Loss Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Talk about it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 This is a lost classic. It's probably the best NJ heavies match for either '96 or '93, at least at this point. It's not as bomb-heavy as your typical All Japan main event of the time, but it's every bit as smartly laid out. Hase slowly destroys Hashimoto through a series of figure fours and Hash fights back with brutal kicks. The matwork is as engaging as in any match I've seen so far in '93 because they are constantly building off the previous struggle instead of just killing time. A MOTYC in a crowded year, and maybe my favorite Hase match (possibly even Hashimoto match) ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I remember this being really good but not quite as good as their title match from 1994. Have you seen that one Loss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I have, but don't remember much about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I think the title match is a bit better. The finish here felt less like "Hey cool Hase gets the upset!" and instead more like "Well, it's Choshu booking and it's Hase's turn to get an upset". Not a massive knock, but Choshu had so many of these upsets that this one didn't hit me much. Tenzan over Hash or even Kojima over Kosh in the 1996 G1 seemed to have a better upset vibe, probably since it was the Young Guy pulling it off rather than Hase actually being older than Hash. The finish of the title match seemed to hit the spot better: Hash is pushed more than he would have expected from a guy a ways down the Challenger List, but Hash eventually puts him away. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I think the title match is a bit better. The finish here felt less like "Hey cool Hase gets the upset!" and instead more like "Well, it's Choshu booking and it's Hase's turn to get an upset". Not a massive knock, but Choshu had so many of these upsets that this one didn't hit me much. Tenzan over Hash or even Kojima over Kosh in the 1996 G1 seemed to have a better upset vibe, probably since it was the Young Guy pulling it off rather than Hase actually being older than Hash. The finish of the title match seemed to hit the spot better: Hash is pushed more than he would have expected from a guy a ways down the Challenger List, but Hash eventually puts him away. Â John It was definitely an upset given their respective positions at the time, but it really feels like a deserved win. Hashimoto is one of the best ever at putting others over. When he does a job, he always goes out of his way to make the other guy look good in winning and usually forfeits a good portion of the match. Hase outwrestled him from start to finish in this one. Â People would talk for years about Muto/Hase being this great old school match, but I think this fits the description much better. It's not consciously nostalgic and overly calculated like Muto/Hase was, but it feels like a high-end 70s match because of all the matwork with meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I never really thought the matwork was anything other than your standard fare for New Japan, and partly for that reason I always preferred Hase's match with Chono because they got out of it far sooner. Then again, I'm so apathetic to New Japan's obligatory opening/time-killing matwork at this point that there's a chance I just zoned out on it. Â I really like both Hase/Hash matches, mind, though like John I prefered the '94 one. I wouldn't call either more than bordrline/outside MOTYC, but they were both key factors in the NJ Heavyweight Re-evaluation when most people soured on the juniors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 People would talk for years about Muto/Hase being this great old school match, but I think this fits the description much better. It's not consciously nostalgic and overly calculated like Muto/Hase was, but it feels like a high-end 70s match because of all the matwork with meaning. Do people really talk about the various Hase-Mutoh/Muta matches as being great old school matches? I thought people largely talked about them being bloodbaths. Maybe someone has talked about the blood aspects being Old School, which in a sense might be correct. Just don't think anyone ever thought the Hase-Muta were mat matches. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Meltzer raved about the 6/6/01 Mutoh/Hase match being a "throwback to the 70's" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Oh, God, I haven't watched that show in years... though I recall it being a really good show and the best top-to-bottom card of the NJ/AJ feud. Â I guess there's a chance of confusion there, but Muta/Hase 90/92 are very different matches to Muto/Hase 01, and are also significantly more well-known over the years. Like John, I always thought they were famous for the blood/Mutascale primarilly. Â A point on Hase, though, and maybe it's me, but I've always found him one of the most dynamic wrestlers. 'Dynamic' might not be the correct word, but he always came across as superbly athletic without doing the flying spots we associate with that. In a New Japan setting in particular, it works really well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 So I rewatched this because I liked the Chono match better, but I loved this so much. Â Lost classic is probably overstating it. Highly enjoyable, excellent match is not. Â Still a match that will rank well for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 People would talk for years about Muto/Hase being this great old school match, but I think this fits the description much better. It's not consciously nostalgic and overly calculated like Muto/Hase was, but it feels like a high-end 70s match because of all the matwork with meaning. Do people really talk about the various Hase-Mutoh/Muta matches as being great old school matches? I thought people largely talked about them being bloodbaths. Maybe someone has talked about the blood aspects being Old School, which in a sense might be correct. Just don't think anyone ever thought the Hase-Muta were mat matches.  John  I was referring to the 2001 match that's basically 40 minutes of laying on the mat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Oh hell, that match doesn't count. Â And I seem to recall Dave's comments / reviews of puroresu heavies in that time frame being not-so-good, with the stuff about the greatness of Mutoh being especially not among his best analysis. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 2001 Mutoh was kinda the peak of "ring psychology consists solely of body part selling" thinking about smarks, wasn't it? Mutoh's shtick that led to all of the comments from Dave and others raving about his psychology was just him constantly working his opponent's knee to set up the Shining Wizard or maybe a figure four leglock submission. Has anyone here watched his Triple Crown win over Tenryu recently? That was the most widely liked Mutoh match from that period and was a workrate sprint that was completely the opposite of what was expected of them. Â By the way...when did "Mutoh" and "Ohtani" become the accepted Romanization/transliteration, anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I don't think smarks had any impact on what Dave over-pimped in that period. Â Also don't know if selling body parts was ever the high church of psych. I mean, did Misawa regularly sell body parts... or just sell that he was getting his ass kicked? It didn't stop the push for a few years that every time he got dropped on his head that the *opponent* was attacking his bad neck/back/spine/what-have-you. To the point that it was painful to read. Â Beats me when the "h" came in vogue. I flip back and forth between them, probably using the h one day and not the next. Mutoh is so common not that his wiki page is Mutoh. Otani's doesn't have the h. So... beats me. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I should amend that: It was body parts and "learned psychology" with plenty of praise for the latter in AJPW. Â Dave was far from the only person pushing Mutoh as the master of ring psychology for the work the leg shtick back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Hasn't it always been somewhat in vogue? Or, y'know... overstated? It probably grew out of the whole Anderson thing where the commentators would constantly harp on about "picking a body part and going to work on it". But it's really pretty silly. If all your match has going for it story-wise is "a guy works the arm/leg/whatever" than it's not really much of one. And, of course, the "best singles match ever" Misawa/Kawada has a 10-minute (ish?) section of a "neck" control and a "leg" control that they "blow off", but I don't think I've come across anyone criticising that match on account of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 The best learned psychology I ever read about was to do with Punk/Joe. Punk dodged the Ole Kick in the second match (so he learned to dodge a kick to the face, basically), and Joe finally figured out a headlock counter of some sort? (some ace). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Tenryu vs Mutoh from '01 holds up. Keep in mind we are talking about Tenryu here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 "Oh" is a non-Hepburn method of representing the long vowel sound without using a macron above the "o". Most of the time the macron is left off and the name written as otani or muto, but people with these names can choose to add an "h" if they wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 One issue with it is that people (myself included) tend to be inconsistent. For instance you don't see "Ohmori", though I think I saw it once on a show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 It doesn't really make a difference. Romaji is only really used for passports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I should amend that: It was body parts and "learned psychology" with plenty of praise for the latter in AJPW. I don't even know what "learned psychology" is and how it relates to AJPW. I'm glad to know there's at least one thing about AJPW analysis that I can't be blamed for.   Dave was far from the only person pushing Mutoh as the master of ring psychology for the work the leg shtick back then. Really? My recollection is that in the circle I ran in, we ripped the shit out of Mutoh and his Pro Wrestling Love bullshit... right down to the Gimp Photo that Swing made. Did the DVDVR guys think he was the shit?  Version 1.0 - Nov 1999: 139 Kenji Muto Version 2.0 - May 2000: 130 Keiji Muto Version 3.0 - Nov 2000: 183 Keiji Mutoh Version 4.0 - May 2001: Not ranked Version 5.0 - Nov 2001: 13 Keiji Mutoh Version 6.0 - May 2002: 164 Keiji Mutoh Version 7.0 - Nov 2002: 300 Keiji Mutoh Version 8.0 - May 2003: Not Ranked  Okay, there was a brief moment of insanity for six months in 2001, and then they snapped out of it.  While we're at it, who accepts the blame for the Nov 2001 ranking? Lord knows some of us get slagged for dumb (and at time correct) things we said a decade (or two) ago. Some folks need to step up and take the hit for that one.  The people who put the list together are: Dean Rasmussen, Phil Rippa, Phil Schneider, Marcel Hille, Tom Karro-Gassner, Mike Naimark, Tony Gancarski, Ray Duffy and Pete Stein. Hmm... I can see how this will go...  "It was Ganc's fault. We all had his rated down in the 100's, but Ganc had him #1 and that outweighed us."   John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 "Learned psychology" was a term someone came up with (and others later made fun of) for stuff playing off previous matches. It could lead to some incredibly bizarre over analysis . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 I certainly talked about playing off earlier matches, though it's something that goes back a long time before I ever started talking about wrestling. And we just had Loss going through 1996 and pointing out things that built off themes developed through the year. I think that was a lot less "influence" of old writings on him than "obvious": some things are pretty obvious when you see a run of matches in some context. Â But "Learned psychology"... yeah, that phrase ain't mine. Â john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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