluster Orient Express match as the OX had just debuted and were a little too protected for it to work right. The Smash/Crush Rockers match is okay but it's a pale shadow of the 88 match. The best of the bunch MSG wise is the 6 Man with LOD + Warrior which is at least a novelty. There's really next to nothing in 90 relative to the 3 years beforehand. Smash/Crush is HUGELY different than Ax/Smash. Eadie brought the structure. Crush had presence and a couple of big power moves that SOME people probably think Demolition was lacking, but they lose so much without Eadie. Also, i didn't like EITHER the LOD or Demolition as a kid, but later on I watched a bunch of Demos matches and they played to a lot of of what I liked at that point. I even wrote about it.
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They were wrestling the Harts to Double DQs on House Shows as early as April 21 (With Mania happening 20 days earlier), though they also wrestled the Bolsheviks on the Superstars that aired that day and were total, over faces. Unless there's a fancam out there, we don't have any of those Pre-Summerslam matches. On SNME that aired 4/28, the Harts challenged them and they interfered in the Harts vs Rockers match, which was the beginning of it, though they were still quite over as faces on the 5/19 Superstars, including a fairly sympathetic promo about the Harts. Graham has first appearance of "BA" on house shows on June 1, so that must be when Ax's health scare happened, abouts. On TV Crush debuted on the 6/23 Superstars. Still kids in the crowd waving Demolition figures. Super quick squash. But this put a spin on things immediately. On the 7/7 superstars, Vince went out of his way to show that the fans were giving Demos a thumbs down and he portrayed them as unfair and running scared. Their promo on the Harts was completely heelish. On the 7/14 Superstars, on the Brother Love Show, Demolition jumps the Harts 3 on 2 and that's the clincher.
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Is it true that Solie had a hissy fit over Poffo being in?
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It was a big joke on Dusty but he was also a drawing heel in a big program.
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Dream Machine is what you're looking for.
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It was originally sort of parody in ECW though. He was there with Lou E Dangerously as the New Dangerous Alliance. It was more tongue in cheek than the New Fabulous Ones which were meant to be a draw. Granted, he might have been using the gimmick before that, I don't know. Also, I was watching the youtube Memphis Rockers stuff and how did no one ever tell me the Nasty Boys started off with facepaint. In the pantheon of Hawk and Animal take offs, they are less the Road Warrior and more The Warriors.
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The thing with CW was that it was self aware. It knew what it was doing. It wasn't like everyone using the facepaint after the road warriors. It was a wink wink thing. and yeah, he was still pretty good as late as 2009. Corporal Kirchner is someone who I see as more along the lines of what this note would be about.
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60% of the time all Raw has going for it is that it's live.
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There are a few Bret/Perfect vs Luger/Razor matches in 93, but none of the former.
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[1992-11-23-WWF-Primetime Wrestling] Interview: Ric Flair & Razor Ramon
Matt D replied to Loss's topic in November 1992
They FINALLY put him in the suit. Part of that was the whole "Live from Charlotte's TV studio." thing they had going with PTW at that time. But he got to keep wearing the suit for the rest of his run at least. His event center promos for Bret shortly thereafter had him in it. -
Not necessarily GOOD per se but.. The Fancam of Warrior vs Flair is hilarious just because when Warrior is doing all the foot stomping and rope shaking as part of his final comeback, he sells the leg Flair had been working on ONCE, for just a second, and it's the most disjointed thing. Then Flair keeps trying to give it a little kick as Warrior stomps around in a big circle and he keeps missing it as Warrior warriors away. He eats the clotheslines big time though.
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I actually don't love stiffness in my matches. All things equal I'd probably prefer less snugness than more. It's supposed to be fake. Everything is just a symbol. In 2012 I cringe when they're really laying it in. I guess I just don't have the stomach anymore or something. I'll take coherence over believably any day.
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I love how pissed off the Steiners seem after Liger makes the hot tag after they killed him dead for 6 minutes. I love how they don't really try to pin Liger for most of that time either, not til Scott hits the charging behind German. Then when he locks on the full nelson, you're sort of... "Aw, c'mon. Don't, Scotty." Then after the hot tag, they just swarmed Sasaki. I have a big problem with Liger just shaking off the beating though. At first it seems like he's not going to but the next second he's jumping off the top rope and running around. Really fun finish though.
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Beverly Brothers vs Disasters at Summerslam 92 is slept upon as it's a pretty smart match, and both Earthquake vs Dibiase and Jannetty vs Skinner are good relatively short matches from PTW in November. I think Undertaker vs Haku from Japan (SWS I think) is a fun novelty too. I think of the pre-survivor series TV Bret Title defenses (Berzerker, Shango, Kamala, Virgil), the only one really worth watching is Kamala. There are better Bret vs Nord matches, but it's a rare 1992 Kamala match where they don't portray him as a moron. The Michaels IC title defense vs Virgil is more fun since Heenan is inexplicably rooting for Virgil until he catches himself. There's a fun Bossman vs Michaels match from right around this point but it's a bit anti-climactic.
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Neither here nor there, but if you want to look at one taping which was sort of a change of an era, this is a pretty good one. Bret wins the Title, yes, but on top of that, on the Superstars taped here you get: Jannetty's return, First Bam Bam vignette The Headshrinkers first Superstars match. Doink's Debut Damien Demento's Debut. and Yokozuna's debut. For one taping, there's a lot of stuff going on there.
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I thought he wasn't known to be leaving until just before Mania?
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SOMEWHERE we had a conversation about the WWF champion wrestling on TV and when it changed. I forget where (heck, it might have even been on DVDVR) but it was absolutely when Bret won the title as a way of stressing he was a fighting champion and giving him legitimacy. Within the first month or so after they announced it, on free TV he beat Berzerker and Kamala (Prime Time), Virgil (Superstars), and Papa Shango (SNME, via the Sharpshooter which really killed off Shango in a lot of ways). They went out of their way to mention how much of a fighting champion he was and even to show footage of the defenses in a package.