Wrestling in Japan (Late 90s-Early 00s)

[FLIK]

To me it's just the most amusing example of what a gigantic mega super main stream star he was for time. Once he blew up he got a shit ton of merch deals, tv apperances, movies, his own album, etc....

[Loss]

Bix just explained to me that this was a real single. I was thinking it was the New Japan equivalent of Piledriver or something.

[FLIK]

Nope

 

[anarchistxx]

I was at Summerslam 2005 and about 11% of the audience got up and left after the Eddie v Rey match like it was the Bruno matchat MSG and everything after was the curfew limit match.

This has to be bullshit. I don't buy for a minute that nearly 2,000 people left that show only three matches in, with John Cena, Batista, The Undertaker, Randy Orton and Chris Jericho to come, not to mention the small matter of Hulk Hogan vs Shawn Michaels. Not doubting that Rey/Eddie pushed up the attendance and the buyrate but to say 10% of the crowd walked out after the first hour is ridiculous.

 

Maybe they just went for a piss or a break whilst Eugene vs Angle was on.

 

(cue the reply; "but you once said the HOLOCAUST was bullshit so what do you know?" etc etc etc yawn).

[Loss]

I was expecting their response to be more that they aren't surprised that you would be skeptical that people would leave after watching the Mexicans when there are so many white people left to enjoy.

 

But anyway ...

[kjh]

Meltzer: "But years later, in a similar situation–the first All Japan vs. New Japan singles main event, Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kensuke Sasaki, New Japan put the outsider over. In doing so, they got a sellout the second time as well. But after Sasaki went over in the rematch, Kawada was never anywhere close to the level of a draw for New Japan again."

Kawada was never really put in the position to be a draw at that level for New Japan again. He never headlined another Dome show for the company.

[anarchistxx]

I was expecting their response to be more that they aren't surprised that you would be skeptical that people would leave after watching the Mexicans when there are so many white people left to enjoy.

Mexicans would be considered white in the UK. It is mostly in the USA that they seem to desperately distinguish between caucasian and hispanic. But anyway, as you say. Off for a few months again to escape the impending bullying for things I said as a mere child...

[Ricky Jackson]

I'm just impressed tomk was able to calculate the number of people leaving as exactly 11%, like it was clearly more than 10% but less than 12% based on an eyeball estimate.

[goodhelmet]

Tom K rules.

[rvd356]

Wnvx8ho did Liger face, and what was the date?

Minoru Suzuki, 11-30-02

 

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F

[tomk]

At that point third biggest name in AJ behind Misawa and Kobashi---He was the number 3 guy, that AJ was left with number 3 guy on top doesn't change that the draw was #3 guy v Sasaki. And not sure what you mean by stopped drawing when KAwada started losing. It was a two Dome Show series, unless you are counting the 2005/06 matches as part of same feud. If we are doing that, then Lesnar won all the early matches in the Cena feud years ago.

Meltzer: "But years later, in a similar situation–the first All Japan vs. New Japan singles main event, Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kensuke Sasaki, New Japan put the outsider over. In doing so, they got a sellout the second time as well. But after Sasaki went over in the rematch, Kawada was never anywhere close to the level of a draw for New Japan again."

 

 

They didn’t put Kawada in a position to draw on a dome again for over 4 years. I guess if you’re not used, you aren’t drawing as much. But that seems like a dumb argument.

Also worth pointing out that Meltzer still points to how great a ratings draw the Ogawa v Hash feud was and continued to be, and ignores the whole Russo/Bischoff huge ratings but poor box office nature of it. Honestly around 98 or so Meltzer became very useful if you want to know what sources in the biz thought was wrong in Japan, he was less useful if you wanted actual smart business analysis

 

, I'm a bit confused by your assertion that it took someone as short as Sasaki for Kawada to be a credible opponent. Kawada was perfectly credible against Doc and Vader and Stan Hansen and Gary Albright. Who on the New Japan roster was too big for him to go up against?

 

I like Jerry Lawler v Bam Bam, Bockwinkle and Von Erich too. Still I think part of the dynamic of what makes Lawler v Dundee and Lawler v Dutch work so well is relative size. Part of the dynamic of what made Kawada v Sasaki work (and revitalized Sasaki’s career) is that it was two bulked up Mike Graham sized guys.

 

only show Eddy/Rey main evented was the 6/21 Smackdown taping. Eddy wasn't consistently main eventing until his program with Batista.

 

It was credited with being the draw on most of the shows it was on (less the ones in Europe but definitely in SW). But if you don’t like that example the WWWF/WWF/WWE is filled with match series where heel doesn’t “win” first one. I already used the Patera one, which followed the basic Bruno three match DQ,CO, cage series formula: where first match ends in DQ when Bruno loses his temper and let’s Italian out kicking opponent in nuts and beating heel up, second ends in countout when heel runs away and third ends with face decisive win in cage, texas death, etc. It may not be way other feds did things but WWWF/WWF/WWE made a ton of money using that formula. It’s essentially how the Taker v Austin series is worked as three match series with Austin never getting a win. The 98 King of the Ring Austin v Kane match is the first series where Austin really loses the first match with heel since the start of the Austin v Vince feud. Austin beat Vince and his charges in the first match of every series from Sep Raw where he flipped off Vince through to the June PPV, which is a ten month period that resulted in a ton of money. Wrestlemania 21: Batista beats HHH, Backlash a month later, Batista beats HHH, a month later Vengeance, Batista beats HHH in a cage.

Cena made Lesnar look like an absolute monster in their first match and barely eked out a win, made Lesnar look stronger than Bruno’s opponent looks after getting kicked in the nuts in first match, stronger than Dude Love looked when Austin chairshotted Vince to get DQ in their first match. There was no reason not to run a rematch.

 

Loss says

Here's a list of all the MMA that it sounds like needs to be featured between 1997 and 2003. Is this complete? Should anything be added?

 

What I want to capture is MMA that is important to the story of pro wrestling

This is way too many matches cutting a bunch out

 

1997

Nobuhiko Takada vs Rickson Gracie (PRIDE 10/11/97)

1998

Nobuhiko Takada vs Rickson Gracie (PRIDE 10/11/98)

 

1999

Naoya Ogawa vs Gary Goodridge (PRIDE 07/04/99)

Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royler Gracie (PRIDE 11/21/99)

 

2000

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Mark Kerr (PRIDE 05/01/00)

Kazuyuki Fujita vs Ken Shamrock (PRIDE 08/27/00)

2001

Tadao Yasuda vs Masaaki Satake (PRIDE 03/25/01)

Yoshihiro Takayama vs Kazayuki Fujita (PRIDE 05/27/01)

Yuji Nagata vs Mirko Cro Cop (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01)

Antonio Inoki slaps everyone (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01)

 

2002

Yoshihiro Takayama vs Don Frye (PRIDE 21 06/23/02)

Bob Sapp vs Antonio Nogueira (PRIDE 08/28/02)

 

Not sure how many of the Sak v Gracie matches you need, maybe just one

 

You do need one of the Sak v Silva matches and you need the k1 Nakamura v Ignashov (thats really only Nakamura MMA match you need)

 

You also probably need an Ogawa loss from when Pride stopped including works.

 

I think you maybe should have Enson Inoue v Nog from Pride 19. Inoue was a shoot guy who ended up in NJ and then Choshu promotions Riki Pro and Big Mouth Loud. He was a guy who was pretty open about being friends with the Yakuza which led to endless internet conspiracy posts blaming Yakuza for the booking of mma and new japan.

 

You should probably also include Doc Death Steve Williams v Ignashov, to kind of get sense of how bad Japanese biz was that Williams needed that kind of payday.

 

I’d also include Minoru Suzuki v El Solar from DEEP, and Giant Silva v Akebono K-1 to give a sense of how nutty the Japanese mma world was and how intertwined the pro and shoot world were in Japan.

[FLIK]

He was a guy who was pretty open about being friends with the Yakuza which led to endless internet conspiracy posts blaming Yakuza for the booking of mma and new japan.

Yup, there's a really fascinating hour or so long video interview he does online whear he tells all kinds of Yakuza stories.

[tomk]

I'm just impressed tomk was able to calculate the number of people leaving as exactly 11%, like it was clearly more than 10% but less than 12% based on an eyeball estimate.

I eyeballed it as over 10%.

I know one of the guys who works as Slapshot from highschool and bars around DC, and through him chatted with folks at MCI center after show who estimated it as under 13% left.

So between 10 and 13. I'm choosing to err on the low side.

 

This has to be bullshit. I don't buy for a minute that nearly 2,000 people left that show only three matches in, with John Cena, Batista, The Undertaker, Randy Orton and Chris Jericho to come, not to mention the small matter of Hulk Hogan vs Shawn Michaels. Not doubting that Rey/Eddie pushed up the attendance and the buyrate but to say 10% of the crowd walked out after the first hour is ridiculous.

Yes, it was shocking to me too.

I don't remember if it was 2008 Judgement Day or 2008 One Night Stand, but Meltzer mentioned in one of those how a large enough section of crowd left after JBL v Cena that the wWe had to adjust to hide it on camera. If it's Judgement Day that would be after opener. My sense is it would have to be over 15% for it to be noticeable on camera (although not as familiar with those arenas as I am with MCI center). Summerslam 05 it was way under 15%.

[tomk]

I was expecting their response to be more that they aren't surprised that you would be skeptical that people would leave after watching the Mexicans when there are so many white people left to enjoy.

 

But anyway ...

 

Actually wouldn't have made any crack.

OTOH, reluctantly reading the HHH mediocrity thread ( the last thing I want to do is write about HHH) and

 

Still, I have no problem saying he's not in a top hundred of all time (maybe not even three hundred), even if I think arguing that the likes of Hercules, Barbarian and D'Von Dudley are better is pretty ridiculous

If I wasn't avoiding writing in that thread, I would make the point that a black man won the presidency of the U.S. and most people are less invested in the ridculousness of thinking a white person is inferior to a non-white one and that HHH wears an Iron Cross because he likes heavy metal not the axis powers.

 

and

 

You've clearly not read the DVDVR thread where people try to argue, with all seriousness, that Rosey of Three Minute Warning fame is a better worker than Shawn Michaels.

And I might have pointed that anarchristxxx has asked me not to "persecute" him for being a neo-nazi in 05/06 and I try to respect that but if you don't want to be reminded of your world view in 05/06, it might not be a good idea to keep bringing up threads that you found to be "ridiculous" in 05/06.

 

But I'm not posting in that thread, and I don't think I would have neccesarily mocked anarchristxxx for thinking it was ridiculous that people would leave before Hogan. It was surprising.

[rzombie1988]

Kendo Ka Shin vs Ryan Gracie is a must add to the Puroresu vs MMA list. It may have been the first real win by a pro wrestler even though Kendo won it due to an injury.

[NintendoLogic]

They didn’t put Kawada in a position to draw on a dome again for over 4 years. I guess if you’re not used, you aren’t drawing as much. But that seems like a dumb argument.

Also worth pointing out that Meltzer still points to how great a ratings draw the Ogawa v Hash feud was and continued to be, and ignores the whole Russo/Bischoff huge ratings but poor box office nature of it. Honestly around 98 or so Meltzer became very useful if you want to know what sources in the biz thought was wrong in Japan, he was less useful if you wanted actual smart business analysis

Hash/Ogawa did ratings that were objectively great. Russo may have produced a slight uptick in ratings (though that was probably more due to Nitro going from three hours to two), but they were still nowhere close to parity with the WWF.

 

I like Jerry Lawler v Bam Bam, Bockwinkle and Von Erich too. Still I think part of the dynamic of what makes Lawler v Dundee and Lawler v Dutch work so well is relative size. Part of the dynamic of what made Kawada v Sasaki work (and revitalized Sasaki’s career) is that it was two bulked up Mike Graham sized guys.

That's great and all, but it doesn't answer the question of who in New Japan was so big that it would have undermined the storyline of Kawada as invader. Also, just out of curiosity, how tall do you think Kawada and Sasaki really are?

 

It was credited with being the draw on most of the shows it was on (less the ones in Europe but definitely in SW).

By who?

 

But if you don’t like that example the WWWF/WWF/WWE is filled with match series where heel doesn’t “win” first one. I already used the Patera one, which followed the basic Bruno three match DQ,CO, cage series formula: where first match ends in DQ when Bruno loses his temper and let’s Italian out kicking opponent in nuts and beating heel up, second ends in countout when heel runs away and third ends with face decisive win in cage, texas death, etc. It may not be way other feds did things but WWWF/WWF/WWE made a ton of money using that formula.

Where in the formula does Bruno or Backlund get a pinfall victory in the first match? Other than special cases like the heel getting an automatic rematch after losing the title, the babyface getting the 1-2-3 ends the feud.

 

Cena made Lesnar look like an absolute monster in their first match and barely eked out a win, made Lesnar look stronger than Bruno’s opponent looks after getting kicked in the nuts in first match, stronger than Dude Love looked when Austin chairshotted Vince to get DQ in their first match. There was no reason not to run a rematch.

Why would you? Cena won. There's nothing left to settle.

[tomk]

I'm not really sure if you are disagreeing with me or not at this point.

 

Hash/Ogawa did ratings that were objectively great.

Yes they did great ratings. I said that in first post in this thread. They continued to do great ratings in Zero-One. They also created a ton of water cooler talk. Lots and lots of water cooler talk. People enjoyed watching feud on TV and talking about it around the water cooler.

 

The point Meltzer normally makes is that wrestling is a business and if water cooler talk and ratings don't lead to people paying to see matches, it doesn't matter.

 

Jan 4,1999 Tokyo Dome---Shinya Hashimoto NC Naoya Ogawa (now with one Pride "win") (6:58).Drawing 52,500

October 11, 1999 Tokyo Dome- NWA World Champ Naoya Ogawa (now 2-0 in Pride) TKO Shinya Hashimoto (13:10). Drawing 48,000

April 7, 2000 Tokyo Dome---Naoya Ogawa (now 3-0 in Pride) KO Shinya Hashimoto (15:09). Drawing a heavily papered 40,000

When the blow off to the "hot ratings feud" draws over ten thousand fewer people than the first match, the problem isn't just the dumb finish to the blow off.

 

Things that generated less water cooler talk and less ratings but more people actually paid to see than paid for the second match let alone the final blow off of Ogawa v Hashimoto:

 

#3 guy in All-Japan vs. a guy who wasn't considered a good NJ dome draw

 

October 9, 2000 Tokyo Dome-Kawada v Sasaki drawing 54,000

 

January 4, 2001 Tokyo Dome-Kawada v Sasaki drawing 52,000

A guy who had just been knocked out in 30 seconds v Jun Akiyama at a point where NJ was a complete wreck:

 

January 4, 2002 Tokyo Dome- Akiyama v Nagata drawing 52,000

There's also the 30th anniversary show as well as the 03 Nagata v Takayama Dome show.

 

But yeah, Hashimoto v Ogawa drew a lot of ratings and water cooler talk.

 

There's nothing left to settle

Yes, smarks have been saying this about the WWWF/WWF/WWE formula for five decades. If the face beats up the heel in the first match and beats him up in the second, what is left to settle? Why would anyone go to blow-off, what is it blowing off? May not make sense to smarks but it is a formula that has consistently made money.

 

Cena hit Lesnar with stairs, Lesnar is a "real athlete" who could easily claim "bullshit, I can take you apart with my bare hands, you needed to hide behind bullshit props and weapons". Does it make sense? Yes, but who cares if it does or doesn't when what matters is that it consistently makes money.

[NintendoLogic]

We're in agreement about Hash/Ogawa being a disaster, so let's move on.

 

Yes, smarks have been saying this about the WWWF/WWF/WWE formula for five decades. If the face beats up the heel in the first match and beats him up in the second, what is left to settle? Why would anyone go to blow-off, what is it blowing off? May not make sense to smarks but it is a formula that has consistently made money.

That's not how the formula works. Look at your own post about the Bruno/Backlund formula. The first match ends with the babyface getting DQed after losing his temper or the match getting stopped due to blood loss or some other schmoz. The babyface doesn't get a decisive win until the blowoff.

 

Cena hit Lesnar with stairs, Lesnar is a "real athlete" who could easily claim "bullshit, I can take you apart with my bare hands, you needed to hide behind bullshit props and weapons". Does it make sense? Yes, but who cares if it does or doesn't when what matters is that it consistently makes money.

If it were a standard match and Cena had to resort to hitting Lesnar with a chain while the ref was down, that might work. But it was a no-DQ match. Within the context of the stipulation, Cena's win was perfectly clean.

[tomk]

 

 

We're in agreement about Hash/Ogawa being a disaster, so let's move on.

Yes everyone is in agreement on Hash/Ogawa being disaster.

 

But there is a major disagreement over why it was a disaster.

 

Some people claim that this was a hot angle where the finish to the blow off match (Inoki supposedly changing finish) was the disaster.

 

Other people point out that despite the water cooler conversations and the ratings (and yeah it was entertaining to watch stuff on videos from local Japanese video stores) the actual attendance demonstrates that the problems came long before the blow off.

 

Major disagreement.

I mean we also both agree that the Lesnar v Cena feud was blown.

You think the finish for the first match blew it, I think that them not running a rematch was blowing it.

 

Other than these disagreements we are completely on the same page. Yipee!

 

That's not how the formula works.

It's 2013, was 2012 you try to work the same formula with a crowd that is more hostile to DQs.

This thread is really odd in that I feel like I'm talking past you as I point to numbers and examples and don't know if your following at all. I get that you've read a bunch about WWF and 902 NJ but don't know how much you've actually seen. And maybe we need to get certain basic stuff out of the way for this thread to be in any way productive.

 

1) This is Hector Garza v Scott Hall from WCW. I wish I could find their match against each other from TNA online as well.

 

 

Hector Garza wins this match. No one was interested in the rematch. If match was worked the same way, except with Scott Hall taking the win...would the audience have been more excited for a rematch?

 

2) This is Snowden article on Belator:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1488456...mebody-like-ufc

 

Bjorn Rebney says "It's the cornerstone of what makes us different," Rebney told Bleacher Report. "We follow a real sport format like what we're watching right now in the NFL playoffs. You've got to earn it. You have to go through the toughest tournament in sports and if you can win three fights in sequence, you can earn your shot at the world title. It's about real sports sequencing. It's about tournament brackets. It's about going from the quarterfinals to the semifinals to the finals.

 

"There's never been a disconnect in my mind than when watching combat sports and seeing guys able to talk themselves into title fights. Or putting a guy in a world title fight because you think you have a greater ability to sell him to consumers. I've always felt the best fighter should earn his way to a title shot. It should be about winning, not how good your hair looks or how well you talk. It should be about the competition. And at the core that's who we are."

 

Rebney is trying to talk about the difference between the way Bellator is booked and the way wrestling UFC, and boxing are booked.

 

Is he wrong about wrestling? Did Lesnar earn his first match with Cena through going through a ladder of opponents or by attacking him and talking way into match?

 

Was there a point where Vince Mcmahon went title shots, rematches card booking "should be about winning, not how good your hair looks or how well you talk. It should be about the competition"?

[rvd356]

I think the 60 minute broadways, while problematic in quality terms, didn't hurt. Instead they served to make the reign more epic and distinguish it from the standard Hashimoto-era 15-20 minute title matches. Also, Barnett was a strong challenger in the context of NJ vs MMA, and Nishimura was an upper-midcarder booked to get a title shot at a mid-size venue.

 

What hurt the reign was the number of stars who left in the previous 5 years: Hashimoto, Mutoh, Kojima, Tenryu (who was around off-and-on through the '90s), Yamazaki. The main roster was weaker. Maybe they could have had Tenzan challenge, but it's not like NJ's roster was full of star power that didn't challenge Nagata. Other than getting a defense against someone from AJ or NOAH, I'm not sure what more NJ could have done with Nagata's reign.

 

For reference, the 2002 G-1: http://www.purolove.com/njpw/history/g1climax02.php

 

Tanahashi, Yoshie and Kenzo Suzuki were in no position to challenge. Koshinaka had no steam. Nagata defended against the rest except Tenzan.

 

Also its a little rub just to take on 'the best'.

Ummmm... no.

 

Well what was the point of the Cro Cop fight? Surely no one thought he had a chance to win the thing. Wasn't the idea just to give him some cred as a tough guy? I'm guessing someone thought he might score a takedown atleast.