AWA Thread

[Dylan Waco]

They have two matches from the showboat that I know of. I liked one a lot, loved the other, and can't see any argument for them being anything less than very good. The better of the two decimates any WWF Hennig match I've seen by a margin so large it's comical:

 

My review of the "weaker" match.

 

JIP though I don't think much of anything is lost. Hennig is working a headlock as a base early and Hansen is fun trying to roughneck his way out of it. Hansen takes over but Curt gets a near fall on a sunset flip and then fires back with some stiff shots. Hansen takes over with a big kick and gets a near fall off of an elbow drop. Nice suplex near fall from Hansen and they do a great spot with Hansen going for a bulldog, but Curt rams him into the turnbuckles and Hansen stumbles head over heels into a near fall for Curt. Curt tries to go back to a headlock and gets nastily crotched on the top rope. Hansen locks on a stomach claw of all things and then hits an atomic drop. Cool chop exchange but Hansen says "fuck this," takes him down and locks him in the Boston Crab. Hansen drops the hold and then hits a huge back body drop on Hennig. He goes to throw him over the top but Hennig gets tied up n the ropes hand man style where Hansen works on him. Hall hits the ring for the save. Nowhere near as good as the other match of theirs I've seen but still a really good match.

 

My review of the "Holy Shit this was great" match.

 

Hennig hits the ring to save Blackwell and Hansen is still in his gear flying around for Curt. Hansen post Hennig on the floor and then runs over with a chair and beats the fuck out of Blackwell's ankle. Back in the ring and Curt gets in some licks while still selling the posting. Hansen falls to the floor but comes back in and is still getting his ass kicked by Curt. Fun near fall as Curt kicks Stan in the face twice. Hansen comes back with a quick shot and hits an elbow drop for a big nearfall. Curt is really great as he keeps selling his ass off but makes another comeback punching and kicking wildly at Hansen. Hennig takes a wild sternum first bump into the turnbuckles and Hansen start kneeing him in the face. Hansen goes to the outside and starts hammering on Hennig while standing on the apron, but Hennig fires back and Hansen does a great sell job of a turnbuckle shot, then gets slammed and hit with a splash from the second rope for a huge nearfall. Hansen presses Curt through the ropes to the floor when he kicks out and slams his face into the stairs. He then literally slams Curt on the front row of chairs which is just awesome. Back in the ring he reaches through the ropes to throw a cheapshot and Hennig punches Hansen hard as fuck, then drags him to the floor and gives him the double boot eye rake on the floor which is awesome. Back in the ring Hansen hits a belly to back suplex almost out of desperation for a nearfall. Great camera shot of Hansen hear clutching at his jaw and trying to work out the kinks of the Hennig punches. He stands up and hits a piledriver but Curt's leg was on the bottom rope so the fall gets broken up. He goes for a second piledriver in the middle of the ring but Curt does this incredibly great delayed, slow motion, back body drop that makes the impact look especially brutal. Hennig is leaned over and Hansen follows behind but gets caught with a wild mule kick by Hennig for a nearfall. Hennig then his a fucking monkey flip of all things for a nearfall. They are on their knees trading desperation blows and Hansen kicks Curt in the face. Curt ends up going for another monkey flip, but Hansen pushes him off. Hansen misses an elbow and Curt rolls him up for a nearfall but they are in the ropes. Cool spot as Hansen desperately clutches the ropes to avoid an Irish whip, but Hennig gets it and hits a dropkick for a great nearfall. Great out of nowhere nearfall off a cross body from Hennig. Hennig hits a desperation belly to back with both men out. They get to their feet and Hennig hits a kneelift and a forward roll for a two count as time expires. Great, great match, despite the telegraphed time limit finish. Possibly the best thing I've watched so far as this started as a fight and never really slowed down.

[Frankensteiner]

It's the "weaker" match except it's from Oshkosh, WI and not the Showboat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7BwgiyxpoY

 

It's only 10 minutes so anyone give it a watch without too much of a time investment.

[Dylan Waco]

Not sure why I was thinking that was from the Showboat too.

 

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the other match. If you watch the Blackwell angle before it it gives the match a bit of context.

[Frankensteiner]

Curt Hennig vs. Stan Hansen, Las Vegas, 3/11/86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWQ_J5AQiWo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=a4zg0kDW0TA

 

Yeah, this is it right here. What a war! I didn’t think there was single wasted second in this; just a tremendous match with a number of nice touches. I loved Hansen going back for another piece of Blackwell after knocking Hennig into the ringpost on the outside. Hansen also hits a brutal knee drop onto Hennig’s face. Then there’s Stan’s headbuts to break up a pin cover. Even Curt’s mule kick out of the corner which hit kind of sloppily was a cool looking spot. Match reminded me of a sped up version of Santana/Valentine. I probably liked Martel’s top 3-4 matches better than this but that shouldn’t take away from Curt/Hansen. I don’t know where I would rate this with Hennig’s WWF performances but he certainly looked more ready to fight here than he did through the majority of his WWF career.

 

Do you think this is the best Hennig AWA match?

[Dylan Waco]

Hennig has a lot of good AWA matches. Not sure if this is better than the best of the Bock matches. I probably like it better than the best Lawler matches but I can see an argument for Lawler matches. There is a Gagne match that is on or near the same level. There is also a Wahoo match that should at least be in the discussion.

[Frankensteiner]

Curt Hennig vs. Wahoo McDaniel, Las Vegas, 1987

Curt Hennig vs. Wahoo McDaniel (Strap Match), Las Vegas, 1987

Curt Hennig vs. Wahoo McDaniel, Las Vegas, 11/16/87

 

The first match in the series was a decent enough opener. But looking at it as a standalone match, it took too long to get going for such a short affair. It felt like there were too many restarts in the action. They did finally open up on each other with some earth shattering chops. Unfortunately the match ended not soon after with Henning nailing Wahoo with a foreign object and getting the pin. Larry Zbyszko was fairly entertaining on commentary throughout.

 

The strap match was good. They definitely deliver what you would want to see out of a strap match between these two. Some chop exchanges, some strap shots, some Hennig bumps, and some blood. Finish with Adonis coming out and cutting the strap was kind of interesting for a screwjob ending. I wouldn’t say it was a great match but it lived up to my expectations and was pretty fun as a result.

 

The third match again took a while to get going but got pretty good once Hennig busted Wahoo open on the outside. There was a definite uptick in intensity with that moment. Hennig attacking the cut with rapid fire lefts and rights as well as a knee was a highlight. Curt also kept taking this wild bump off some of Wahoo’s chops that almost looked he was doing Olympic high jumping. Another moment I enjoyed was them trading some brutal overhead chops on the outside prior to the finish. Match ended on a double-count out. I want to say they have another match (they have to, right?) with Madusa in Hennig’s corner but I haven’t been able to find it.

 

From what I’ve seen, this was a good series overall. I wouldn’t call any of the matches particularly great but all of them were at least enjoyable. If nothing else, it’s a good comparison to Flair’s matches with Wahoo.

[Frankensteiner]

Rick Martel vs. Nick Bockwinkel, Meadowlands, 6/22/85 (?)

A match aired on World Pro in Japan. They have their usual good match. I think it’s a slight downgrade from the first couple of matches in the Winnipeg series, but in my eyes those are going to be tough to top. Obviously they repeat some spots and sequences from the previous matches which makes it a little less exciting if you watch them in order. But technically this is still a very good and physical match. I loved how Bockwinkel was going after Martel when Martel was in the ropes. Bockwinkel was also doing the king of the mountain stuff (he did this in the last Winnipeg match) only for a great Martel answer from the outside. One problem here is that it looks as if World Pro was again very liberal with their editing. My version runs only about 11 minutes which is shorther than what was shown from Winnipeg, thus giving those matches an advantage. The date is only a guess, as going by the finish, I’m assuming this lead to a rematch the next month. I don’t understand how Martel was declared the winner here.

 

I’m trying to compare this Martel run to Tito’s WWF run in the same time frame. Can’t decide which one I like better.

[Log]

Speaking of Tito...I noticed he did some stuff in early-80's AWA. Any of it look like it could make the set?

[Frankensteiner]

There are only a handful of Tito AWA matches which are available on tape. I think about 9 or 10 at the most. I'm not working on the set but in my opinion I would say at least 3 or 4 of those (2 matches vs. Bockwinkel, vs. Robinson, and w/Martel vs. High Flyers) should be on the set.

[Dylan Waco]

Problem with the Robinson match is that it's only about a half a match. What's shown is great, but it's really incomplete. I will fight for it as an extra, but as a match proper it's going to be tough going. The one High Flyers v. Strike Force tag I've seen is similar in that regard.

[khawk20]

There are only a handful of Tito AWA matches which are available on tape. I think about 9 or 10 at the most. I'm not working on the set but in my opinion I would say at least 3 or 4 of those (2 matches vs. Bockwinkel, vs. Robinson, and w/Martel vs. High Flyers) should be on the set.

Save for a possible TV squash or two, I think this is everything available on tape from Tito in the AWA. Listings are from my AWA Tito Comp I did a few years back:

 

2) The Tito Santana-Sheik Kaissie TV Sword Angle. **NOTE: I edited the version from an AWA PPV (in EX quality) with a regular TV version (not so great quality) to show as much of this as possible. Santana was Kaissie’s first target upon Sheik’s entrance into the AWA. (2:25, F/EX-)

3) Tito Santana vs. Sheik Adnan El-Kaissie (5/14/81, Winnipeg). Complete match in wake of the Sword Angle. (13:40, VG)

4) Nick Bockwinkel (AWA Champion) vs. Tito Santana (5/13/82, Winnipeg, JIP around the 7 minute mark ). Santana challenges for the title in a really fun bout. (19:13, VG)

5) Tito Santana vs. Nick Bockwinkel (Minneapolis 3/1/81, JIP.) A “Top Contender” bout from Minneapolis. Verne Gagne was Champ at this time. (8:45, VG+)

6) A Tito Santana interview after a title challenge in Milwaukee (August 1981). Tito vows revenge against any and all members of the Heenan family in the wake of a loss to Nick Bockwinkel. (1:20, VG-)

7) Tito Santana vs. Bobby Duncum (3/25/82, Winnipeg, JIP). Tito taking on the Heenan family. (6:41, VG-/VG **some picture flash**)

8) Tito Santana vs. Ken Patera (11/5/81, Winnipeg, JIP). Another one vs. the Heenan family. (8:47, VG-/VG)

9) After the above bout, Tito attacks and Piledrives Bobby Heenan before Patera can save him. (1:05, VG+)

10) Tito Santana vs. Billy Robinson (9/24/81,Winnipeg, JIP). A good scientific bout with tempers a touch on edge. (10:55, VG+/EX-)

11) Greg Gagne/Jim Brunzell (AWA Tag Champs) vs. Tito Santana/Rick Martel (St. Paul, July 18 1982, JIP). We get 5 tremendous minutes of a 30 minute match. Great action! (5:10, VG/VG+)

12) Greg Gagne/Jim Brunzell (AWA Tag Champs) vs. Tito Santana/Rick Martel (St. Paul, August 29, 1982, JIP). The rematch is another stellar bout. (15:20, VG/VG+)

 

BONUS BOUTS

**I’ve included these bouts at the end of the DVD because they deserve to be here, but the VQ isn’t very good.

 

a) Tito Santana vs. Sheik Kaissie (Minneapolis, 5/10/81). Short match, very similar to the Winnipeg bout except the beginning of the bout is done opposite of Winnipeg. They probably switched things up every other night as the match went town to town.) 5:11, F/G

Tito Santana/Buck Zumhofe vs. Ken Patera/Bobby Duncum (AWA TV, 1982). Tito and Buck sign an open contact to get the bout on TV. Another great “broken boom-box” moment for Buck, and a big Hulk Hogan save at the end. 8:00, G/VG-

c) Tito Santana vs. Jerry Blackwell (Winnipeg 12/11/80, JIP). Good bout. Some tremendous agility shown by Blackwell in a few spots. (12:17, F/VG-)

[Dylan Waco]

I just watched that second High Flyers v. Tito/Martel match and it is "Holy Shit" Great. Please God tell me that was at least half the match khawk. I want that on the AWA Set as a match proper and not an EXTRA. Fucking High Flyers are crazy underrated

[Loss]

I think that match was something like 8 minutes of a 30 minute draw, and yes, it's outstanding.

[Dylan Waco]

The one I'm talking about has the Flyers go over clean after a blindside tag from Greg to Brunzell. Greg takes the bump on the atomic drop and Tito turns into what is possibly the most vicious dropkick I've ever seen for the fall.

[khawk20]

I just watched that second High Flyers v. Tito/Martel match and it is "Holy Shit" Great. Please God tell me that was at least half the match khawk. I want that on the AWA Set as a match proper and not an EXTRA. Fucking High Flyers are crazy underrated

One fo my all time favourite matches, and I would say there's about 5 minutes missing off the front.

 

I'd love to see the other bout in full someday, the end run from it is fantastic.

[Frankensteiner]

Yeah, I was talking about the second Tito/Martel v. Flyers tag. The first should be an extra though. Also, I guess after looking at my notes (and what Khawk posted) one of those Tito/Bock matches only has like 7-8 minutes shown so it probably shouldn't make the set.

 

That Tito/Blackwell match looks interesting. I'm going to have to get that one from khawk.

[vikingsfan73]

The one I'm talking about has the Flyers go over clean after a blindside tag from Greg to Brunzell. Greg takes the bump on the atomic drop and Tito turns into what is possibly the most vicious dropkick I've ever seen for the fall.

That dropkick is brutal. I love that match.

[Frankensteiner]

Rick Martel vs. Jimmy Garvin, Las Vegas, 1/17/85

I’ve sort of been putting off watching this feud because I wanted to collect the matches in some semblance of order and because I’m not very high on Garvin in general. This took place on Pro Wrestling USA TV and was a good, short heatup match for their feud. Martel got the crowd fired up early working Garvin over and Garvin was pretty good bumping around him. It’s kind of jarring watching Garvin in the context of these AWA matches as he’s so much more theatrical than any of Martel’s other challengers. It seemed there was a jump cut to Martel attempting to escape a Garvin chinlock, which after watching the next match, I wasn’t really disappointed in missing. Garvin got the pin by hitting Martel with the knux but the decision was quickly reversed. Why did they run this finish on their TV after doing it around the arenas the previous month?

 

Rick Martel vs. Jimmy Garvin, Winnipeg, 2/7/85

Looking over clawmaster’s list, I don’t think he listed results for this match. It took place in Winnipeg but it’s not the 12/84 match because that ended on the reverse decision, and it’s not the 3/7/85 match which had Von Rashke in drag in Martel’s corner. So I’m assuming that 2/7/85 has to be the date since this was a bridge in the feud. This was an OK match but I wouldn’t consider it one of Martel’s best from this time period. Because they worked it for the arena the pace was slower than for the prior TV match. On that note, they also worked what seemed like a 6 minute chinlock spot for Garvin’s control segment. They did try to work some escape attempts but it felt like they were basically wasting time and it wasn’t very interesting. Garvin didn’t really bring much here to make me change my opinion of him as a worker. Martel was DQed for throwing Garvin over the top rope after Garvin had done the same to Martel earlier in the match. This didn’t add much to their series.

[Dylan Waco]

Bumping this because I was talking to Bix about this yesterday and with the talk about Slaughter I thought this might be an interesting topic for discussion.

 

One popular talking point that the WWE and others have run with throughout the years is that the loss of Hogan killed the AWA dead. I think if you look at the data pulled together by Kris in his thread on the WWE expansion and combine it with the data I pulled together in the Blackwell and Patera threads it is obvious that isn't true. While it would be a stretch to say the loss of Hogan was irrelevant, the fact is the AWA was still making money long after Hogan departed. While the slump in the middle of 84 was bad, it also just happened to coincide with the companies hottest act Jerry Blackwell going out with an "injury" angle after being turned face in a huge battle royal that sold out St. Paul. When Blackwell returned attendance started to creep back up and by years end they were able to draw 16k in St. Paul - damn near a sellout - for Blackwell/Bundy v. The Roadies. In fact 84 probably had as many or more 10k pus shows as any year in AWA history and though the war was in full swing and taking it's toll in 85 they drew far better than some people would have you believe.

 

I think the AWA would have died due to Vince's expansion no matter what, but in looking at the twists and turns of the company it is clear Verne aided and abetted it with a variety of shit promoting and booking decisions. In March of 85 - when the company was still relatively strong with consistently good figures coming out of the majority of loop towns (including red hot SLC, Winnipeg holding strong and 10k plus figures more often than not in St. Paul/Chicago) Verne decides to expand to other areas. This expansion would be sort of bizarre as he appears to have tried to open a Western flank and an Eastern flank. The Eastern flank is semi-understandable - they were trying to build off of the PWUSA tv. There first solo foray into the Meadowlands did 10k which is not bad at all and they also managed to do a really strong number in New Haven CT around this time. I still think this was unwise as they were under full frontal assault on their home front and yet had shown they could survive if they devoted their energy and resources. Taking the war to Vince made no sense as a survival strategy, especially since they had been able to maintain a large portion of their fanbase in the key loop towns, despite some setbacks. Still at least the East swing had some logical foundation.

 

The West swing just seems delusional for a variety of reasons, the most obvious of which is that the expansion would take them AWAY from the area where they had a historical base on their loop. The AWA had run Denver, SLC, Vegas and San Fran for years by this point. Of those towns San Fran was by far the weakest town, though they actually had some relatively solid numbers from the late 84/early 85 period. They ran one or two shows in LA which would have at least been a logical spot based on the existing Vegas/San Fran connection (though that is a really large area of territory). But the primary Western expansion was an attempt to pull into Vancouver, BC and Alaska. No attempt to run established wrestling areas in Oregon (still under Owen's domain, but clearly trending down as this was right around the time Buddy was finishing up) or even smaller spot shows along the way to build up a loop heading in that direction. Instead the guys were abandoning the profitable towns to run places like Anchorage where 2k plus was impressive but had to have been a net money loser.

 

Even worse than this both of these expansions diluted the talent at a point where they really needed the talent concentrated in the core areas. The AWA was low on stars, but they still had names that were loyal and could draw as a package. Adnan, Sarge, Blackwell, Bockwinkel, Martel (in Canada mainly but still), The High Flyers, and The Roadies all had the ability and track record to draw - in the AWA towns. Of those only the Roadies and possibly Martel were likely to leave Verne in the immediate. By running split crews to open up new towns far from the AWA loop/base Verne was essentially helping to kill the power centers he had.

 

On top of this there were some awful decisions made post-StarCage in late April of 85. That event had drawn 12-13k to the Civic Center, a number that may have been mildly disappointing due to the depth of the card, but a number that was absolutely within the realm of "good" for the Twin Cities (by comparison the first AWA card without Hogan there in Nov of 83 - when in fact I believe Hulk had been advertised - drew roughly the same number and was rightfully considered a success). In the immediate aftermath they ran a string of successful shows built around a variety of Cage matches, including one headlined by the High Flyers that drew very well in Winnipeg and a swing into San Fran and SLC that did huge numbers for those towns (actually SLC did something like 10,500 which was fucking massive and one of the biggest numbers I've ever seen from the AWA in a town that was traditionally very hot for them) built around Slaughter/Hennigs v. Roadies/Ellering and Adnan v. Blackwell double main events. You could argue that this was hot shotting that would burn out the town on gimmicks and I have no doubt that hurt. But what hurt more was taking Blackwell and the Roadies off the loop immediately after this run.

 

To be fair to Verne he may not have had a choice. Blackwell may have had medical issues and the Roadies may have had bookings elsewhere. Whatever the case may be, it was at this point that business clearly took the turn into "bad." SLC and Winnipeg had been their most consistent and reliable towns (not highest drawing due to Chicago and the Twin Cities being bigger venues) - they immediately shit the bed. St. Paul plummeted to a record low of less than 2k and the Rosemount pulled in only 4k. The Freebirds were on or near the top of a lot of these shows and it clear they didn't mean a god damn thing to the AWA audience.

 

The AWA doesn't draw another card of note til early August when they run a gimmick main event in SLC with Slaughter/Gagne v. Larry Z/Bock that does almost 8k. Just as Sarge appears to be putting a little bit of momentum together as a main eventer, they go on a four day Alaska swing before flipping the crew and shipping them out to Boston days later. Blackwell returns in late August and the Roadies are still gone.

 

The AWA has one last huge blowout with SuperClash in Sept. drawing 20k in Chicago. Largely forgotten is that the next night they did 2k on home soil in St. Paul on a show that saw an absolutely abysmal use of all of their top names.

 

With The Roadies, Sarge and Blackwell they had a reasonably strong run through Nov and while the figures were disappointing in Dec they were not at the level of "holy fuck this is terrible" they had been absent those guys a few months early. The first major show of 86 at the Rosemont does 13k for a big double main event with Blackwell/Roadies v. Birds and Sarge v. Hansen for the AWA title. Of course they had Wrestlerock which did okay later in the year, a massive super show that did great in SLC further down the road and a couple of strong figures for rare Blackwell title matches v. Hansen. Other than that the AWA was basically dead in 86.

 

This is kind of rambling at this point but the point I'm getting at is that the booking and promoting errors of Verne hurt him at least as much as the same errors hurt Crockett in their war with Vince. If Verne doesn't try to expand, doesn't run split crews, manages to keep Blackwell, The Roadies and Sarge (who's dates were also scaled back some) booked, and made stronger use of the talent he had (perhaps a Sarge v. Blackwell feud for example) he could have been running successfully along his regular loop for far longer.

[khawk20]

It might be easier to make the comparison in terms of pro sports franchises. Take a small-market contender in, say, MLB, a team always in contention for a playoff spot, sometimes getting in, but always drawing well and keeping fan interest.

 

Said team makes two or three off-season acquisitions designed to continue the momentum that the team has built over the years, and possibly push them over the top.

 

None of those pickups work out...they hit a little, field a little, but perform average compared to what they are supposed to do. Team chemistry goes down the toilet, and suddenly the team is near the bottom of the standings. The fans stop coming out, and a team that once contended is now a cellar-dweller.

 

They can't attract good players because they are limited in their spending ability, partially because they are drawing so poorly since the team started to suck. Mid-range and past-their-prime guys are brought in but given too much of a load to carry. Result: The team stays in the same place. Next year, wash, rinse, repeat...the vicious circle has begun.

 

Eventually nobody remembers that this team used to be good...all they can see is the current failures.

 

This is how I saw the AWA from 1985-onward, except personnel moves were only part of the problem. Where he tried to fight his battles (as noted by Dylan) was almost a bigger part of the problem. To baseball it up again, he spent so much time trying to win games against the American League that he could no longer beat anyone in the National League, especially at home. And if you can't win at home...

[Dylan Waco]

I think that's a really good comparison actually and not one I had ever thought of.

 

What really amazes me is how poorly Blackwell, Sarge and The Roadies were used for most of 85. None of those guys could take down Vince, but that is a solid base, especially when coupled with the other names I already mentioned. Even in 86 when they booked Blackwell v. Hansen it popped attendance in a huge way in SLC and was solid enough to main event Denver twice. There was a lot more to work with and a lot more momentum than that in 85.

 

I like Martel and think he worked hard as a champion, but it seems to me that they should have taken the title off of him sooner and perhaps tried to build a real feud around that belt. Not sure how much it would have mattered, but you could see Sarge or Blackwell as champion drawing in a heated feud or two even against lesser talents. I would guess that Blackwell or Sarge v. Bock could have done very well and it may have been easier to integrate guys like Larry Z into the main event scene in that scenario as well.

 

It's not really knock on Martel and I think he's sort of been given a bad rap for booking and promoting decisions made by Verne. Still you would think they could have done something more with the talented roster they did have which honestly is nowhere near as bad as you would expect for a territory that had just been raided

[PeteF3]

Verne Gagne = Billy Beane? They've both had movies made about them, too.

 

Martel's innate Frenchiness may well have prevented him from ever being a truly top-tier draw in the U.S. when Verne needed a champ on Slaughter or Blackwell's level. That said, it's hard to get a babyface World Champion to draw when he can't seem to beat anybody. Other than the return bout with Jumbo in St. Paul (?) and the blowoff bouts with Zhukov, it seems every Martel defense ends with him getting pinned and the new heel champion getting screwed out of the belt--in my mind, just as backwards as the common WWF complaint where the heel is often in control ready to make the pin when the bell rings for a draw. With whom are the fans' sympathies supposed to lie in these situations?

 

Like any finish it might be okay in moderation, but it was not only insanely overdone throughout AWA history (I'm guessing much more often than any promotion Dusty booked) but it made Martel look weak--at least to this after-the-fact observer--when he couldn't retain his title over Michael Hayes or Jimmy Garvin without help from Wally Karbo.

[Ricky Jackson]

Verne Gagne = Billy Beane?

If any promoter was Beane it was Heyman.

[PeteF3]

Actually from a geographical and style standpoint, Gagne should be Terry Ryan.

 

Not to derail this from the AWA/wrestling talk but Jerry Jarrett was very Beane-esque as well. ECW took a lot from Memphis so of course that comparison is going to hold up, but I'll concede that Heyman was able to build up a cult following as a "mastermind" that Jarrett really didn't and that would put him closer to Beane's level.

[khawk20]

Like any finish it might be okay in moderation, but it was not only insanely overdone throughout AWA history (I'm guessing much more often than any promotion Dusty booked) but it made Martel look weak--at least to this after-the-fact observer--when he couldn't retain his title over Michael Hayes or Jimmy Garvin without help from Wally Karbo.

I agree but "throughout AWA history" is stretching it. How many babyface singles champs of any length were there, ever? Martel...and Verne Gagne. MAYBE you could count Jerry Lawler but he wasn't an all-the-time face champ by any stretch of it. That's it.

 

I'll give you that it was overdone with Martel (Garvin and Hayes happened almost back-to-back), but he did have some successful AWA title defenses that were "clean wins". Robinson, Saito, Zbyszko, King Tonga and Bockwinkel come to mind that made film.