HOF nonsense thread

[JerryvonKramer]

What's the argument against Sting?

 

Seems ridiculous to me that anyone would put Cena in there before him.

[Dylan Waco]

Cena has been the face of a financially viable and successful wrestling promotion for eight years. The only time Sting was the face of a company it did shit business. I like Sting, but I think his biggest plus was the year he was in the rafters not wrestling and the payoff there was so horribly fucked it's not a major plus. Cena was a much more effective ace, headliner and draw and remains so.

 

I also think Cena is a better worker

[JerryvonKramer]

Wasn't Sting effectively the face of WCW from about 1990 onwards? Sure, they didn't do fantastic business in those years, but he was always crazy over, always and had a ton of great matches against a variety of different guys.

 

Considering Steve Williams, Konnan and Benoit are all in the HoF, I can't see any argument that says they should be in and Sting shouldn't.

[Dylan Waco]

If you play the "is he better than shittiest guy in the Hall" Sting gets in. So does Col. Debeers in my opinion, but sure under that metric Sting gets in.

 

Sting is worthy of the ballot and worthy of discussion because of his stardom.

 

But Sting really bombed as company ace and bombed badly. It's certainly arguable that Luger is a better candidate than Sting in a lot of ways and most scoff at the notion that Luger should even be considered.

 

Sting was definitely over and had some quality matches against a variety of guys but that's something that could be said of a ton of guys.

[JerryvonKramer]

Which years are you talking about specifically? I mean when was Sting company ace? 1991-3?

[Dylan Waco]

I think 91-93 is a perfectly acceptable time frame for Sting as ace. I'd have to go back and look for more specific concrete dates and I suspect it would go back some into 1990 and maybe a bit forward into 94 (though I'm not sure). But the point stands that he was not an effect ace at all. And that's really a generous way of putting it

[Loss]

1991 - 1993 were terrible, terrible years for WCW.

 

Really, I love WCW, but there is no one in the Hall of Fame exclusively based on the strength of what they accomplished in WCW. And I think that's probably for the best.

[kjh]

Sting's WCW run as babyface ace was really from Great American Bash '90 till Hulk Hogan turned up in '94. Though even before Hogan showed up they tried to replace him with Ron Simmons and Davey Boy Smith, and Ric Flair was around too towards the end of that period.

[Al]

Could you make the argument that being a poor drawing national promotion is a bigger deal than being a relatively successful regional promotion?

 

I go back and forth on Sting but my main pro-Sting argument is that comparing him to HHH, Sting was clearly better in most facets.

 

The clear HOFers on the modern ballot in my view are Cena and the Rock 'n' Roll Express. I respect the effort for Buddy Rose but I don't see him as a Hall of Famer. But he was very, very good.

[Loss]

The company was in the red every single year during that time period too. I don't blame Sting for all of WCW's problems (probably not any of WCW's problems) during that time, but the Hall of Fame is not a place to right wrongs and vote on what might have been had he been used properly.

[JerryvonKramer]

Seems harsh to pin that failure on Sting though. Look at all the management issues at that time -- Kip Allen Frey, Watts, then Bischoff with Dusty and then Flair constant backstage movers.

 

Watts did a lot of things to hurt Sting as "the ace" in the first 6 months. Putting the title on Ron Simmons, jobbing Sting out clean to Vader, doing weird stuff like putting Williams and Gordy in the main event and burying the world title match somewhere in the midcard.

 

In any case, I've always argued this: did anyone EXPECT any Southern wrestling promotion at that time to do more than 8,000 at The Omni? Had the NWA EVER really had bigger crowds than that?

 

I don't think you can blame Sting for forces beyond his control, like the fact that the WWF did marketing and promotion 1000s of times better than WCW.

 

And it's not like Hogan coming in significantly improved performance in 1994.

[Loss]

Could you make the argument that being a poor drawing national promotion is a bigger deal than being a relatively successful regional promotion?

No. TNA vs 1970s Florida.

[Matt D]

It's not about pinning the failure on Sting.

 

It's just about not rewarding him for it.

[Loss]

In any case, I've always argued this: did anyone EXPECT any Southern wrestling promotion at that time to do more than 8,000 at The Omni? Had the NWA EVER really had bigger crowds than that?

Jim Crockett Promotions sold more live event tickets in 1986 than WWE in 2009. Different time periods, and other things to consider, but the answer to your question is a solid yes.

[JerryvonKramer]

I should elaborate on what I just said a bit.

 

My theory is that wrestling AS WRESTLING had a certain fanbase of a limited size in the 80s down south. The NWA catered for those fans and WCW until 94 and the Disney bullshit continued catering for those fans. THAT demographic gave you crowds of 5,000-8,000 for a PPV event, 10,000 max. These were the rasslin fans.

 

The WWF had a different audience: kids.

 

My point is that no one in a million years would expect Flair vs. Steamboat to draw 50,000+ gates. There aren't that many people into wrestling. Hogan vs. Andre is a spectacle, a cartoon, something else.

 

Point is: can you really fairly compare NWA guys with WWF guys in that period? You could have taken exactly the same two guys and the same match and you know WWF would be getting a much bigger crowd, just because of its audience.

[Loss]

Yes, you can compare them. Are you aware that during the summer of 1987, the NWA was outdrawing the WWF on house shows based on the strength of the War Games gimmick, to a point where everyone in the company thought they had turned a corner? The death of JCP had a lot of factors, but not enough people liking wrestling or being willing to support a good presentation was not one of them.

[Dylan Waco]

You don't put all the blame on Sting, you just don't reward him for a fantasy World that doesn't exist.

 

Conversely with Buddy I think it's hard for people to grasp that Portland was a financially viable and successful territory because they weren't running huge buildings and weren't in a big market. If Don Owen was a shittier business man and didn't take advantage of the fact that he owned his own building and could make a huge profit off of everything there and instead averaged 5k a week at a bigger arena that wasn't a converted bowling alley...well if that was the case and Rose had been his ace for almost ten years during that run I think the consensus would at minimum be "Buddy is a very interesting candidate." Instead the consensus is "Buddy was a big fish in a small pond" or some variant thereof. Buddy is also a victim of Portland not being a heavily tape traded territory so while Buddy has a rep most of the people who pushed that rep only saw a fraction of his career and aren't going to go back and watch it now.

 

I actually think the idea that a poor national draw is more important than a successful regional draw is the crux of the argument against guys like Buddy and I wish people would just state it outright. I suspect they don't because it is such an obviously shitty argument. I mean you can certainly argue against regional draws, but the idea that it meant more to be a money loser than a money maker strikes me as insane in every respect.

[JerryvonKramer]

Can you give me some figures here? What were the biggest houses they were doing?

 

I also think Dusty is in your "something else" category. He was probably drawing in non-wrestling fans.

[Matt D]

Yes, you can compare them. Are you aware that during the summer of 1987, the NWA was outdrawing the WWF on house shows based on the strength of the War Games gimmick, to a point where everyone in the company thought they had turned a corner? The death of JCP had a lot of factors, but not enough people liking wrestling or being willing to support a good presentation was not one of them.

Really, hadn't they turned a corner? Wasn't it just bad business decisions, a move away from focusing primarily on what they did well and an over-extension financially and otherwise because of that which doomed JCP?

[JerryvonKramer]

Having spent about 20-odd minutes looking into this, one thing seems for certain: Sting never was a draw.

 

1980 - 1. Bob Backlund; 2. Bruno Sammartino; 3. Larry Zbyszko; 4. Harley Race and Ken Patera; 6. Andre the Giant; 7. Hulk Hogan; 8. Antonio Inoki; 9. Ric Flair and Stan Hansen

 

1981 - 1. Bob Backlund (dominant year); 2. Andre the Giant; 3. Ric Flair and Stan Hansen; 5. Hulk Hogan; 6. Sgt. Slaughter; 7. Killer Khan and Nick Bockwinkel; 9. Jerry Blackwell, Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes

 

1982 - 1. Bob Backlund (breaks Rogers record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Hulk Hogan; 4. Nick Bockwinkel; 5. Jimmy Snuka; 6. Perro Aguayo, Sgt. Slaughter, Roddy Piper and Superstar Billy Graham; 10. Andre the Giant, Junkyard Dog and Ken Patera

 

1983 - 1. Ric Flair; 2. Bob Backlund; 3. Harley Race; 4. Don Muraco; 5. Sgt. Slaughter; 6. Hulk Hogan; 7. Andre the Giant; 8. Jimmy Snuka; 9. Ricky Steamboat and John Studd

 

1984 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Antonio Inoki; 4. Iron Sheik; 5. Kerry Von Erich; 6. Andre the Giant; 7. Paul Orndorff and Road Warriors; 9. Junkyard Dog; 10. Nick Bockwinkel and Canek

 

1985 - 1 Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Roddy Piper; 4. Paul Orndorff and Road Warriors; 5. Andre the Giant; 6. John Studd; 7. Bob Orton Jr.; 8. Randy Savage and Antonio Inoki; 10. Kevin & Kerry Von Erich

 

1986 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair and Paul Orndorff; 4. Road Warriors; 5. Randy Savage; 6. Dusty Rhodes and Nikita Koloff; 7. Roddy Piper and King Kong Bundy; 9. Midnight Express and Tito Santana

 

1987 - 1. Hulk Hogan (dominant year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Randy Savage; 4. Kamala; 5. Road Warriors; 6. Dusty Rhodes and One Man Gang; 8. Andre the Giant and Antonio Inoki; 10. Harley Race and Carlos Colon

 

1988 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Randy Savage; 3. Ric Flair and Andre the Giant; 5. Ted DiBiase; 6. Lex Luger; 7. Big Bossman; 8. Tully Blanchard; 9. Road Warriors, Dusty Rhodes and Carlos Colon

 

1989 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Randy Savage; 3. Big Bossman; 4. Ultimate Warrior; 5. Big Van Vader; 6. Akira Maeda; 7. Antonio Inoki; 8. Andre the Giant, Carlos Colon and Rick Rude

 

1990 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Ultimate Warrior; 3. Stan Hansen; 4. Mr. Perfect; 5. Riki Choshu; 6. Konnan and Rick Rude; 8. Big Van Vader, Perro Aguayo and Earthquake

 

1991 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Ric Flair; 3. Konnan; 4. Perro Aguayo; 5. Sgt. Slaughter; 6. Ultimate Warrior; 7. Tatsumi Fujinami; 8. Undertaker, Genichiro Tenryu and Canek

 

1992 - 1. Ric Flair; 2. Konnan; 3. Hulk Hogan and Sid Vicious; 5. Cien Caras; 6. Bret Hart; 7. Randy Savage; 8. Vampiro; 9. Davey Boy Smith; 10. Perro Aguayo

 

1993 - 1. Konnan; 2. Cien Caras; 3. Perro Aguayo; 4. Genichiro Tenryu; 5. Mascara Ano 2000 and El Hijo del Santo; 7. Keiji Muto; 8. Riki Choshu, Love Machine, Octagon and Tatsumi Fujinami (Bret Hart was No. 1 in the United States)

 

1994 - 1. Konnan; 2. Bret Hart; 3. Shinya Hashimoto; 4. Nobuhiko Takada and Perro Aguayo; 6. Genichiro Tenryu; 7. Antonio Inoki, Owen Hart and Love Machine; 10. Cien Caras, Keiji Muto and Atsushi Onita

 

1995 - 1. Shinya Hashimoto; 2. Ric Flair; 3. Antonio Inoki; 4. Konnan and Keiji Muto; 6. Perro Aguayo; 7. Masahiro Chono; 8. Mitsuharu Misawa and Cien Caras; 10. Nobuhiko Takada and Diesel

 

1996 - 1. Nobuhiko Takada; 2. Shawn Michaels; 3. Shinya Hashimoto; 4. Bret Hart; 5. Keiji Muto; 6. Diesel; 7. Ric Flair, Kenta Kobashi, Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue, Vader, Genichiro Tenryu, El Hijo del Santo and Riki Choshu

 

1997 - 1. Shinya Hashimoto; 2. Undertaker; 3. Shawn Michaels; 4. Bret Hart; 5. Naoya Ogawa; 6. Lex Luger and Keiji Muto; 8. Steve Austin; 9. Hulk Hogan; 10. Riki Choshu, Kevin Nash and Mick Foley

 

1998 - 1. Steve Austin (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Undertaker; 3. Kane; 4. Mick Foley; 5. The Rock; 6. Bill Goldberg; 7. Hulk Hogan; 8. HHH; 9. Sting; 10. Randy Savage

 

1999 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Steve Austin; 3. HHH; 4. Big Show; 5. Kane; 6. Undertaker; 7. Keiji Muto; 8. Bill Goldberg; 9. Ric Flair; 10. Kevin Nash

 

2000 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. HHH; 3. Kurt Angle; 4. Kane and Chris Benoit; 6. X-Pac; 7. Undertaker; 8. Road Dogg; 9. Naoya Ogawa; 10. Kensuke Sasaki and Chris Jericho

 

2001 - 1. Steve Austin; 2. The Rock; 3. Kurt Angle; 4. HHH; 5. Undertaker; 6. Chris Jericho; 7. Kane; 8. Kensuke Sasaki, Chris Benoit and Keiji Muto

 

2002 -1. The Rock; 2. Bob Sapp; 3. HHH; 4. Hulk Hogan; 5. Chris Jericho; 6. Steve Austin; 7. Kazushi Sakuraba; 8. Brock Lesnar; 9. Yuji Nagata and Mirko Cro Cop

 

2003 - 1. Brock Lesnar; 2. HHH; 3. Kazushi Sakuraba; 4. Big Show and Kurt Angle; 6. Yuji Nagata, Hulk Hogan, Kenta Kobashi, Masahiro Chono, Bill Goldberg, Shawn Michaels and Wanderlei Silva

 

2004 - 1. HHH; 2. Chris Benoit; 3. Bob Sapp and Eddie Guerrero; 5. Shawn Michaels; 6. La Parka; 7. Randy Orton, Ric Flair and Kenta Kobashi; 10. Shinsuke Nakamura, Cibernetico and Perro Aguayo Jr.

 

2005 - 1. Kenta Kobashi; 2. HHH; 3. Mistico and Ultimo Guerrero; 5. Atlantis, John Cena and Batista; 8. Rey Bucanero and Cibernetico; 10. Kurt Angle and El Hijo del Santo

 

2006 - 1. Mistico; 2. Perro Aguayo Jr. and Dr. Wagner Jr.; 4. Atlantis and Black Warrior; 6. John Cena and Negro Casas; 8. Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero; 9. La Parka, Konnan and Muerte Cibernetico (Mesias)

 

2007 - 1. John Cena; 2. Mistico; 3. Batista; 4. Randy Orton and Perro Aguayo Jr; 6. Ultimo Guerrero; 7. Dr. Wagner Jr.; 8. Cibernetico; 9. Hector Garza and Great Khali

 

2008 - 1. Mistico; 2. HHH; 3. Perro Aguayo Jr.; 4. Ultimo Guerrero and Hector Garza; 6. Cibernetico; 7. Zorro and Shocker; 9. Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho

He only appears once in this list as the 9th biggest draw in 1998.

 

That's honestly surprising for me.

 

Sting has always seemed the most consistently over babyface. He always got a massive reaction. Guess it was a case of a particular set of fans of that loved him.

[Jingus]

Wouldn't Sting count as a draw during NWO-era WCW? Yeah, he was just one part of the package as opposed to the main focus, but he was a huge deal at the time. He got more out of hanging out in the rafters and looking mysterious than most guys ever do out of a to-the-moon main event push. Wasn't his fault that Starrcade and afterwards were booked so goddamn stupidly.

[Dylan Waco]

I assume those are Farmer's numbers. I like Matt and think his research has worth, but I think it is limited in assessing who was and wasn't a draw.

 

Having said that any other sort of research is pretty much going to get you the same result.

 

in fact if you look at the SMW and WCW pages on history of the wwe.com for the respective years in question you'd be shocked to see that if you adjust for size of markets run and overall market penetration Bullet Bob Armstrong was a better face of the promotion babyface draw than Sting from 91-94

[Matt D]

It's also worth saying that there's no reason we can't think highly of Sting or say that he did many things well. It's just that he doesn't match the general criteria for the WON HOF.

 

I have to think stuff like this all the time, because it's my natural tendency to back Sting in most things.

[NintendoLogic]

Wouldn't Sting count as a draw during NWO-era WCW? Yeah, he was just one part of the package as opposed to the main focus, but he was a huge deal at the time. He got more out of hanging out in the rafters and looking mysterious than most guys ever do out of a to-the-moon main event push. Wasn't his fault that Starrcade and afterwards were booked so goddamn stupidly.

He was a piece of the puzzle in 1997, but he was nowhere near the biggest piece. Episodes of Nitro he wasn't advertised on did just as well as ones he was. And he didn't draw on any house shows because he wasn't on any of them.

[NintendoLogic]

It's also worth saying that there's no reason we can't think highly of Sting or say that he did many things well. It's just that he doesn't match the general criteria for the WON HOF.

 

I have to think stuff like this all the time, because it's my natural tendency to back Sting in most things.

Sure. I feel like people are acting like being a Hall of Famer is the default position and not inducting someone is a huge slight. In fact, the opposite is true. You have to make an affirmative case for someone.