[1993-08-03-NJPW-G1 Climax] Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto

[jdw]

I'd also wonder: what does past matches have to do with Mutoh?

 

John

[MJH]

Well there's obviously a world of difference between a "progression" of matches in fairly quick succession, and spots that resurface in a similar manner. Only a few months ago I read something alone the lines of Kobashi's match with '03 GHC defense against Honda (or at least a sequence down the stretch) played off his '99 match with Mike Awesome. The instances of matches "playing off" one another years later is a short list anyway (I'm thinking the '03 Misawa/Kobashi ramp-spot onwards as one, but that's a match they wanted to have years earlier anyway), the idea that Kobashi would play off a hardly-well-known match four years earlier is just...

 

And, of course, you also have instances were people are so enamoured with the idea of matches "playing off" each other that they call for it where it wouldn't remotely fit. The idea that Austin/Hart at Mania is a lesser match than it could've been if they'd only repeated the Survivor Series finish and have Bret trapped because pinfalls don't count. Ignoring that that particular spot wouldn't have remotely fit into what they were trying to do at Mania.

 

Like so many things it's cool when done effectively as part of a bigger idea, but not much on it's own, and actually a rather silly thing to purely base a match around. What's the Ebert essay regarding Travolta/Thurman dancing for no reason other than it "plays off" Pulp Fiction?

[Loss]

I would say the easiest way to say it is that call backs to previous matches are so overstated and obvious that they're hard to miss. Anything subtle or not readily apparent is either a wrestler not doing his job well or a fan having an active imagination.

[jdw]

And, of course, you also have instances were people are so enamoured with the idea of matches "playing off" each other that they call for it where it wouldn't remotely fit. The idea that Austin/Hart at Mania is a lesser match than it could've been if they'd only repeated the Survivor Series finish and have Bret trapped because pinfalls don't count. Ignoring that that particular spot wouldn't have remotely fit into what they were trying to do at Mania.

Actually, it could have easily fit in. Didn't have to be the finish of Mania or even near the finish, but it easily could have fit into it.

 

I'm not sure if Mania is a less match without it. But it was a simple thing to add.

 

2/97 Liger-Ohtani has the finish of the 3/96 Liger-Ohtani. Except... it doesn't work this time despite being hit. So Liger needs to do more, they go past their prior midnight, and work more into the match. Is the spot a positive spot in 2/97. It was to me, because I remembered the prior match. If I were there live, I would be thinking it might be the finish: Liger beat him with this before, and he's gotten it over as one of his finishers in the past year. When it doesn't keep the kid down, I'd be thinking:

 

"Cool... they got more shit thought out here to do."

 

 

Like so many things it's cool when done effectively as part of a bigger idea, but not much on it's own, and actually a rather silly thing to purely base a match around.

I'm at a loss of anyone claiming an entire match is based around such a concept.

 

There are a variety of things that people point to in the old "reaching back" concept.

 

Some of them are very specific, and obvious plans by the wrestlers. Liger-Ohtani is one of those. We can toss around a lot of analysis of what they're doing in the two matches, some of which we'd agree on and some of which we might not. But if one watches those two matches back-to-back, it's pretty impossible to claim that repeating the finish of the earlier match and using it as a pass through wasn't an intentional thing Liger and Ohtani were doing. One would basically just want to be a contrarian to claim that wasn't the case.

 

That's a specific spot. Sometimes there are themes where somewhat similar spots are used repeatedly to get across a theme that eventually is paid off on. Some of the most obvious are drawn out "turns", even more obvious when either overplayed by the wrestlers or the announcer. Some maybe are less obvious, but they are out there. Again, Loss saw and wrote about some themes touching back on earlier matches that fit in with stuff that I could probably go back and also see talking about in my Torch reviews of the matches. I don't think Loss was a Torch reader.

 

Those things are pretty clearly planned by the wrestlers.

 

Probably less planned are when they use common structures / layouts / themes, which also happen to be used in other matchs.

 

All Japan in tags love to roll out the Go It Alone storyline. One member of the tag team gets toasted, the other member has to fight against the odds against the 2-on-1. All Japan didn't invent it. They aren't the only people to do it. Not even going to argue they do it better than anyone else. Simply that they do it, and you'll run across it in a lot of tags. The Funks loved doing it with Terry getting knocked goofy and Dory going alone (which always was odd since Terry was the better face in peril). The Funks spawned a lot of All Japan wrestlers who used it, either their pupils or simply guys who saw it and used it.

 

Does 12/93 intentionally "play off" 12/88? Did Kawada sit down with the other three:

 

"Look, my knee is fucked up, so here what we can do: play off that last match of the 1988 Tag League where Tenryu had to go it alone because Hansen & Gordy screwed up my knee. Wait, as a twist, rather than Taue going it alone down the stretch because of my knee, we'll put me in the spot of symbolically going it alone because I can't tag out. I'm playing both roles... cool, right? This is like Oscar level shit."

 

No, of course he didn't.

 

But there's little doubt that they did sit down and talk structure:

 

* the knee would be a storyline in the match

* Kawada would work the long final stretch

* the knee eventually would prevent him from tagging out to Taue

* Kawada would eventually get worn down and pinned

 

So while the structure isn't intentionally planned to play off 1988, we do have in that earlier match:

 

* Kawada's knee becomes a storyline in the match

* Tenryu would work the long final stretch of the match

* the knee prevent Kawada from being able to tag *in* for Tenryu

* Tenryu would eventually get worn down and pinned

 

They laid out a storyline in 1993 for the match that is very similar to 1988. Not terribly surprising since AJPW liked the Go It Alone storyline.

 

Unintentional? Sure, probably, none of us have ever talked to Kawada about the match, and even if we did we'd be unlikely to get a straight answer.

 

As a fan watching it at the time?

 

12/88 wasn't a throw away match. It was All Japan's Final Match Of The Year. Those weren't all memorable, but that one wasn't in the bottom 25% in terms of AJFMOTY's at that point: it was into the mid-90s a reasonably well known match from the Revolution era, to say the least. In terms of Kawada, the 1988 Tag League was a reasonably well known event in Kawada's career arc, to say the very least... as was that specific match.

 

You watch Kawada in December of 1993 in AJFMOTY with a knee injury, with someone going it alone down the stretch, and the higher slotted guy Kawada's side eating the pin... you're going to think of 1988 if you:

 

* have been watching AJPW since then

* are paying attention

* are paying attention specifically to Kawada

 

It would be a bit like if in the late 80s Phobe Cates was coming out of a pool in a red bathing suit, you know a bit about her career, and happened to have seen one of his most famous roles (frankly her most famous role), let's be honest that one of the most likely things is going to pop into your head:

 

"Please don't tell me Judge Reinhold is going to pop up in this scene and..."

 

It may not have been intentional on the part of the writer, director or even Phobe, but we as the audience who've been watching her for a while can't help but remember Fast Times At Ridgemont High and the defining moment of her career.

 

12/88 might not have been the defining moment of Kawada's career up through 12/93. I could point to something, I guess... if I try hard enough... maybe. I don't know, let's just say that 12/88 was up there. I suspect a majority of us, had we been AJPW fans from 1988-1993, would have had 12/88 cross our minds while watching 12/93. Look at some of the amazingly *small* details and triva that we toss out all the time. We've got people on the board who can keep all the Rock-Austin matches straight when I can barely remember all the details of the one I like the most.

 

Is 12/93 rich, deep psychology and storytelling reaching back five years?

 

I don't think intentionally. For match storytelling, of what they wanted to do in the specific match, it does come across that they laid out a pretty smart psych match.

 

Did they think about having Kawada in the 1993 match play elements of both the Kawada and Tenryu roles from the 1988 match?

 

No, they almost certainly didn't think that deeply. It just kind of happened.

 

As a fan watching the soap opera of AJPW over those past five years, does what they did end up fitting into a rather rich, deep storyline even if they weren't specifically trying to?

 

Yeah.

 

We more often get the opposite:

 

"Why is Sting trusting this guy who will only turn on him?"

 

Which forces us to either be dumb:

 

"Well, I'll just play along, pretend it's not obvious and Sting should have seen it coming."

 

Or wise asses:

 

"Sting is the dumbest motherfucker in pro wrestling."

 

 

12/93 was one where you could play along with the match in it's obvious narrative, and also put onto a book shelf and ponder how it fit in with other books earlier in th series. In this case, it happened by luck or fluke or devine intervention to fit in rather nicely.

 

Now the finish of 12/93 is something else entirely different.

 

John

[Bix]

The Rock doing Bret Hart's sleeper reversal in the 2nd and 3rd WM matches ith Austin: Probable callback or homage

Steamboat using the Double Arm Chickenwing on Flair in '94: Obvious callback to the 2nd and 3rd falls of their Clash 6 match

Linda Miles working Nidia's arm at Arena Coliseo in Mexicon televised in Japan to play off a match on WWE Heat when they did the same: You're reading way too much into it, possibly for prurient reasons.

[jdw]

I would say the easiest way to say it is that call backs to previous matches are so overstated and obvious that they're hard to miss. Anything subtle or not readily apparent is either a wrestler not doing his job well or a fan having an active imagination.

active imagination is a bit strong.

 

Do you follow any sports, Loss? Do you have anything in your sporting fandom that's similar to say Bucky Dent hitting the dinger off Mike Torrez?

 

If you were a Yankees fan or a Red Sox fan in that era, that play was forever branded in your brain. When you see Bucky Dent, if it's not the first thing you think of, it's high on the list. Same with Torrez.

 

If you see Dent in Fenway park, it jumps into your head *instantly*.

 

If you saw Dent playing against the Red Sox later in his career, it was what came to mind.

 

If you saw Dent facing Torrez, it came to mind.

 

Put some of them together:

 

If you saw Dent in Fenway hitting a dinger over the Green Monster to beat the Red Sox...

 

"Fuck me... it's happened again."

 

Put some things together:

 

If you saw Kawada in the last match on the last Budokan of the year with his knee shredded and one of the members of his team working the long last stretch of the match before getting worn down in defeat...

 

"Fuck me... it's happened again."

 

Pro Wrestling is entertainment... fake sports as entertainment.

 

If any time we see young Phobe Cates in red bathing suit we think of Fast Times, and every time we see Bucky Dent hitting a dinger in Fenway to down the Red Sox we think of the 163rd Game of the 1978 American League Season, then...

 

Why is it an active imagination to actually remember what Kawada has done at a key moment earlier in his career. A rather famous match, with some rather famous guys in there with him, in a rather big setting... in the biggest match of his career to that point?

 

I think everyone knows that I'm not one of those Wrestling Is Art folks, as I went so far in the opposite direction as to offer up Porn Is Art as an example of how silly the Wrestling Is Art folks were being.

 

But I also tend to think there's a desire for us to reduce it to:

 

Wrestling Fans Are Dumb Motherfuckers

 

And any time we try to give a bit of thought to watch we watch, enjoy, dislike, praise, criticize, we're end up back at...

 

"You think too much."

-Dave Scherer

 

John

[jdw]

Linda Miles working Nidia's arm at Arena Coliseo in Mexicon televised in Japan to play off a match on WWE Heat when they did the same: You're reading way too much into it, possibly for prurient reasons.

Please don't tell me someone did this.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

I think it's entirely possible that Baba instructed them to do specific things in matches given what we know about Baba and his control over the ringwork. In fact., I'd argue that the decline in All Japan ringwork corresponded directly with the deterioration in Baba's health and the lessening of his input. If Baba had died earlier, I don't think you would've ever seen a match on the level of 12/93.

[Bix]

Linda Miles working Nidia's arm at a show at Arena Coliseo in Mexico televised in Japan to play off a match on WWE Heat when they did the same: You're reading way too much into it, possibly for prurient reasons.

Please don't tell me someone did this.

 

Someone really did this. You may not have ever crossed paths with him, though.

[MJH]

Actually, it could have easily fit in. Didn't have to be the finish of Mania or even near the finish, but it easily could have fit into it.

 

I'm not sure if Mania is a less match without it. But it was a simple thing to add.

But... the goal of Mania is to make Austin come out the sympathetic figure. Had they done the Dream spot, that's a big spot in the match where Bret's the sympathetic figure. Presumably, as well, it would have to feature down the stretch. Now, it's a No DQ match, so making the ropes even is not an option. The only way out of the spot is for Bret to counter. In a different company, perhaps, the idea that Bret was able to counter and is the superior wrestler, whereas Austin, whilst the inferior grappler and as such unable to spring a counter, was too tough to quit, that might work. In the WWF? They just want Austin is too tough to quit. Besides, Bret's turning heel in the stretch and afterwards, so why the big babyface spot for him in the midst of that?

 

...

 

On the subject of the tag league "finals" five years apart, I'm generally in agreement. And whilst I'm not a particularly big fan of their matches, Ohtani/Liger is an example where I fully believe it's intentional as well.

 

A better example of the happenstance might by how the powerbombs supposedly figure up in Tenryu/Jumbo and Misawa/Kawada. Or maybe that's the Dark Side of the Moon/Wizard of Oz of wrestling.

 

In the same match, though, I've read people bear great significance into the backdrop from Misawa. There's a 'chance', perhaps, that, after losing the opening strike sequence, it's a way for him to re-establish himself using a move synononmous with the "ace" role, but in all likelihood, he just needed move x and that was emphatic enough whilst being mid-level to fit the bill.

 

There's plenty of examples, of course. If people want to do it, great. But wrestling's fundamentally simple. The idea that All Japan didn't have faces/heels, that Kawada wasn't playing the chickenshit role at the start of 5/94 tag, etc... there's often a strong stench of "we must glorify this as serious art" about it, y'know? It's wrestling.

[Resident Evil]

I've heard rumblings about Baba's influence. What do you know Ohtani?

[jdw]

I think it's entirely possible that Baba instructed them to do specific things in matches given what we know about Baba and his control over the ringwork. In fact., I'd argue that the decline in All Japan ringwork corresponded directly with the deterioration in Baba's health and the lessening of his input. If Baba had died earlier, I don't think you would've ever seen a match on the level of 12/93.

AJPW ringwork declined in 1997. Not sure that Baba's health had anything to do with as all of the decline in 1997 was in motion going back to at least 1995, very much a function of the direction they were headed in.

 

Really never heard that Baba was detailed in what people should do in the ring. There were stylistic things he liked and didn't like. But he pretty much let Misawa and Kobashi go where they were going.

 

John

[jdw]

But... the goal of Mania is to make Austin come out the sympathetic figure. Had they done the Dream spot, that's a big spot in the match where Bret's the sympathetic figure. Presumably, as well, it would have to feature down the stretch. Now, it's a No DQ match, so making the ropes even is not an option. The only way out of the spot is for Bret to counter. In a different company, perhaps, the idea that Bret was able to counter and is the superior wrestler, whereas Austin, whilst the inferior grappler and as such unable to spring a counter, was too tough to quit, that might work. In the WWF? They just want Austin is too tough to quit. Besides, Bret's turning heel in the stretch and afterwards, so why the big babyface spot for him in the midst of that?

It's a 22 minute no dq *submission* match, in which Stone Cold had exactly one submission coming in: the Dream, which was the finish of the last match. It's obvious to use. It's obvious to tease Austin's best chance of winning the match. So if you're going to do those two things, you might as well play off the finish of the last one where Austin was in a position where he wouldn't lose this time.

 

It's the WWF: it's not impossible to come up with a creative way for the hold to be broken. Kick him in the nuts if you feel it's vital for Austin to "look strong" and Bret to "look heel", though frankly it wasn't explicit until the following night the Bret was heel.

 

As far as inferior, Austin *is* inferior in the match. Bret beats him clean, and bloodies the fuck out of him. Austin looks "good" by not quiting and eating the Dusty Passes Out Finish. There really isn't any reason that he can't have the Dream broken/reversed. I'm willing to bet that is at least one spot in the match as it is where Bret "out wrestles" or "out smarts" or simply counters Austin. Please don't tell me that there aren't any Missed Lariat Transitions in the match.

 

 

A better example of the happenstance might by how the powerbombs supposedly figure up in Tenryu/Jumbo and Misawa/Kawada.

I actually like the powerbombs comp of Kawada-Williams to Misawa-Kawada better. Don't recall every making a link in the powerbombs to Jumbo-Tenryu unless it's that Kawada's primary finisher is that of his mentor, which is less happenstance than a factual statement.

 

The powerbomb comp of Kawada-Williams to Misawa-Kawada is likely happenstance, one that they kind of lucked into and is kind of cool. On the other hand, I have more fun talking about Misawa Fan in the powerbombs that a tie-in to Kawada-Doc.

 

 

In the same match, though, I've read people bear great significance into the backdrop from Misawa. There's a 'chance', perhaps, that, after losing the opening strike sequence, it's a way for him to re-establish himself using a move synononmous with the "ace" role, but in all likelihood, he just needed move x and that was emphatic enough whilst being mid-level to fit the bill.

I never saw the backdrop as synononmous in All Japan with the Ace role. It wasn't a critical move of Baba's. He used it, but things like the neckbreaker drop were his key finisher in some very major AJPW matches. Jumbo certainly used it, but he used other things as well. It clearly was his primary finisher in the 90s. As far as Misawa, it always was a low end move for him. He frankly even had his own way of doing it that linked to pretty much one thing: Misawa.

 

 

There's plenty of examples, of course. If people want to do it, great. But wrestling's fundamentally simple. The idea that All Japan didn't have faces/heels, that Kawada wasn't playing the chickenshit role at the start of 5/94 tag, etc... there's often a strong stench of "we must glorify this as serious art" about it, y'know? It's wrestling.

It is wrestling. That doesn't mean we can't think about it.

 

Of course All Japan had heels and faces. They often took different, less obvious shape than say Face Hogan vs Heel Orndorff with Heel Manager Heenan, so people not knowledgeable or paying attention might not get who the faces/heels/technicos/rudos are.

 

I haven't watched the start of the 5/94 tag in ages, so I don't recall the specifics. I take it that Kawada didn't want to work with someone? Which is a pretty common thing: we see Tenryu wanting to start against Jumbo and Jumbo can't be bothered with it. Does it have an origin in chickenshit stuff? Sure. Is it what we think of as typical chickenshit stuff like Macho hiding behind Liz or Cornette in a handicap match only tagging in when the face is down? Not really.

 

But that also isn't uncommon. I recall people getting offended when Frank or I pointed out that Lou worked an NWA Champ style opposite Gagne, right down to stooging stuff. Then Frank took a screen capture of Lou "begging off". It isn't quite Ric Flair level of begging off, but it's also clear that he is.

 

Were/are we a bit strong to say that Lou was being a chickenshit stooge at times in the match? Sure. It was trying to get across the point that the percept that Lou worked as a straight, sporting Champ was bullshit. He was the NWA champ, and aspects of the style go back to him... and almost certainly prior to him.

 

It's wrestling and we can fancy it up to high heaven. Like I said, I'm not a Wrestling Is Art guy. But I'll talk about the positive aspects of the TV show Castle and things they do well similar to how I'll talk about positive aspects of Kawada-Misawa. Or in turn, I like the show Justified but if we had a conversation about Season 2, I'd like probably point out some things that I didn't like so much about it.

 

There's this notion that how we talk about Wrestling isn't what we do elsewhere. I tend to think that's bullshit. Those of us who are sports fans will talk endlessly about it, going over what are teams should and shouldn't do. If we're movie fans and let's say comic fans, we would talk endlessly about Thor. I talk with the gf all the time about Castle... or Leverage, etc.

 

Somehow we want to reduce our pro wrestling talk to this:

 

"That was a nice home run A-Rod hit."

 

"Sure was."

 

"How many was that for the year?"

 

"Beats me. I don't pay attention to those stats."

 

"Yeah, me neither.

 

"I think he's having a good year, but couldn't tell you if he were hitting .200 or .300. Stats suck."

 

"Yeah, I agee. Hey... are the Yankees in first place?"

 

"I don't pay attention to the standings. I just care about the game I'm watching right now."

 

"Me too. I like to be surprised if they end up in the post season or miss it."

 

John

[Ditch]

I lean towards JDW on this. Not everything we see as a callback is explicitly intended as such, but even unintentional continuity is still continuity. I especially tend to give the benefit of the doubt to Japanese matches, since in Japan almost everything is 'canon'. Matches are laid out in certain ways, certain wrestlers have similar things happen to them, and when it's done properly it adds depth and drama to the match rather than being predictable. The best Misawa matches revolved around whether or not he made his big comeback, and that struggle was the polar opposite of the move-for-move same Hulk Hogan style comeback. Was 6/9/95 wrestled with "Kawada and Taue keep cutting Misawa's comeback off" explicitly in mind? Maybe not, but they laid the match out in a way that fans who have learned to expect the comeback are left on the edge of their seats each time Misawa gets cut off. It's subtle compared to the average callback spot, but I still think it's legitimate.

[MJH]

I think - with the exception of Bret/Austin (see below) - we're actually arguing in agreement, John.

 

My point isn't that "callbacks" or "playing off" doesn't exist. It does, very much so, and I love it when it works well. My point is that some people take the idea way too far. Hell, I've been guilty of it myself in the past.

 

...

 

As far as the Bret/Austin thing goes, I think calling it a "submission" match is something of a misnomer. It wasn't even Angle vs. Benoit in that sense. Austin was never going into that match trying to submit Bret with a hold. I'm foggy on the TV build up, but I'm 99% that Austin was building his side of the match that he planned to "beat Bret into submission".

 

Ultimately, it's a minor thing one way or the other. Personally, putting myself in the Patterson role, I wouldn't've done that spot were it suggested by someone (and it quite possibly was). If the goal's for Austin to come out as the sympathetic figure, I would not have any notable amount of time with Bret as the sympathetic figure in the match. Nothing that people would remember (which I think they definitely would with that spot).

 

Austin would have his time on offence, of course, but I'd give Bret the majority of the stretch. And, aside from a real moment of desperation, and even then only perhaps, I wouldn't have Austin use a submission as a serious threat. I don't think it fits in with his gimmick and character by that point. The same reason I wouldn't have Hansen use a figure-four or whatever.

 

I'd've maybe got a kick out of it had they done it (especially with the bell already being involved as a double WM8 callback too), but I wouldn't have scripted it in the match. Like I said, though, it'd be a very minor thing one way or the other. It's not "should Shawn have nipped-up" or whatever.

[jdw]

As far as the Bret/Austin thing goes, I think calling it a "submission" match is something of a misnomer.

It was build as a submission match going in From Graham's site:

 

WWF @ Worcester, MA - Centrum - March 10, 1997 (7,481)

Raw is War - featured Jim Ross conducting an in-ring interview with Ken Shamrock, during which it was announced he would be the guest referee for the Bret Hart / Steve Austin submission match at WrestleMania XIII; after Shamrock said he wasn't intimidated by anyone, Austin appeared on the Titantron and said Hart would defeat Sid the following week in their steel cage title match so that he could beat Bret for the title at WrestleMania; Hart then came out, told Shamrock he respected him, said he was sick of the injustices in the WWF and how everyone had screwed him, and said he would beat Sid for the title next week; included closing comments from Bret about his title shot the following week where he sarcastically said he got the match by crying to Gorilla Monsoon, after it was stated earlier in the show that all Bret does is cry and whine

 

WWF @ Syracuse, NY - War Memorial - March 17, 1997 (4,737)

Raw is War - included Kevin Kelly conducting an in-ring interview with Bret Hart, discussing his title shot later in the show and his submission match against Steve Austin at WrestleMania 13

It's kind of why they had Shamrock as the ref.

 

 

Ultimately, it's a minor thing one way or the other. Personally, putting myself in the Patterson role, I wouldn't've done that spot were it suggested by someone (and it quite possibly was). If the goal's for Austin to come out as the sympathetic figure, I would not have any notable amount of time with Bret as the sympathetic figure in the match. Nothing that people would remember (which I think they definitely would with that spot).

I'm at a loss on how the Dream would make Bret "sympathetic". It's just a hold. It's like saying Bret should stop using the Sharpshooter when going heel because it was a beloved babyface finisher for nearly a decade by 1997. Or that Face Stone Cold shouldn't use the Stunner because he debuted it as a Heel.

 

It's just a spot. One the fans knew. One that was the finish of the prior match, that any fan who had a memory would recall... and I'm not one to chalk up wrestling fans as being such extreme dumbasses that they couldn't remember in March 1997 what happened in November 1996.

 

Lord... sympathetic? If the point of the commntary is to get Austin over (which was the case for a lot of what Ross was saying that day), you could easily have Ross pop wood over Stone Cold going to the dream in the first 10 minutes of the match, getting across how smart he was because while he lost with it in the first match, now he can't get pinned... "Bret's in trouble!!!!"

 

Then if we're so intent on gettig symapthy on Austin and making Bret looking like shit (which I'll dispute were the full goal of what they were trying to do in the match), then simply have Bret get in position when he can pop Austin in the nuts. Doesn't matter how much of a man's man that Stone Cold is: a good shot in the nuts is going to break a hold.

 

 

Austin would have his time on offence, of course, but I'd give Bret the majority of the stretch. And, aside from a real moment of desperation, and even then only perhaps, I wouldn't have Austin use a submission as a serious threat. I don't think it fits in with his gimmick and character by that point. The same reason I wouldn't have Hansen use a figure-four or whatever.

Oh god... I feel like I have to watch the match again and offer up a moment where they could have simply replaced what Austin was going with a short Dream segment.

 

I love the match. It's a really entertaining match. I don't think it's a massively flawed match. I just think that could have slipped the Dream into it to play off the first match. And I suspect that if we actually block out the match, it wouldn't be hard to figure out there to put it in without rebooking / rewriting / fucking up the living shit out of the rest of the match.

 

This isn't terribly complicated. It's a bit like people getting up at arms about two long standing issues / wish list items that people have with Macho-Steamer at WM-III:

 

* Steamer fire

* Steele suck

 

Over time a lot of us have come to see the "fire" issue in a different light because of the Toronto match. But still...

 

Folks weren't/aren't arguing for radical revision of the Mania match. It takes how long to get across hate? 30 seconds? 60 seconds? In a match that goes 875 second, not even counting the pre-match where you could do something to get it across? Absent Toronto, it wouldn't have been hard to get it in. No one ever was asking for this to be Maggie vs Tully from Starcade. Just Steamer showing that he thought the guy across the ring was a cocksucker for trying to destroy his throat.

 

On the Animal thing, again people weren't calling for a total rebook of the match: they just didn't want Animal involved in the finish. That's not really complicated.

 

Now... I don't have issues with Animal being involved. The Savage-Animal storyline went back quite a while, and this played into it okay. On the Hate issue, Toronto gave me what I want, and I've come to see Mania as Steamer dropping the hate (which ended up leading to a loss in Toronto) and going back to the basics that helped him have Randy's number at the start of the feud. So those aren't my criticism anymore.

 

The points, though, are:

 

* those criticism would be pretty easy to address without "ruining" Mania

* Mania still is a good match even without them

 

Bret-Austin still is a good match. In terms of internal logic if one wants to think about it a bit, there is a problem of Austin going into a Submission Match without trying for what is frankly his *only* submission up to that point in his WWF career. I happen to think about it a bit, so that one stands out to me. It's a bit like racing in the Indy 500 with a Nissan 370Z. Sure, you've got a pretty fast care. But it's *Indy* racing, and you can't win with a non-Indy car. It's a submission match. As a wrestler with Austin's No Dream Startegy, he's:

 

* at best just stuborn in wanting to beat up Bret and thus going to lose because he has no submission

 

* at worst a dumb motherfucker because he can't win the match and is to stupid to grasp it

 

 

John

[Bix]

That said, it was worked as an I Quit Match without a mic or the specifics.

[Resident Evil]

I don't think it fits in with his gimmick and character by that point. The same reason I wouldn't have Hansen use a figure-four or whatever.

Austin's personality was indeed changed some before the Mania match. At Survivor Series he was a wrestling machine and the ringmaster. At Mania, he was a brawler who was not versed in submissions. I thnk he even menitions or alludes to this in the prematch Mania interview. So that's another reason why he didn't use the Million Dollar Dream. I remember thinking about how odd that was at the time but told myself "It's WWF and their history rules again"

[ohtani's jacket]

I've heard rumblings about Baba's influence. What do you know Ohtani?

My understanding of it is quite different from John's. I've always heard that Baba was quite hands on about how he wanted his native talent to work (which you'd expect from a shachou), and was directly involved in the stylistic change that occurred in the early 90s.

[Eduardo]

If I remember correctly, didn't Dave Meltzer also mention this about Baba? I forgot the details or the circumstances of why Meltzer was talking about this, but he mentioned once in the Observer that Baba had a lot of say on the details that went on in the ring. I wish I still had my old Observers somewhere, maybe someone on here will remember exactly what Meltzer said.

[ohtani's jacket]

I have a hard time believing Baba took a hands-off approach simply because Japan doesn't work that way. Baba was too much of a shachou in all other respects to not have a major hand in what was happening in the ring. Not only that, but if you give workers too much "leash," so to speak, you're more likely to see a spotfest than an All Japan match.

[Loss]

I'm surprised that anyone wouldn't think Baba was hands on. I always thought that was common knowledge.

[Bix]

What the hell is a shachou?

[Ditch]

The boss. Specifically, when there's one person who is without question in charge of a promotion. Granted that's not really something unusual for pro wrestling, but right now there isn't a 'boss' of New Japan or NOAH, there isn't really one in TNA, etc.

[ohtani's jacket]

Shachou means company president, but it loses something in translation. If you hear Jumbo or someone talk about Baba they will address him as shachou similar to how a teacher or doctor is always called sensei or an athlete senshu.