French catch

[ohtani's jacket]

I caught up with this week's Segunda Caida footage:

Andre Drapp vs. Jack Laskin (aired 6/21/57)

I'm starting to see past Drapp the bodybuilder and view him strictly as a wrestler. I'm glad this showed up because it's a tremendous showcase for his skills. You can see that he wasn't just influenced by Greco-Roman amateur wrestling and the European pro style but by the wrestling he picked up wrestling in the States and throughout the world. For a guy his size, he had a serious motor. I loved they way they laid this out. It's not the first time we've seen uppercuts lead to a KO victory in this French footage but it kicks ass every time. This was such an interesting time in wrestling history. Drapp could have easily gone into the movies like Steve Reeves, who made those Italian-made sword and sandal films, and in fact he was the toast of Hollywood at one point, but he was a wrestler and a culturist first and foremost. One of the things I love about French wrestling from this era is how guys like Laskin and Jack Bence can get main event bouts. It's hard to imagine a guy like Laskin getting a bout like this in North America, but in Paris he took center stage. There is actually a chapter in his book where he describes a match he had in Brussels right before this bout, although in typical wrestler fashion the facts don't support the claims. It's a good yarn, though.

Paul Debusne vs. Ami Sola (aired 6/26/57)

This looked like a fun preliminary bout. I definitely want to check out more Debusne. I keep seeing Sola in matches and can't recognize him yet. Don't know what that means.

Pierre Bernaert vs. Laurent Dauthille (aired 6/26/57)

Dauthille was part of a golden generation of French boxers. Names such as Marcel Cerdan, Robert Charron, Robert Villemain, Charles Humez, and Jean Wanes, some of whom also turned to pro-wrestling for a living. Dauthille, as we know, was leading Jake LaMotta on points heading into the final round of their world title fight before LaMotta staged a furious comeback and knocked Dauthille out with 13 seconds to spare. Apparently, that loss haunted him for the rest of his life. He wound up hitting the bottle and recreating the loss in circus shows, dying destitute in 1971. He made his pro-wrestling debut in 1953 against Debusne, so he had been wrestling for about four years at this point. But even though he was an important figure in the boxing world, this bout wasn't really about him. It was more of a showcase for Bernaert. Bernaert reminded me of Tully Blanchard in the sense that he was a technically gifted heel who preferred to use his technical skills in an evasive way. This was building nicely to Dauthille knocking him the fuck out but instead Bernaert did a runner and Dauthille was left looking weak. I can only assume that Dauthille didn't translate into box office otherwise you'd think this match would have been handled differently. It's interesting to see how the world of catch was so closely related to bodybuilding and boxing, however, and how pro-wrestling was one of the only ways these guys could make money after their chosen careers were over. Definitely a stark contrast between Drapp and Dauthille. 

[ohtani's jacket]

Andre Drapp vs. Andre Bollet (aired 7/15/60)

This was a solid bout, but as with a lot of Bollet's singles matches, it meandered at times. I've come to the conclusion that Bollet was a more talented wrestler than Delaporte but his matches were nowhere near as exciting. 

Le Petit Prince & Alan Mitchell vs. Daniel Noced & Guy Renault (aired 10/12/74)

Another awesome match from this crew. In a perfect world their stuff would be comped for everyone to see. This hit all of the sweet spots. There was brawling, matwork, comedy, slick exchanges -- everything you could hope to see. The commentator would roar with excitement one second then be in stitches the next. There was some ref bullshit at the end but it didn't mar what was pure entertainment.

Charles Humez vs. Paul Debusne (aired 4/2/59)

Charles Humez was another boxer turned wrestler. He was considered the second best French boxer of the post-War generation after Marcel Cerdan. He wasn't as popular as Cerdan, however, due to his reserved nature. Humez came from a coal mining background and didn't box with a lot of finesse. He was concerned with effectiveness and striking power. He boxed to win not make elegant gestures. He didn't participate in Parisian life either. During his short period as world champion, Cerdan was the toast of Paris. Humez preferred to return to his native region after every fight. For four years, from 1954-1958, Humez was the European Middleweight champion. He desperately wanted to earn a fight against Sugar Ray Robinson but stumbled in the US. This was the biggest regret of his career. He once said he would have liked to have fought at least once for the world title, even for free, then return to his native region satisfied. He retired from boxing after losing his title in '58, and I am fairly certain that this is his debut in catch as there was a ton of press. Interesting that they matched him against Debusne, who also handled Dauthille's debut. I guess he was a guy they trusted with greenhorns. His big thing was the faces he made when he was in a hold. This was much closer to a boxer vs. wrestler match than the Dauthille bout we saw. The ending was spectacular. If you've ever wanted to see a professional boxer's take on the forearm smash contest, you should check this out. Humez is nowhere else to be found in the footage but he makes for an interesting footnote.

Georges Cohen vs. Walter Bordes (aired 2/12/67)

Bordes was such a beautiful wrestler. Everything he did looked so smooth. He wasn't a guy who left a huge impression on me when we had limited access to this stuff, but he's really impressed me in the matches I've seen so far. Cohen was a talented wrestler as well, and this was a joy to watch. It followed a similar formula to the earlier Cohen match I watched against Giusto, so I guess there were patterns to his work. After an elegant and stylish beginning, Cohen started laying in some heavy shots and the match became hard-hitting and competitive. It was another take on the old forearm smash contest but instead of breaking down and turning into a brawl, it was more about the will to win. Bordes is fantastic and Cohen is firmly on ,my radar now.

[Matt D]

I'm so glad we have a name for this hold.

[ohtani's jacket]

Following along with the Segunda Caida boys:

Jo Rinaldi vs. Robert Moine (aired 7/11/57)

Fun preliminary bout. Rinaldi was billed as an Italian but I'm pretty sure it's another one of those deals where he had an Italian grandfather. Moine was an interesting wrestler. He was a short man but he could clearly wrestle. Rinaldi also looked like he knew his way around the ring. Moine disappears from bills at the end of 1960 but Rinaldi wrestled throughout the 60s.

Michel Chaisne vs. Pierre Bernaert (aired 7/11/57)

This wasn't the best performance we've seen from Bernaert but it was solid enough. Chaise was a handsome, popular heavyweight with a decent amount of fire. This followed a pattern we've seen a lot of so far -- some clean wrestling to start, the heel throws a few cheap shots, the face takes exception, there's some niggle, the face wins, the heel tries to sucker punch him, and the face throws him around the ring for a bit. There was nothing wrong with the formula. It was a perfectly decent way for Chaisne to get a win while Bernaert kept his heat. But I've seen plenty of matches lately that raised the bar with wild action and even wilder crowds.

Roger Delaporte & Guy Robin vs. Charlie Fisher & Arthur Fisher (aired 7/19/57)

This was a main event from the Cirque d'Hiver. The Fishers were British wrestlers, which continued the trend of Delaporte and partner wrestling foreigners. If you're having a hard time telling the Fisher brothers apart, don't worry. The commentator didn't have a clue either. For the record, Charlie Fisher was the animated one with the longer hair. He was pretty much the Terry Funk to his brother's version of Dory. The Fishers came from a family of seven brothers. Legend has it that they all wrestled but the Wrestling Heritage site expresses a fair amount of skepticism about that claim. Whatever career the older boys enjoyed didn't survive past the war. Arthur and Charlie were the youngest of the brothers and well known to Heritage fans. The Fisher brothers all started in boxing and you could see that in their approach to pro-wrestling. Charlie was the most renowned of the Fishers and was familiar to Parisian fans. This was a fun bout and an effortless watch, but if you think this was good, it wasn't even top end Delaporte. Just for kicks, I tried Matt's subtitles trick for this bout. I had to give up halfway through since the commentary read like philosophy. The highlight of the bout for me was Charlie Fisher's performance as the aggrieved baby face. I really need to learn what the French terms for heel and baby face were. 

[Matt D]

1. And here I thought the announcer was just particularly poignant.
2. I also want a the name for that leg trap powerbomb flip we saw a lot in the first few weeks of matches and then haven't seen for most of the rest of 1957.

[NintendoLogic]

If French Wikipedia is to be believed, the French equivalents of babyface and heel are beau and toc, respectively.

[PeteF3]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

1. And here I thought the announcer was just particularly poignant.
2. I also want a the name for that leg trap powerbomb flip we saw a lot in the first few weeks of matches and then haven't seen for most of the rest of 1957.

If I'm thinking of the same move, which I may not be, Kent Walton just called it a folding press.

[Matt D]

11 minutes ago, PeteF3 said:

If I'm thinking of the same move, which I may not be, Kent Walton just called it a folding press.

I think I know what you're thinking of. 

This is what I'm thinking of though:

 

[El-P]

2 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

If French Wikipedia is to be believed, the French equivalents of babyface and heel are beau and toc, respectively.

No idea where you found such a thing. It's not even a literal translation. The equivalent basically would be "gentil" and "méchant", which are the terms we use for movies too. (basically, "good" and "bad", literally "kind" or "gentle" and "mean")

[ohtani's jacket]

I see gentil and mechant being commonly used on the internet, but there was an interview with a former wrestler where he used the terms beau and toc. 

[SirEdger]

"Gentil" et "méchant" are more used in Quebec than anything. "Beau" and "toc" definitely feels more French.

[El-P]

25 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I see gentil and mechant being commonly used on the internet, but there was an interview with a former wrestler where he used the terms beau and toc. 

I would be curious to see that. It doesn't even make any sense relative to a good guy and a bad guy. It would basically mean "good looking" vs "fake" or "cheap". Like, WTF ?

[PeteF3]

I mean, "good-looking" isn't really that far from "babyface," is it? And in the UK it's "blue-eye," which could probably sound as equally nonsensical to foreign ears. Slang can be weird and inside-industry slang weirder still.

[El-P]

I guess, but like I said, never heard it before, in any context. That's why I would be interested to read/hear the source.

[ohtani's jacket]

7 minutes ago, El-P said:

I guess, but like I said, never heard it before, in any context. That's why I would be interested to read/hear the source.

http://archives.bordeaux7.com/bordeaux-actu/49-actu/12752-catch-rencontre-

[El-P]

38 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

http://archives.bordeaux7.com/bordeaux-actu/49-actu/12752-catch-rencontre-

Thanks.

Well... like I said, I wouldn't consider this as a valid source at all, unless you stumble on those terms over and over again from publications from when it was really popular (which is way before the 70's). How in the hell did you fall on *this* interview ?  

[ohtani's jacket]

Google search.

Some sites are saying kayfabe is called vinak in French. 

[ohtani's jacket]

Roger Delaporte vs. Jean Fryziuk (aired 5/3/62)

Up until now, we've seen Delaporte take on foreign wrestlers and the big French stars. This was the first time to watch him take on someone at Fryziuk's level.  I was curious to see whether Delaporte would elevate Fryziuk to the same level as him or just coast. The verdict? Another wild, rollicking affair. Fryziuk seemed to have bulked up and was unrecognizable from earlier matches. In fact, I had my doubts over whether it was the same guy, but perhaps he moved up a weight. I'm starting to wonder if Delaporte was some kind of genius. Early on, I described Bollet as being the Mick McManus of catch, but that's clearly wrong. If there was a McManus, it's Delaporte. I swear, everything he does is entertaining. Every hold, every gesture, every mannerism. I get bored easily wile watching wrestling, but every second of Delaporte match is entertaining. He is the only wrestler I have ever seen who can make a 40 minute match feel like a four minute clip. He has almost no technical ability but is unparalleled as a performer. When you read about Couderc's commentary, and the spectacle that was French catch, it was Delaporte at the heart of it. 

Le Petit Prince & Michel Saulnier vs. Guy Renault & Bobby Genele (aired 12/13/71)

As we now know, catch started to decline in popularity in the late 60s. Promoters tried everything to revive interest in it from the avant garde to the risque (topless women's wrestling, anyone?), but ultimately it suffered the same fate that befell British wrestling. There were some bright spots, however. We've seen a lot of great tag matches from the 70s and a lot of great light weight action. This was another gem. From all accounts, the Prince had a passion for catch, and I guess you can see it these matches. When the scene died out, he took it hard. He spent the rest of his life trying to be involved in the business. And died in Thailand where he was pursuing some dream to open a wrestling school. This was just as entertaining as the other Prince tags. Renault and Genele were a regular tag team so had strong chemistry. The real highlight of this, however, was Saulnier playing the fired up babyface role. It's not a role I'd seen him play before and he was outstanding. A real treat to watch. 

Karl von Kramer vs. Gass Doukhan (aired 7/25/65)

Now this was interesting. At first glance, von Kramer looked like he might be your typical power guy who used a ton of strength holds, or a heel who had some kind of nerve hold, but he actually had quite the bag of tricks. It's only one match, but I want to say he was cut from the same mold as Terry Rudge. Doukhan was solid enough, but I think Cohen was better.

Pepe Marques vs. Tito Kopa (aired 3/20/66)

Tito Kopa was a Polish wrestler who wrestled all over the world. He was an odd-looking wrestler. Short (only 5'3") and incredibly stocky with a shaven head and a hairy chest. He was billed here as Tito Kopak from States. I desperately wanted him to be amazing since I have seen photos of wrestling a bear and shit, but he worked the most generic style I have seen in catch. It was the same style that a lot of heels worked in the US. He'd clench on a hold and do nothing with it. Really boring. 

[El-P]

10 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

Google search.

Some sites are saying kayfabe is called vinak in French. 

Google is odd. 

BTW, I think it's safe to say that Roger Couderc was to french catch what Lance Russel was to Memphis. He was awesome.

[ohtani's jacket]

Andre Bollet vs. Eddy Wiecz (aired 8/20/65)

This was the first in a series of matches we have between Bollet and Wiecz. For some reason, Carpentier was billed as Wiecz here. I guess it depended on which promoter he was working for. I'm pretty sure he was working for Delaporte in this bout. I would have liked to have seen Carpentier against top flight opposition like Leduc or Drapp, but it will be interesting to see whether Bollet and Wiecz can build on their matches or if they repeat the same match. As I've mentioned before, I'm not a huge fan of Carpentier, but he at least stood out in the States due to some of the athleticism and acrobatics he brought to the ring. In a match like this, he's kind of pegged into the angry baby face role, trying to get a reaction from the crowd with his retaliatory cheap shots. If you didn't know he had been a big thing in the States, it would be hard to imagine him being anything special. 

Franz van Buyten vs. Karl Schneider (aired 8/7/77)

This was a  clip of one of those rubbish swimming pool matches. I think these matches come from Aulnay-sous-Bois, which is in the north-eastern suburbs of Paris. This had commentary from the famous French broadcaster, Georges de Caunes. That was the only notable thing about it.

Franz van Buyten vs. Ivan Strogoff (aired 8/8/77)

One of the regrettable things about this collection is that we don't have footage of van Buyten against top opponents. I guess that's not surprising since van Buyten wasn't exactly a regular in Paris. I suppose we should be grateful for the Gastel and Andre matches, but it would have been nice to have seen van Buyten against a real technician. Having said that, we should be thankful for this match. Strogoff was a Belgian wrestler. A bruiser, basically, like Gastel. Once again, van Buyten wrestled a beautiful match. That's one thing I admire about van Buyten. Every match was an empty canvas to him. Even the swimming pool crap. I enjoyed all of the details and nuances in this since every new van Buyten match is a find to me. 

Roger Delaporte vs. Vassilios Mantopoulos (aired 3/23/68)

This caught my eye as an interesting catch weight contest. Delaporte had silver hair here, and while he put on a hell of a show, the magic wasn't quite the same. I wasn't a big fan of the ref here. He was a ref on a lot of the Delaporte shows. I don't know if he was a former wrestler or not, but he was the same size as Delaporte and he got involved in the action a lot. It distracted from both the match and the catch weight element. It wasn't a bad match, but you could tell things were growing stagnant. It wasn't match that played to Mantopoulos' usual strengths, and unlike Saulnier playing the fired up babyface role with aplomb, it didn't reveal a new side to him. He was pigeon-holed into a generic role like Carpentier, which is either a problem with catch in general or a side effect of Delaporte's booking style. This was always going to be one of those bouts where nothing is settled, but bouts like that should leave you wanting more. Not the case here. 

Eddy Wiecz & Warnia de Zarzecki vs. Rudi Saturski & Harry Wenzl (aired 8/29/66)

Saturski and Wenzl were German wrestlers who wrestled in the States as the Bavarian Boys and in France as Les Golden Boys. In the States, they were baby faces, which I guess was rare for a pair of Germans. In France, they were heels. Saturski won multiple tournaments in Berlin, so I was expecting him to be this great German wrestling champion. Imagine my surprise when he turned out to be Ric Flair circa 1992. Saturski and Wenzl were full blown toks in this (sorry, just wanted to say that once.) This had all the hallmarks of Delaporte booking. It was a wild bout with a ton of ref spots. I think it was the same ref from the Mantopolous match, actually. There was one ref spot where the editor started fucking around with his cuts. The crowd loved it. You had guys taking off their jackets to challenge the Germans to a fight. It was the kind of shit you'd expect from a Delaporte match a decade earlier. You could have plugged any two faces into the beau side, but Saturski was entertaining. There was one spot where he pulled himself along the bottom rope to make the desperate tag. An entertaining bout but it didn't feel as authentic as the 50s stuff. I don't know if this shit killed the territory or not, but I could see it getting old in a hurry. 

 

[El-P]

40 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

This had commentary from the famous French broadcaster, Georges de Caunes.

I grew up watching his son on TV. And I love his grand-daughter (who's an actress and TV personality).

40 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

 Roger Delaporte vs. Vassilios Mantopoulos (aired 3/23/68)

It wasn't a bad match, but you could tell things were growing stagnant.

Interesting, in this interview

https://www.vice.com/fr/article/bm9e3m/quand-le-catch-francais-vivait-ses-heures-de-gloire

the author remarks that May 68 did hurt pro-wrestling as society really changed afterward and also more different kind of entertainment emerged.

I would add that probably, porn movies showing up on theatre screens in 1969 and being the brand new things for adult entertainment probably didn't help that old wrestling which was an inheritance of the old world, the post-war/pre-sexual-revolution period.

[gordi]

On 2/15/2020 at 11:56 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

Franz van Buyten vs. Rocky Della Serra (aired 7/28/84)

I am pretty sure this was Rocky Della Serra, the brother of Bob Della Serra, who was the masked UFO. This wasn't bad. It felt like the best Piratenkampf match you could have on television. I don't think you can expect to see the long, gritty Piratenkampf matches from the house show handhelds. It was more like the World's Greatest Reslo match. I'm pretty sure we've seen this type of TV before as well with the staged crowd reactions and the cutaway to the folks sitting in a studio. The ones sitting in front of that painting. I've definitely seen that painting before in some of the colour footage we have. Televised catch was at death's door at this point (pardon my analogy), so just the fact that this was halfway decent was a godsend. 

"Bob UFO" was definitely Rocky Della Sera. I've lost contact with Rocky over the years, but I sent the video link to my old friend Vicious Verne and he passed it on to Rocky. Rocky had never seen that video before. They were both really happy to see it and send their thanks to everyone involved in unearthing it.

[SirEdger]

Man, hadn't heard of Rocky Dellasera since the days of Lutte Internationale in Montreal when I was a kid.

[khawk20]

On 4/27/2020 at 7:08 PM, SirEdger said:

Man, hadn't heard of Rocky Dellasera since the days of Lutte Internationale in Montreal when I was a kid.

Yeah even though they worked other places (Bob did some good work in Portland as Karl Steiner as I recall), when I hear the Della Serra name and it takes my memory to Montreal right away.

[ohtani's jacket]

Gilbert Cesca & Bruno Asquini vs. Les Blousons Noirs (aired 1/25/71)

Asquini is a name I've seen pop up a lot in match records. He was reportedly an Italian wrestler based in France, but it's safer to assume he was French-Italian since he had a successful amateur career in France and was a French military champion. Unfortunately, we don't have a strong singles showcase for him, but Bob ALPRA says he was one of the finest technicians of his era. This wasn't an ideal match to showcase that technique, but he did bust out a couple of fun spots. Everyone looked a bit long in the tooth, however.

Janos Vadkerti vs. Roland Daumal (aired 10/13/60)

Daumal was one of the best wrestlers in the immediate post-war era (the era that Lino Ventura wrestled in), and we certainly saw glimpses of that here. His role here was to put over the younger Hungarian wrestler, but he worked a few spots that you don't typically see and I would like to see more of him even as a veteran.

Guy Tallieu vs. Cesar Franck (aired 11/9/62)

This was four minutes long. I'm not sure why I watched it. The names caught my attention. Franck was billed as Gerald Franck here. 

Jean Debuf vs. Jack Rouxel (aired 11/10/61)

This was Debuf's debut. He had a muscular debut and mostly worked strength holds. Rouxel tried to draw some heat for him but using cheap shots but the crowd wasn't receptive. Debuf won with a proper bearhug.

Yves Amor & Georges Gueret vs. Eddie Williams & Ray Golden Apollon (aired 3/28/65)

Amor shaved his beard. That's not right.

Ray Apollon was billed from Trinidad and Tobago, but unlike a lot of the British wrestlers who were billed from the West Indies, he had much closer ties to the islands. He was born in New York and spent at least part of this upbringing in Trinidad. The son of a famous doctor, he was studying medicine in Paris when he became involved in wrestling and weightlifting scene. Against his father's wishes, he became a wrestler and was a fairly big star in Europe during the 1960s. Legend has it that he wrestled Dara Singh in Nairobi, Prince Kumali in Kenya, and was made a Chief in Nigeria where they named him "The Lion King." An intelligent man, Apollon spoke several languages and had a keen interest in politics and medicine. He dined with kings and queens and stayed at the home of the Kenyan president. Late in his career, he wrestled on the shows that Colon promoted in Trinidad and had matches against Abdullah the Butcher and Ric Flair. Laskin wrote about him in his book, but he got his details confused with Bob Elandon. 

Eddie Williams was a Martinique-born Canadian wrestler who posters here may know better as Eddie Morrow, the older brother of Gerry Morrow. I believe Gerry Morrow actually got his start in Paris and eventually settled in Canada. Eddie Williams was more of a globetrotter and ended up settling in Australia. 

That, unfortunately, is the most interesting part of the bout. Amor and Gueret are fun heels but this was the epitome of stagnant mid-60s catch. Generic heel vs face stuff with none of the charm of French catch. Apollon had this weird style of working that looked kind of fake. Williams didn't leave much of an impression. And Amor shaved.