Marti Funk and Japanese booking

[kjh]

I grasp the concept of Rikio-Tanahashi at the Dome... I think we all do: give two of the younger stars a spotlight on the big card. It's not terribly different from what New Japan did with Chono-Mutoh on the 1/93 Dome show. Tenryu-Choshu was the big match. It's a bit tough because Chono is running around with the NWA Title while Muta is running around with the IWGP, and those two old farts are bogarting the main event on the Dome show. So Choshu put them together in a unificaiton match. In this case, Rikio-Tanahashi is beneath Kobashi-Sasaki and Misawa-Kawada. I'm willing to cop that this was an error, and probably Rikio-Akiyama would have been a better match. Slight worry that Akiyama was in the main the prior Dome show losing a title match to Kobashi, so it's a bit of wash-rinse-repeat. But probably a better match up.

I was at the show and it was a pretty big error, given how badly the match bombed. Just an embarrassing dearth of heat, after two very well received lesser title matches. Some fans were even treating the match as an unofficial intermission. It didn't help that they choked on the big stage, having a forgettable match with Tanahashi botching a couple of topes and injuring himself in the process.

[jdw]

I think if they knew they were going to have Rikio be the one to end Kobashi's reign (which at some point they did), then they needed at the same time to be building up the person who was going to face him at the Dome. If it wasn't going to be Misawa, which I would agree it shouldn't have been, then the other member of the Top 3 of the promotion was Jun given Taue just wasn't consistently pushed up at the level of Misawa / Kobashi / Jun.

 

Can you work a storyline off it? Certainly. But at the same time they're getting Rikio ready for winning the title, they get Jun ready so he's hot heading into the Dome challenge.

 

Could the allegedly great Jun get an accceptable Dome main event out of Rikio? Could it have been positioned as the main relative to Misawa-Kawada and Kobashi-Sasaki?

 

If you can't get Rikio and an acceptable opponent ready for the Dome, and can't position it in such away that it's part of a triple main event, than they should have put Kobashi dropping the title off until the show after the Dome so someone isn't in such a bad spot.

 

I'd agree with the notion that there was a mistep in that.

 

On the other hand, could Rikio ever have gotten over as the ace? Did he have it in him?

 

John

[jdw]

I do agree that Misawa/NOAH repeatedly tried to get the next generation over. But the steady decline of the product from 2004 on, even granted that Kobashi went out, was stark despite having almost entirely the same wrestlers. In an environment where the booking became increasingly lazy/unfocused, the wrestling headed in the same direction. The hardcore fans that supported the company from the beginning largely gave up, and I really believe it's because they weren't getting the show quality they were used to. I could go through Budokan-by-Budokan with where I think they could have improved main events, but much more important would be re-doing whole tours and giving direction. There was very little sense of rivalries and continuity. I couldn't put a % on it because it's impossible to measure how important booking is.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

 

I think part of the problem is that it's a bit different from our attempts back in the 90s to book an All Japan that was as lazy and unfocused as you're pointing out NOAH was.

 

All Japan had a base of Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Taue and Jun. Some useful gaijin. Some "available talent" out there that could compliment the top, and lots that could compliment the middle.

 

NOAH had past it Misawa, past it Taue, past it Kobashi (when he was available), "prime" Jun who never reached the level of his old All Japan mates... and a batch of younger heavies who were ace-challenged. There's been available talent out there, but for the most part it's all from the prior generations (Sasaki, Tenryu, Takayama, Kawada) that only further points out that the younger heavies are all that.

 

I agree that you could rebook things to make for a Better Product. But a batch of Better Next Aces? That's the tough thing that faced All Japan / New Japan / NOAH when looking for the successors to the Four Corners and Three Musketeers.

 

John

[kjh]

If you can't get Rikio and an acceptable opponent ready for the Dome, and can't position it in such away that it's part of a triple main event, than they should have put Kobashi dropping the title off until the show after the Dome so someone isn't in such a bad spot.

 

I'd agree with the notion that there was a mistep in that.

I think you're right on this. Rikio's title run was inevitably going to be overshadowed by Kawada and Sasaki's debut with the promotion, along with Tenryu still having some juice left too. I guess Misawa felt that those stars being around would allow time for Rikio to grow into the role of "ace", but it backfired. Really Kobashi vs. Sasaki for the GHC title should have headlined the Dome, as even without the belt it was still a much more heated match than the actual main event of Misawa vs. Kawada, who couldn't quite follow them despite trying really hard.

 

I also agree that Rikio was a long shot to get over as their new ace, but I think he'd have a better shot if they did a better job of building to his title run. Delaying the title switch for six months and building to that moment would have really helped him.

[Ditch]

Late '90s All Japan was not the best-booked of companies but it wasn't nearly at the lows of late '00s NOAH. And heck, late '90s All Japan did do some damage in terms of somewhat bumbling the transition of Akiyama from Misawa's #2 to viable headliner, and he could have been bigger at the start of NOAH, as opposed to still being in the "future superstar" mode.

 

With the declining popularity of wrestling, less wrestling on TV, and fewer Japanese babies, a talent decrease was inevitable. That's why extra-tight, extra-focused booking was needed more than ever. The lack of it in NJ and NOAH did irreparable harm, furthering the downward spiral.

 

Damn but I get depressed writing about it.

*dives into the Lynch catalog for comfort*

[Loss]

This seems like a good place to ask this question:

 

What was the reason Kobashi was less relevant in 1996? He was still around and had some great matches, but really, Akiyama seemed to be in his normal spot.

[Ditch]

I'm guessing Baba was trying to figure out how to book Kobashi as his own man. That didn't happen until fall when he started teaming full-time with Patriot, which later led to him forming Global Energy Team (Kobashi/Ace/Patriot/other gaijin). In a sense the Triple Crown win was a shortcut to finding something to do with him.

 

http://www.purolove.com/noah/kobashi/kobashi96.php

The August/September tour was the transition point.

 

My favorite thing about GET was the 5/24/97 6-man that never aired where Patriot pinned Misawa. That has to be the lowest-ranked dude to beat Misawa in the last 20 years of his career.

[jdw]

Late '90s All Japan was not the best-booked of companies but it wasn't nearly at the lows of late '00s NOAH. And heck, late '90s All Japan did do some damage in terms of somewhat bumbling the transition of Akiyama from Misawa's #2 to viable headliner, and he could have been bigger at the start of NOAH, as opposed to still being in the "future superstar" mode.

Probably most of the second half of the decade was poorly booked by All Japan. I suspect if we look back at what "worked", most of it was obvious stuff or continuation of what they started earlier in the decade.

 

If you wanted me to pinpoint a specific place where the decline in booking started, I'd go with the decision to move Omori over to teaming with Hansen in 1994, then transitioning him over to teaming with Akiyama to hold the All Asia tag title.

 

Not saying that they missed the next Misawa. But he was a pretty obvious choice for specific role in which he was already over with the fans in Feb 1994.

 

There were a lot of smaller things like that which laid the foundation for bigger things later in the decade.

 

John

[tomk]

I have no idea why the “booking” for Rikioh’s title reign is being blamed for it’s problems.

 

I mean I rarely see people blaming the “booking for the build” to Sting v Hogan as deserving the blame for it’s failure. The blame there is normally firmly laid at the feet of Hogan and Patrick.

 

Rikio was built up toward his GHC title challenge opposite Kobashi as a big bomb throwing ex-sumo. And while it seemed pretty telegraphed that he was going to win that match, it also was pretty telegraphed that his first challenge was going to be the other heavy handed NOAH bomb thrower Saito.

 

I’ve been following Saito since the NJ v karate army days and not sure what is meant by “

who was far from a proven commodity as a singles wrestler.

“. Not proven as a guy who can deliver a big singles match? Or not proven as a draw? Either way it was pretty clear during the build to Rikio v Kobashi that Saito was the natural next challenger.

 

“

Rikio’s title reign had two more forgettable defenses before finally coming to an end at the hands of Taue…Rikio needed some help from NOAH’s bookers to make it work. He didn’t get it.”

Ignoring who Rikio’s next two challengers were makes it easier to say that he wasn’t helped by NOAH’s bookers. His next challenger was Tanahashi on a show that I think was main evented by Misawa v Kawada ( I could be wrong here, from memory the main was Kawada v Misawa with Misawa winning, but am too lazy to confirm). This is Rikio beating an outsider. Beating the guy who was at that point positioned as the future of New Japan. Future of NOAH putting away the future of New Japan. Yes, Tanahashi sucks something awful. And this wasn’t a good match. I wish it had been Rikio v Shibata or Rikio v Nakamura. But neither Shibata or Nakamura were positioned as future NJ ace in 05 (fuck Shibata was gone at this point). The third title defense was Rikio beating Misawa (who had just came off the win against long time rival Kawada).

 

 

 

Rikio’s title defenses were the heavy handed monster v heavy handed monster, future ace of NOAH v future ace of NJ, and v long time ace who had just come off of win against long time rival.

 

 

 

I think instead of blaming the booking, the guy who should eat the majority of the blame is Kobashi.

 

In the nineties the criticism of Kobashi was that he was a guy who couldn’t work as “THE MAN”, always worked as crying underdog and couldn’t work from above. Sometime in the early 2000’s Kobashi learned how to work like “THE MAN”. My guess is that he got a hold of a bunch of Flair tapes and realized that the formula for working as THE MAN (on top) is to work like a Flair opponent (make your opponent work like Flair from the bottom). Which meant that he made all of his opponents essentially work like Flair (work over Kobashi’s knee-put Kobashi in figure four only for Kobashi to reverse it, take an apron bump, chop Kobashi in the corner only to have Kobashi no sell the chops and then beat Flair like challenger with chops, etc, etc).

It’s a formula that works, gets the crowd to pop, etc. And it’s an excellent formula to work against Ogawa (who essentially is a scummy cheat to win heel who likes to work the leg anyway), Akiyama, ( a guy who does lots of heel stalling shtick), Honda (guy whith good grounding leg work who also has big time underdog v MAN charisma) or Sano( another guy who does really great leg work).

 

But like any formula there are holes in it. It is a formula that turns opponents into interchangeable guys. The Takayama v Kobashi GHC title match felt like a big deal simply because Takayama worked the arm (everyone else is so interchangeable that the slightest deviation from the formula is memorable and feels like a big deal). The whole build to Sano v Kobashi was built around Sano as a deadly striker. So while Sano is a guy who does really good mat work, the match completely ignored the match build/booking.

 

Rikio was built up toward his GHC title as a heavyhanded bomb throwing ex-sumo. Instead of working to Rikio’s strengths, Kobashi plugged Rikio into the Kobashi by numbers formula. And while I have enjoyed some Rikio v Sano interaction over the years, Rikio is not a guy who is particularly interesting working the mat or working a leg. It’s not what he does, not what makes him special/unique. Rikio came into match booked as a monster and instead was the last guy who you should have working a match as nise Flair. At end of match instead of coming off like something special. Rikio came off like just another interchangeable Kobashi opponent, just the one who happened to pull off a win. I don't want to call it sand bagging, as it may not have been deliberate.

 

The reports of the crowd post match were of disappointment, not the HOLY SHIT WHAT THE FUCK heel heat of the Ogawa win, but as though it were a slip on banana peel finish. Crowd turned on Rikio long before the Saito title defense. No matter how sensible the booking, Rikio wasn’t able to recover. But the blame lies at the feet of Kobashi not the booking.

[jdw]

This seems like a good place to ask this question:

 

What was the reason Kobashi was less relevant in 1996? He was still around and had some great matches, but really, Akiyama seemed to be in his normal spot.

What David said.

 

Kobashi was ready to move away from Misawa: 10/95 TC challenge (his third overall and first against Misawa) along with winning the third straight Tag League. Nothing more to do there, and the need to freshen things up a bit. Very clear that Akiyama was being pushed up into the partner role.

 

Their problem is that they didn't have bodies around to form a group for Kobashi. Pretty much a mess of several years in the making, tying into my comments about Omori above. If Omori had been Kawada & Taue's #3 for several years (rather than just two series in 1994) similar to Jun being the #3 to Misawa & Kobashi, they could have made an easy transition:

 

Misawa & Kobashi & Jun + Kawada & Taue & Omori

 

to

 

Kawada & Taue + Misawa & Jun + Kobashi & Omori

 

But they wasted developing Omori, and worse stuck him with Jun rather than being Jun's rival (and having several years of Kobashi beating him up before joining hands with him).

 

It's a big reason why the transition in 1996 looks so awkward relative to the transition in 1993 of Kawada over to Taue, and Jun over to Misawa & Kobashi's side.

 

Kobashi was something of a man with out a group, still with Misawa but pushed aside for another partner. The plan had been Patriot, but my recollection is that he got a little banged up and then let them know he was heading to the WWF, which is why Ace moved over.

 

Among the dumbest moves in the later part of the decade was moving Jun *laterally* over to team with Kobashi. It's not just failing to allow Jun to lead his own team, but it was putting Jun with Kenta who was always going to be doing the Kenta Show in tags. Oddly it seemed that Jun was perfectly happy with that, and his growth hit the wall to a degree. I do wonder if that stretch was the first sign that Jun didn't have it in him to be an ace, or if simply teaming with Kobashi put his mind in the "I'm never going to be better than this guy, so what's the point" mode.

 

Yeah... those were trainwreck times for All Japan. Wanted to put my fist through the tv all the time. So much wasted.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Another problem in early 2000's NOAH that was going to bite them in the ass was the main proteges for the 3 of the Four Corners (because Taue was on his own pretty much) were Jr's who weren't going to grow into natural heavyweights.

 

Misawa = Marufuji

Kobashi = KENTA

Akiyama = Kanemaru

 

The two biggest prospects they had was Morishima & Rikio so of course they put them together as a team who while a dominant team as Wild II they didn't get the rub as being a protege of the top guys like those guys did themselves in the late 80's - early 90's. They got the message about the middle of the decade by putting Rikio with Akiyama but the business was starting to decline anyway. Shiozaki & Sugiura then grew up to be heavies after the decline started and they weren't dynamic enough to propel business so it was hard for them.

 

Misawa dying plus the fact that wrestlling as a whole went down popularity wise has been hard to overcome.

[jdw]

His next challenger was Tanahashi on a show that I think was main evented by Misawa v Kawada ( I could be wrong here, from memory the main was Kawada v Misawa with Misawa winning, but am too lazy to confirm).

Misawa-Kawada and Kobashi-Sasaki. Fans seemed to take Kobashi-Sasaki as more of the main event, but those would be the two mains.

 

 

This is Rikio beating an outsider. Beating the guy who was at that point positioned as the future of New Japan. Future of NOAH putting away the future of New Japan. Yes, Tanahashi sucks something awful. And this wasn’t a good match. I wish it had been Rikio v Shibata or Rikio v Nakamura. But neither Shibata or Nakamura were positioned as future NJ ace in 05 (fuck Shibata was gone at this point).

Nakamura seemed more to have been positioned as the future ace: he had the IWGP already at that point, he seemed to be the more pushed of the two in their tag team, he never was put into a U-30 title match where he'd have to lose to Tanahashi... except the time when Tanahashi dropped the belt to Nakamura. Nakamura had been consistently in the IWGP Title picture since winning the belt, including just coming off the 60:00 draw with Kojima. Tanahashi had just one IWGP challenge by that point.

 

I think the reason it was Tanahashi is because they didn't want to sacrifice Nakamura to Rikio.

 

 

The third title defense was Rikio beating Misawa (who had just came off the win against long time rival Kawada).

Yeah, we hit that.

 

 

I think instead of blaming the booking, the guy who should eat the majority of the blame is Kobashi.

Interesting concept.

 

I tend to think that Kobashi, much like Flair, worked his matches without great thought. It was done in a fashion that "worked for Kobashi", popped the crowds, and he'd been allowed to get away with doing whatever he wanted all the way back to All Japan.

 

I think we all knew Kobashi had the tools to work like The Man, in his own way, once he started acting like it. He already was doing the dominating spots against Taue and Kawada even when they were higher on the All Japan pecking order: winning the chop spots in the corner were already there, at times annoyingly. We tended to point to the crying stuff as it was the most obvious way to get across:

 

He's the freaking Triple Crown Champ but he's still working like an underdog. Fucking grow up.

 

I suspect we could go back and pin point him shedding some of that in 1999-2000. Perhaps that was the positive of the Kobashi-Jun team: it forced Kobashi to wake up to the fact the he wasn't the underdog anymore and high up on the pecking order. He certainly had it by the time NOAH opened as he moved from TC Champ to NOAH Ace right off the bat before going on the DL.

 

I'm not sure how much blame we can put on how Kobashi worked the match.

 

An example would be the 6/92 and 2/93 Kawada-Hansen matches. When people think of those matches, do they think of them as "That was a fucking War!" or as "Damn... Stan really dominated that more than you'd think". In watching them again, Stan kind of dominated them more than I remembered. Kawada got his licks in, but there was a lot of Stan Match in there.

 

At the time, it didn't really matter. Kawada stayed strong (and arguably got over more) by beingin them, and getting his licks in. And then going out and having other great matches.

 

Is there anything Rikio or NOAH could have done to get him over as the Ace?

 

Even if he squashes Kobashi (which never would happen), would he have been able to sustain it?

 

You talk about heavyhanded bomb throwing monster. Would that really have been sustainable for a NOAH Ace, whose fans grew up on Misawa and Kobashi over the past decade and a half?

 

John

[Ditch]

I mean I rarely see people blaming the “booking for the build” to Sting v Hogan as deserving the blame for it’s failure. The blame there is normally firmly laid at the feet of Hogan and Patrick.

I have no idea where this is coming from. The Hogan/Sting build, while not flawless, is generally considered good booking and a financial success. I've yet to see anyone defend how Rikio's reign started.

it also was pretty telegraphed that his first challenge was going to be the other heavy handed NOAH bomb thrower Saito

I can't recall this offhand. Was he shown watching the match from the arena floor or something? Because he'd done absolutely nothing of note between his October title shot against Kobashi and the announcement of him as Rikio's challenger. Saito had no momentum whatsoever and was just six months removed from a mid-sized-venue title shot; putting him against Rikio screamed "we're giving Rikio an easy title defense and can't think of anyone good so we're putting in someone random". It's not like Saito is a big name or a draw, or known as a reliable tear-down-the-house singles wrestler, so it was completely unappealing. Saito and Rikio were darn good tag wrestlers, which is not the same as singles. The match ended up the biggest title match bomb since the Ogawa reign, and even there Ogawa's matches weren't considered disappointing in the context of being Ogawa matches. It was a huge blow to Rikio's confidence and the fans' confidence in him.

 

Offhand, I'd say the following people on the March card would have been better: Akiyama, Tenryu, Morishima, Ohtani, Honda. Granted there's the political aspect of Tenryu or Ohtani, so let's remove them. Morishima would have been credible and interesting as a challenger for obvious reasons. Akiyama was further removed from a title loss than Saito. Honda was even further removed than that, and his previous title shot was a huge success. Honda would be quite a bit below the others I mentioned but you'd still have the 'going for revenge for his partner' storyline. Naturally one would change the booking to give Morishima or Honda momentum... but heck why didn't they do ANYTHING for Saito to make it seem less random? Anyway, enough about that one.

 

This is Rikio beating an outsider. Beating the guy who was at that point positioned as the future of New Japan. Future of NOAH putting away the future of New Japan. Yes, Tanahashi sucks something awful. And this wasn’t a good match. I wish it had been Rikio v Shibata or Rikio v Nakamura. But neither Shibata or Nakamura were positioned as future NJ ace in 05

Whoa, hold up. Nakamura wasn't positioned as future ace in '05? Because he was the overwhelming favorite going into the G-1 a month later, to the extent that fans at Sumo Hall on the final night were throwing negative vibes at him because they thought he was going to be forced down their throats. Tanahashi also got some of the same vibes. Granted, Tanahashi was going to be an IWGP champion in the future, that sort of thing, but I don't think he was clearly ahead of Nakamura at that point. Plus, Nakamura was a former IWGP champ and had multiple Tokyo Dome main events under his belt. That would have been a MUCH more interesting challenger. Nobody gave Tanahashi a chance against Rikio and it meant the match had no buzz going in. Nakamura would have been better, and if not him then Nagata.

 

Rikio vs Misawa was the best possible matchup, I have no bones about that one.

 

Ultimately I don't think Rikio had it in him to be anything close to Misawa or Kobashi as champion. But getting him off on such bad footing soured much of the fanbase on him, and it hurt his heat going forward. He's had two title shots since dropping the belt, instead of one or two more and maybe a reign. If he hadn't been damaged goods, maybe they wouldn't have felt the need to have Misawa keep the belt so long. Or maybe Rikio's eventual heel turn would have been meaningful instead of desperate.

 

So much of this reminds me of discussions of Tenzan mid-decade. No, he was never going to be Chono. But everyone KNEW that, which made it indefensible (IMO) to pull crap like having him job to Nakamura in December '03, or have him look awful in an awkward non-title 3-way on 1/4/05. When the company needed Tenzan to draw in '05, the fans weren't there for either Tenzan or New Japan. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered had the booking been better; maybe he would have flopped regardless. But someone with his limitations simply can't afford to also have to deal with sandbags in the form of how he's booked.

 

edit: As for the Kobashi thing, no way, the title match (especially the second half) was fine and had good heat. I'd prefer it if Kobashi was pinned one or two moves before he was, but that's not the sort of thing casual fans worry about. Rikio won convincingly and credibly, and that's what Kobashi was called on to do. If anything I think Kobashi laid out the match such that Rikio was in the Kobashi role, which is appropriate. The match could have been better but it wasn't bad. Rikio vs Saito *was* bad.

[kjh]

Maybe, as we're doing WCW comparisons, the Kobashi vs. Rikio title switch was more like the Flair vs. Garvin title switch than the Hogan vs. Sting title switch?

[Ditch]

Not really, to the extent that Rikio was expected to win coming in, whereas Garvin was a low-tier challenger that only won for the sake of convenience.

 

edit: If anything, Misawa vs Akiyama 7/27/01 would be the comparison. A match that wasn't bad but wasn't as good as it could/should have been. Done with to take an experienced wrestler to the next level, and not really accomplishing it. But, I don't think in either case the title reigns were doomed by the title win.

[kjh]

Was the average Japanese fan really expecting Rikio to win? Anyway, my comparison was more that they were happy to cheer Rikio on as a challenger and bought him in that role, but they weren't ready to accept him as champion.

[Ditch]

You know she picked a fight with Dan Severn. I always thought it was an angle for the magazines but it was real. I could not even get Severn to talk about it it bothered him so much.

Howard Brody says it was an elaborate work in his book, and he hates her so I don't see why he would lie about it. But why would Dan keep kayfabe about it long afterwards... hmm.

 

Just spoke with Brody. He says Severn is just kayfabing it still, in part because the work was so effective that mos everyone there bought it. Reading the book, the scenario is such that the odds of it being a shoot are pretty low, and plus why would Brody *de-sensationalize* something for a book (ie. turning a shoot to a work). The goal was a Severn vs Dory match in Japan, but they couldn't sell the match to anyone to make it worthwhile.

[MikeCampbell]

Was the average Japanese fan really expecting Rikio to win?

Obviously nobody here, except OJ could really answer that, but I would think so. Kobashi was two years into the reign at that point. I'm recalling the 9/10/04 title defense where the Budokan fans seemed to be dying for Taue to pull off the win. Plus, Rikio had a decent little push leading to the title match. He'd pinned Kobashi in a tag tournament final in November, and teamed with Misawa to beat the outsider team of Tenryu and Koshinaka in January, scoring the pin over Koshinaka.

[tomk]

Another problem in early 2000's NOAH that was going to bite them in the ass was the main proteges for the 3 of the Four Corners (because Taue was on his own pretty much) were Jr's who weren't going to grow into natural heavyweights.

 

Misawa = Marufuji

Kobashi = KENTA

Akiyama = Kanemaru

 

The two biggest prospects they had was Morishima & Rikio so of course they put them together as a team who while a dominant team as Wild II they didn't get the rub as being a protege of the top guys like those guys did themselves in the late 80's - early 90's. They got the message about the middle of the decade by putting Rikio with Akiyama but the business was starting to decline anyway.

Before they did the Rikio/Akiyama team they did do the Rikio/Marafuji one. I wrote a bunch of stuff at the time about while I hated the Rikioh/Marafuji team (because well Marafuji stinks and dragged down the matches), the booking was a neat one in that in effect you took Misawa’s former protégé and by pairing him with Rikioh it elevated Rikioh to role of heavyweight mentor (Slaughter to Terry Daniels). I wish Misawa had done more paired up Ogawa before moving on to Suzuki. I think moving more or less straight to Suzuki exposed the mechanics of “I’m working with juniors until they’re elevated to point where I can team them with heavys.”. Still it was a pairing that for a match quality I didn’t like, while from a booking standpoint was an effective move to elevate Rikio.

[tomk]

 

 

This is Rikio beating an outsider. Beating the guy who was at that point positioned as the future of New Japan. Future of NOAH putting away the future of New Japan. Yes, Tanahashi sucks something awful. And this wasn’t a good match. I wish it had been Rikio v Shibata or Rikio v Nakamura. But neither Shibata or Nakamura were positioned as future NJ ace in 05 (fuck Shibata was gone at this point).

Nakamura seemed more to have been positioned as the future ace: he had the IWGP already at that point, he seemed to be the more pushed of the two in their tag team, he never was put into a U-30 title match where he'd have to lose to Tanahashi... except the time when Tanahashi dropped the belt to Nakamura. Nakamura had been consistently in the IWGP Title picture since winning the belt, including just coming off the 60:00 draw with Kojima. Tanahashi had just one IWGP challenge by that point.

 

I think the reason it was Tanahashi is because they didn't want to sacrifice Nakamura to Rikio.

 

 

I will admit that I did not follow New Japan this decade in any serious way. Followed tourneys here and there , but didn’t follow the booking. Plus it was always unclear what was the wants of the US based New Japan fans (who wanted Tanahashi to be future ace) vs what was the wants of the actual New Japan fans (where Nakamura was booked stronger). So all I really know is that your future top guys were Shibata, Nakamura, and Tanahashi and that Shibata was gone.

 

Also worth pointing out that Tanahashi was the guy who teamed with Nagata beat the Double Takeshi’s.

 

Even if not future ace, he was future ace rival and revenge from an earlier loss.

 

Interesting concept.

 

I tend to think that Kobashi, much like Flair, worked his matches without great thought. It was done in a fashion that "worked for Kobashi", popped the crowds, and he'd been allowed to get away with doing whatever he wanted all the way back to All Japan.

This is why I wanted to be very clear that I was not accusing him of sandbagging. I’m not suggesting that Kobashi is HBK or HHH, insecure guy who deliberately tries to expose opponent. None of that is being suggested.

 

An example would be the 6/92 and 2/93 Kawada-Hansen matches. When people think of those matches, do they think of them as "That was a fucking War!" or as "Damn... Stan really dominated that more than you'd think". In watching them again, Stan kind of dominated them more than I remembered. Kawada got his licks in, but there was a lot of Stan Match in there.

I’m not saying that either. I have seen plenty of matches where one guy takes 90% and makes his opponent come out strong. That’s not what is being said here. And this wasn’t a match where Kobashi took 90%. I’m saying structure of match didn’t play to Rikioh’s strengths. The long Rikio control leg work section is something that Rikio doesn’t normally do or do well. Kobashi can have strong matches with heavyhanded bomb guys. Has had good matches with Vader, a good match with Takayama, the crowd popped big for his match with Sasaki, and Rikio had an earlier title challenge with Kobashi where Rikio left the match looking stronger. Kobashi instead plugged Rikio into his “epic match with lower ranked guy” formula, and Rikio came out looking like a lower ranked guy.

 

You talk about heavyhanded bomb throwing monster. Would that really have been sustainable for a NOAH Ace, whose fans grew up on Misawa and Kobashi over the past decade and a half?

This is an interesting question. And the only answer I have is “fuck if I know”

But if you took a time machine and visited me in 99 and told me that Misawa was going to take the majority of the AJPW roster and form his own fed:

I would have said yeah “I can see that happening”.

 

If you then told me that in big title matches in this new fed they’ll do big spots on the ring ramp and from ramp to the floor, and that in 2009 Misawa will die in ring on a back drop as a result of accumulated damage to his spine:

 

I would have said “yeah that all makes sense”.

 

If you then told me “Ok in this new post AJPW fed they are going to really push their junior title and juniors wrestlers. And you know how juniors wrestling never gets any heat in the dome, this post AJPW fed will book their juniors so well that they will actually get loud crowd heat on a dome show”.

Or if you told me “ So this fed that Misawa starts out of AJPW will put their title on a skinny guy working chickenshit heel who will hold the belt for almost half a year, he won’t have a lot of title defenses but he will wrestler lots of tags and sixmans getting heel heat for wearing trunks that say “I am cthe Champ” on them and win his matches with an inside cradle. And the audience who has been raised on Four Pillars will for the rest of the decade will pop for an inside cradle as a near fall and potential legit finish”.

Or if you showed me Kobashi v Sasaki and told me that the “fans who grew up on AJPW responded to this poor man’s War heavyweight match as though it were MOTY and it is remembered as one of the best matches in the fed first decade”

 

I might think you were pulling my leg. “Sure, sure and tell me again about the US electing a Black president with an Arab middle name, such a jokester”

 

So “would that have been sustainable for a NOAH Ace, whose fans grew up on Misawa and Kobashi over the past decade and a half?”. I don’t know. But weirder things have happened.

[tomk]

Maybe, as we're doing WCW comparisons, the Kobashi vs. Rikio title switch was more like the Flair vs. Garvin title switch than the Hogan vs. Sting title switch?

People knew Rikio was going to win coming in. I mean he already had a title challenge a year before and I can't remember what was done in the buildup for which match but he went over Taue in a contender match. Started getting wins over Misawa in tags. He was being built up for the win and people expect it.

 

Ditch says that Saito wasn't being built up as his first challenger and I remember it being obvious in how Saito was being positioned as a Rikio rival in that I remember laying out that as number one challenge before he even won the belt. But Ditch could be right and it is quite possible that I was just a Saito mark and was blindly hoping for things that weren't being clearly laid out.

 

QUOTE(tomk @ Jan 26 2011, 04:40 PM)

I mean I rarely see people blaming the “booking for the build” to Sting v Hogan as deserving the blame for it’s failure. The blame there is normally firmly laid at the feet of Hogan and Patrick.

I have no idea where this is coming from. The Hogan/Sting build, while not flawless, is generally considered good booking and a financial success. I've yet to see anyone defend how Rikio's reign started

My point was the booking wasn't at fault, but rather the title match, and the reports were that fans turned on the Rikio title run pretty much immdiately after the Kobashi match. Long before first title defense.

 

And I blame the Kobashi match.

 

The only way I can see blaming the booking is if you were going to make the EMLL booking argument.

 

A basic concept in EMLL booking is for a big apuestas match (hair/mask) where a consagrado (guy who is a consecrated legend) is going to loose, you want to book him against a peer. Part of the nature of that type of match is your going to have the legend always look good because he is fighting to hold onto the physical vestige of his legend....and you run the risk of having fans turn on a young wrestler if he wins against a consagrado. The idea here being that "passing the torch" is a myth, beating a legend can do more harm to a young wrestlers career than good.

 

While I think, many times that is true and I think it is part of what went wrong with the Rikio win. I don't think it had to be true here, and I think the booking would have worked if the match had been worked differently.

 

So much of this reminds me of discussions of Tenzan mid-decade. No, he was never going to be Chono. But everyone KNEW that, which made it indefensible (IMO) to pull crap like having him job to Nakamura in December '03

Ok again, I said earlier that I absolutely didn't follow New Japan in any serious way. But they didn't know Nakamura was going to have to vacate the title at the point they gave it to him. My general sense was that New Japan had one peer group that wasn't lighting the world on fire and going to pass over them to the next (who may not have been readied) but weren't as dead as the last one. You sacrifice Hart/Michaels for Rock/Austin. Sacrifice Sting/Luger for Goldberg/Booker T. Yeah it's sad that Luger/Sting or Hart/Michaels never had their long solo time in the spotlight. But you move on.

[Ditch]

There might have been a 'Saito challenge' angle before Rikio won the title that I forgot, but if so it was pretty lazy/uninspired booking.

I wish Misawa had done more paired up Ogawa before moving on to Suzuki. I think moving more or less straight to Suzuki exposed the mechanics of “I’m working with juniors until they’re elevated to point where I can team them with heavys.”.

Huh? Misawa and Ogawa joined up in summer '98, were tag champs in All Japan and twice in NOAH, and lost the tag titles the second time in early '05. Then Misawa teamed with Suzuki in one match of any note whatsoever (vs Ohtani & Takaiwa in March '05).

Ok again, I said earlier that I absolutely didn't follow New Japan in any serious way. But they didn't know Nakamura was going to have to vacate the title at the point they gave it to him. My general sense was that New Japan had one peer group that wasn't lighting the world on fire and going to pass over them to the next (who may not have been readied) but weren't as dead as the last one. You sacrifice Hart/Michaels for Rock/Austin. Sacrifice Sting/Luger for Goldberg/Booker T. Yeah it's sad that Luger/Sting or Hart/Michaels never had their long solo time in the spotlight. But you move on.

New Japan spent the year building up Tenzan's title win, then cut him off at the knees because Inoki wanted Nakamura to win a shootfight while IWGP champion. You know what's dumb booking? Putting the belt on a young guy who's about to go into a shootfight! Nakamura wasn't ready to be champ, and Tenzan hadn't been given a chance to run with the ball. Tenzan had totally delivered in the G-1 Climax, he had a reasonably well-received title win, so there was no reason to give up on him and rush Nakamura into the spotlight. But again, it wasn't a traditional 'elevate the next gen' decision, it was an Inoki decision.

[tomk]

There might have been a 'Saito challenge' angle before Rikio won the title that I forgot, but if so it was pretty lazy/uninspired booking.

I wish Misawa had done more paired up Ogawa before moving on to Suzuki. I think moving more or less straight to Suzuki exposed the mechanics of “I’m working with juniors until they’re elevated to point where I can team them with heavys.”.

Huh? Misawa and Ogawa joined up in summer '98, were tag champs in All Japan and twice in NOAH, and lost the tag titles the second time in early '05. Then Misawa teamed with Suzuki in one match of any note whatsoever (vs Ohtani & Takaiwa in March '05).

 

I doubt the Misawa, Suzuki team did anything of note.. But I'd say starting around 03 when Kobashi wins title your main event six man pairings are Morishima, Rikio, Marafuji ; Akiyama, Saito, Kanemaru ; Misawa, Ogawa, Kotaru Suzuki ; and Kobashi, Kikuchi, Kenta. My sense (which might not be accurate) is that when you ran Rikio/Marafuji or Kobashi/Kenta v Misawa it was Misawa and Suzuki ( I don't remember any real Akiyama, Kanemaru tags). These may have not been of any note but I had the sense of Misawa just moving on from Marafuji to Suzuki.

 

I don't know what else they could've done. Taue I think was normally paired with, Ikeda and whoever they felt like slotting in the third role. While on the one hand that always felt stupid (they never came up with a good way to take full advantage of Taue), maybe doing Misawa, Ogawa, Sano one week and Misawa, Ogawa, Kawabata team the next would have been better than trading Marafuji over and replacing him with Suzuki. I don't know...once in a while, I think about if things would have shaken out differently if NOAH had Mossman/Kea, but for the most part I really try to avoid fantasy booking.

 

Is there somewhere on the web where I can find history of NOAH show matchlists because doing this from memories of what it was that I was writing at the time is a strain on weak memory and I'm sure I'm conflating shit that happened in different years, and talking about results that never happened and making lots of mistakes.

 

New Japan spent the year building up Tenzan's title win, then cut him off at the knees because Inoki wanted Nakamura to win a shootfight while IWGP champion. You know what's dumb booking? Putting the belt on a young guy who's about to go into a shootfight

If that's the case of what was going on, then yeah that was fucking stupid.

[FLIK]

Is there somewhere on the web where I can find history of NOAH show matchlists

http://purolove.com/

[Ditch]

There really was not a significant amount of Misawa/Kotaro pairings. The only other Misawa/Junior vs Heavyweight/Junior type tag I can think of is Misawa/Marufuji vs Kobashi/KENTA from 1/26/03.

If that's the case of what was going on, then yeah that was fucking stupid.

And the worst part was the number of NJ fanboys defending it, who weeks before were going gaga over Tenzan's push.