Wrestling Culture Podcast #1

[Dylan Waco]

Bret is also widely regarded as the best in ring performer in WWE history as well. And for that matter the best in ring performer of the 90s in the States

[subatomic_elbow]

Am I the only one who was disappointed that this wasn't the lead singer of Megadeath talking about wrestling?

[rovert]

Am I the only one who was disappointed that this wasn't the lead singer of Megadeath talking about wrestling?

Wrest in Peace?

[FLIK]

Just finished listening to the 1st show on the HOF, really good stuff. Having listened to a bunch of podcast on the HOF over the past month or so this was easily the best.

 

A lot of the others came across to me like a giant douchey circle jerk with dudes going "rah rah look how smart we are for liking wrestler A who's clearly better then wrestler B. All the people who like B are idiots with no taste" or feature a lot of arrogant "I know little to nothing about wrestler X but i'll judge him to be no good anyways" type talk.

 

This had neither so was a nice refreshing change of pace.

[Paul Jacobi]

Bret was a better worker and a better draw than Sting, both by a significant margin. In the 90s, only Austin, Hogan, Taker, Rock, and Foley headlined more 10000+ shows than Bret. Sting isn't in the top 15 on that list. And Sting didn't open up any markets for WCW the way Bret opened up Europe for the WWF.

 

How did Bret 'open' anything for WWF in Europe? They successfully ran England, Ireland, Germany and other countries in 91 and 92 before he was an established main eventer. He was a top guy on several successful overseas shows (which judging from Cawthorn's site) which were pretty loaded, but then the same thing happened in '95 with Nash mainly on top.

 

Rather than give anyone undue credit, it's probably more a case of WWF in general being over and the novelty of them coming overseas with most of the talent that was the real draw.

[Paul Jacobi]

Bret is also widely regarded as the best in ring performer in WWE history as well. And for that matter the best in ring performer of the 90s in the States

 

Widely regarded by whom?

 

Dave, Alvarez and others would probably say Shawn Michaels (with Hart up there with him).

Some would say Steve Austin, but unless you're just talking perhaps this board and a few others cohabited by several individuals who also post here, I don't think Bret is any runaway consensus.

[Dylan Waco]

Bret is also widely regarded as the best in ring performer in WWE history as well. And for that matter the best in ring performer of the 90s in the States

 

Widely regarded by whom?

 

Dave, Alvarez and others would probably say Shawn Michaels (with Hart up there with him).

Some would say Steve Austin, but unless you're just talking perhaps this board and a few others cohabited by several individuals who also post here, I don't think Bret is any runaway consensus.

 

I call bullshit on this.

 

It is possible that because of post-comeback stuff Michaels is regarded as the better of the two by Dave, Bryan and even a more recent wave of fans. What I do know is that at the time Bret got in he was regarded as an especially great talent and was considered a leg above Shawn. In the late 90's/early 00's when the debate came up online Bret was the overwhelming consensus pick over Shawn in both of these categories. Believe it or not about ten years ago I was in the distinct minority of rating Shawn over Bret - I remember one poll I did in 00 where I was the ONLY person of forty voters that had Shawn over Bret (from memory Benoit had number one votes - the poll was for best U.S. worker of the 90's). As a recently as the Smarkchoice Best of the WWE/WWF poll the consensus was that Bret was better than Shawn and that was a poll that attracted a very broad cross section of voters.

 

I certainly believe that the WWE has created a narrative whereby Shawn is SUPPOSED to be the THE GREATEST SUPERSTAR IN THE HISTORY OF THE WWE UNIVERSE! But I see little evidence that this is a prevalent opinion in hardcore fan circles. Having said that if the narrative continues to be pushed by the promotion I think it could eventually take hold.

 

For the record at this point I would probably rate Rey as the best in ring wrestler in WWE/F history. Not sure who I would rate as the best in ring wrestler of the 90's in the States.

[Paul Jacobi]

Bret is also widely regarded as the best in ring performer in WWE history as well. And for that matter the best in ring performer of the 90s in the States

 

Widely regarded by whom?

 

Dave, Alvarez and others would probably say Shawn Michaels (with Hart up there with him).

Some would say Steve Austin, but unless you're just talking perhaps this board and a few others cohabited by several individuals who also post here, I don't think Bret is any runaway consensus.

 

I call bullshit on this.

 

It is possible that because of post-comeback stuff Michaels is regarded as the better of the two by Dave, Bryan and even a more recent wave of fans. What I do know is that at the time Bret got in he was regarded as an especially great talent and was considered a leg above Shawn. In the late 90's/early 00's when the debate came up online Bret was the overwhelming consensus pick over Shawn in both of these categories. Believe it or not about ten years ago I was in the distinct minority of rating Shawn over Bret - I remember one poll I did in 00 where I was the ONLY person of forty voters that had Shawn over Bret (from memory Benoit had number one votes - the poll was for best U.S. worker of the 90's). As a recently as the Smarkchoice Best of the WWE/WWF poll the consensus was that Bret was better than Shawn and that was a poll that attracted a very broad cross section of voters.

 

I certainly believe that the WWE has created a narrative whereby Shawn is SUPPOSED to be the THE GREATEST SUPERSTAR IN THE HISTORY OF THE WWE UNIVERSE! But I see little evidence that this is a prevalent opinion in hardcore fan circles. Having said that if the narrative continues to be pushed by the promotion I think it could eventually take hold.

 

For the record at this point I would probably rate Rey as the best in ring wrestler in WWE/F history. Not sure who I would rate as the best in ring wrestler of the 90's in the States.

 

Reading the older Observers on Dave's site contradicts this. He's been beating the Michaels drum since the beginning and has called him the best in the company as early as 1992. I'm not saying it was agreed upon, but it's not like the idea of Shawn being the best in WWF was something that came out of nowhere.

Bret went in 96, when he was already a longtime veteran, had a few main event runs and was and Shawn had really only broken through to the main event a year prior.

I also think that a lot of the reporting on Shawn's bullshit in the 90's colored him in a bad way for a lot of fans, particularly with the screwjob placing Bret in such a sympathetic light.

Being 1 of 40 in an internet poll is not representative of a 'wide consensus' unless you only consider the smarkschoice board or a place like DVDR as indicative as the 'hardcore' consensus. It's part of it, but to say a few hundred represent the consensus view of the hardcore base is disingenuous.

 

I do agree with you on Mysterio though. He has a case for sure as best WWE worker of all time.

 

I also agree that post comeback Michaels has put him above Hart. Unlike many people here, I totally agree with that since I'm a big fan of a lot of his matches from '02-'09.

[Dylan Waco]

I should be clear - I would not AGREE that post-comeback Shawn has put him above Bret. I dislike most of post-comeback Shawn work. But it puts him fresher in peoples minds and it is a run that definitely has it's fans. It also has opened him up to a whole different grouping of fans that have little idea of who Bret was or the value he had as a worker to the promotion.

 

I don't have access to the older comments of Dave. What I do know for a fact is that I was a clear minority in arguing that Shawn was better than Bret 11 years ago (in hindsight I don't agree with even that for the record, opinions change). I'm not saying that the DVDVR/SC represents full consensus. I'm saying that EVERYWHERE you looked ten years ago that was the consensus, and even moving forward among smart fans I know - of all types - Bret has consistently been rated above Shawn (especially if you are isolating just 90's work). Perhaps Meltzer himself was an exception like myself. I don't know. I wasn't a WON Subscriber.

 

One thing that is worth pointing out is that while Bret got in in 96, Shawn got in on his run through 98. Whatever one thinks of Shawn as an HoFer now, I think Shawn's candidacy through 98 is probably weaker than Sting's candidacy to bring this full circle.

[jdw]

Dave probably had Shawn ahead of Bret in the 1990 Yearbooks. May have in 1989 as well. Shawn is Dave's type of worker. Bret... really isn't. He has said lots of nice things about Bret's work over the years, so it's not that Dave doesn't think he's a great worker. Just that he's pretty consistently rated Shawn higher.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

Bret was a better worker and a better draw than Sting, both by a significant margin. In the 90s, only Austin, Hogan, Taker, Rock, and Foley headlined more 10000+ shows than Bret. Sting isn't in the top 15 on that list. And Sting didn't open up any markets for WCW the way Bret opened up Europe for the WWF.

 

How did Bret 'open' anything for WWF in Europe? They successfully ran England, Ireland, Germany and other countries in 91 and 92 before he was an established main eventer. He was a top guy on several successful overseas shows (which judging from Cawthorn's site) which were pretty loaded, but then the same thing happened in '95 with Nash mainly on top.

 

Rather than give anyone undue credit, it's probably more a case of WWF in general being over and the novelty of them coming overseas with most of the talent that was the real draw.

 

I need to re-up my subscription, but I recall seeing something in the WON or F4W about Bret's international drawing power. And I'm pretty sure Vince himself has said that Bret was his biggest international draw.

[puropotsy]

Am I the only one who was disappointed that this wasn't the lead singer of Megadeath talking about wrestling?

Lol, I've gotten that a few times in my life, not as much as Muskrat though

[puropotsy]

Just finished listening to the 1st show on the HOF, really good stuff. Having listened to a bunch of podcast on the HOF over the past month or so this was easily the best.

 

A lot of the others came across to me like a giant douchey circle jerk with dudes going "rah rah look how smart we are for liking wrestler A who's clearly better then wrestler B. All the people who like B are idiots with no taste" or feature a lot of arrogant "I know little to nothing about wrestler X but i'll judge him to be no good anyways" type talk.

 

This had neither so was a nice refreshing change of pace.

Thanks man! It was fun and the feedback is appreciated

[puropotsy]

Dave probably had Shawn ahead of Bret in the 1990 Yearbooks. May have in 1989 as well. Shawn is Dave's type of worker. Bret... really isn't. He has said lots of nice things about Bret's work over the years, so it's not that Dave doesn't think he's a great worker. Just that he's pretty consistently rated Shawn higher.

 

John

I actually heard Dave say on an f3w show that he loved wtching Bret's matches between 1994-1996 in a way that he liked noone else's, that he brought an intensity to them that maybe only Misawa had so I' say that he is also a pretty big Bret fan.

[Eduardo]

Dave probably had Shawn ahead of Bret in the 1990 Yearbooks. May have in 1989 as well. Shawn is Dave's type of worker. Bret... really isn't. He has said lots of nice things about Bret's work over the years, so it's not that Dave doesn't think he's a great worker. Just that he's pretty consistently rated Shawn higher.

 

John

I actually heard Dave say on an f3w show that he loved wtching Bret's matches between 1994-1996 in a way that he liked noone else's, that he brought an intensity to them that maybe only Misawa had so I' say that he is also a pretty big Bret fan.

 

Meltzer has also praised Bret Hart's ability to carry workers, saying it was very different to the way Michaels or Flair would carry lesser workers. I remember during the whole Hart/Flair internet feud, Meltzer writing a long piece in the Observer, that basically ended with Meltzer saying that he felt that Hart was able to make you think a guy he was working with was actually better than he was as opposed to Flair (or Michaels) putting on their show and getting in their spots to "make up" for the lesser worker. I remember Meltzer using a corny line about Bret "being a magician in the ring" in regards to him being able to craft matches with lesser workers

[Ricky Jackson]

Bret apparently made Tom Magee look like a million bucks. End of discussion.

[Eduardo]

Who else but Meltzer has seen that Magee match? I remember someone on DVDVR claiming to have seen it, but I can't recall who.

 

Apparently, Bret really wanted to put it on his DVD set that WWE put out, but they didn't like the idea.

[puropotsy]

Who else but Meltzer has seen that Magee match? I remember someone on DVDVR claiming to have seen it, but I can't recall who.

 

Apparently, Bret really wanted to put it on his DVD set that WWE put out, but they didn't like the idea.

Colt Cabana said that every month when he would request matches from the video collection he would ask for that match but they wouldn't provide it.

Apparently there was a newspaper reporter aside from Dave there and they both along with Vince all thought Tom Maghee was the next big thing. Dave talked with Colt in their show together a few months ago as being amazing because Bret made him look great in the match without people (

including Vince, Dave and the reporter) realizing that this was actually what happened.

[goodhelmet]

Am I the only one who was disappointed that this wasn't the lead singer of Megadeath talking about wrestling?

Wrest in Peace?

 

Dylan is my business and business is good?

[jdw]

I actually heard Dave say on an f3w show that he loved wtching Bret's matches between 1994-1996 in a way that he liked noone else's, that he brought an intensity to them that maybe only Misawa had so I' say that he is also a pretty big Bret fan.

Meltzer has also praised Bret Hart's ability to carry workers, saying it was very different to the way Michaels or Flair would carry lesser workers. I remember during the whole Hart/Flair internet feud, Meltzer writing a long piece in the Observer, that basically ended with Meltzer saying that he felt that Hart was able to make you think a guy he was working with was actually better than he was as opposed to Flair (or Michaels) putting on their show and getting in their spots to "make up" for the lesser worker. I remember Meltzer using a corny line about Bret "being a magician in the ring" in regards to him being able to craft matches with lesser workers

 

I talked to Dave in 1994-96 more than anyone other than probably Bruce and Tenay. Dave liked Bret. He didn't think he was as good a Shawn. He didn't think he was close to Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi or Benoit. Toss in Toyota as well. Seriously... I can't think of any Bret matches we spent much time talking about other than the Bret-Davey IYH (80% about the blading / non-blading) and Bret-Shawn at Mania (which we went to live). "Did you see.... ?" almost never related to a Bret match, and it's not like all we talked about was puroresu.

 

The Flair/Hart internet feud was after Dave started rethinking Bret, not what he wrote at the time.

 

In a way, Bret is almost unique: he's one worker where Dave really rethought his view on his work later.

 

I'm never going to say that Dave didn't like Bret's work. There are positive comments about Bret going back well into the 80s... well, with the exception of Dave bagging on Bret's house show work on occassion. But his comments about Shawn... different level.

 

An example:

 

I joked recently about a comment in one of Dave's 1994 Carny TV reports that was a mild barb thrown at me. It related to a Shawn match... and not the praised Bret match on the same card which was also a part of my comment to him that drew the barb.

 

The kind of funny thing about reading the comments of Noodles and puropotsy is that they're far closer to Yohe's thoughts in 1994-96 on Bret at the time, and not as much Dave's except on a match here and a match there. Yohe was about the biggest backer of Bret's at the time compared to Shawn, and would say as much on road trips when the WWF came up.

 

John

[puropotsy]

I actually heard Dave say on an f3w show that he loved wtching Bret's matches between 1994-1996 in a way that he liked noone else's, that he brought an intensity to them that maybe only Misawa had so I' say that he is also a pretty big Bret fan.

Meltzer has also praised Bret Hart's ability to carry workers, saying it was very different to the way Michaels or Flair would carry lesser workers. I remember during the whole Hart/Flair internet feud, Meltzer writing a long piece in the Observer, that basically ended with Meltzer saying that he felt that Hart was able to make you think a guy he was working with was actually better than he was as opposed to Flair (or Michaels) putting on their show and getting in their spots to "make up" for the lesser worker. I remember Meltzer using a corny line about Bret "being a magician in the ring" in regards to him being able to craft matches with lesser workers

 

I talked to Dave in 1994-96 more than anyone other than probably Bruce and Tenay. Dave liked Bret. He didn't think he was as good a Shawn. He didn't think he was close to Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi or Benoit. Toss in Toyota as well. Seriously... I can't think of any Bret matches we spent much time talking about other than the Bret-Davey IYH (80% about the blading / non-blading) and Bret-Shawn at Mania (which we went to live). "Did you see.... ?" almost never related to a Bret match, and it's not like all we talked about was puroresu.

 

The Flair/Hart internet feud was after Dave started rethinking Bret, not what he wrote at the time.

 

In a way, Bret is almost unique: he's one worker where Dave really rethought his view on his work later.

 

I'm never going to say that Dave didn't like Bret's work. There are positive comments about Bret going back well into the 80s... well, with the exception of Dave bagging on Bret's house show work on occassion. But his comments about Shawn... different level.

 

An example:

 

I joked recently about a comment in one of Dave's 1994 Carny TV reports that was a mild barb thrown at me. It related to a Shawn match... and not the praised Bret match on the same card which was also a part of my comment to him that drew the barb.

 

The kind of funny thing about reading the comments of Noodles and puropotsy is that they're far closer to Yohe's thoughts in 1994-96 on Bret at the time, and not as much Dave's except on a match here and a match there. Yohe was about the biggest backer of Bret's at the time compared to Shawn, and would say as much on road trips when the WWF came up.

 

John

 

I wasn't following Dave's writing in 1994 (sure wish I had been) so anything I would cite would be through the lens of his modern views.