Larry Matysik's 50 Greatest Professional Wrestlers

[jdw]

A lot of stuff in the thread, hard to find a point to jump in, so...

 

I was thinking JCP were national before the buyout and up until 88 they were making money.

JCP went national largely in 1986. One will find some examples of them working "out of territory" before that, but 1986 is a safe one to point at.

 

They made money in 1986.

 

Business started having issues in 1987. Some areas did okay, many didn't. With good & bad happening in both the expanded areas and in the core.

 

 

A few things were badly botched: UWF, the two offices, grip on costs, marketing in general, Dusty's booking, Magnum's injury etc. but Jim Crockett Jr took things national himself.

He took himself national.

 

He also was sucking wind in 1987, to the point that Starcade 87 was the big bet... and it bombed.

 

 

They were making good money in 85, 86, 87.

They were making good money at some point in 1985. I'm not sure it's really clear when the cash register clicked, but I don't think it was the entire year.

 

1986 was a strong year. They pretty much had Flair the whole year with few out-of-JCP trips. They had the RW the entire year. MX vs R'n'R was hot. Etc. Very good year.

 

1987... it's hard to know if the company ended the year with a net income. They were blowing money left and right, and taking out some big loans. Business was down in a lot of places. Not sure I'd say that was a positive.

 

 

Not Vince money but pretty good, and better than any other promotion.

The rest of wrestling was largely dead at that point, other than promotions like Memphis, Portland and the AWA that were running on a bargain basement level. Being better than that base line doesn't matter. It's a bit like TNA doing better than anyone else.

 

 

Meltzer goes through it in tedious detail which I'm sure you've read.

Meltzer actually spent a large chunk of 1987 talking about how rough things were getting for JCP.

 

 

It's that I'm crediting Flair for -- drawing for a company with completely inept business savvy and zero marketing knowhow. It's everything upto Turner in November 88 rather than after it.

If we talk about "everything up to Turner in Nov 1988", then we're talking about a company that went out of business. Which is what happened to JCP: Crockett when broke.

 

Ric's fault? Generally speaking, no. The business was run bad. But one has to be ginger about the "JCP Goes National" credit for Flair when the end result was a company that went broke with Ric Flair the anchor on top through 100% of that national expansion.

 

88 itself was a disaster for JCP and nothing short of a clusterfuck of mistakes. But Flair's 77-87 from a drawing and promotion growth perspective is as important to that company as Hogan was to Vince.

Well, the problem with 1977-87 is that it includes a chunk of time where Ric wasn't in JCP (9/81 - some point in 1985) where he was running around being NWA Champ. His time in JCP in that stretch was limited, and his sustained impact on it was limited. So we can't give him a lot of "JCP Credit" for that stretch. We can give him World Champion Credit... but touring NWA World Champs all tend to get it.

 

Credit to Ric in 1986, though hardly sole credit. 1987... that's a problem.

 

 

WCW until Bishcoff never made a dime (as WCW 89-96) I'm just saying the infrastructure, what gates they could rely on, the audience -- all that was the house built by Flair. Even if by 92-3 it had been severely eroded and by 96 transformed beyond all recognition into an ersatz WWF.

WCW stopped being the House That Ric Built in 1994 when Hogan came in. Over time, it became the House The Eric Built. Not a lot of the foundation was built on Ric, or stuff that was built while Ric was around.

 

 

I think Flair's achievements as a draw and promotional lynchpin for JCP (77-87) tend to be buried under the weight of WCW's commercial failure (89-96) and Hogan's incomparable WWF numbers. I don't think he's given a fair shake and what he did, whichever way you look at it, IS really important to wrestling history.

I think your notion that Ric was a lynchpin for JCP for all that 77-87 run shows a lack of understanding of what the NWA Champ was all about.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Go on jdw I'm listening.

 

My impression is that even if Flair was gone for stretches, on Mid-Atlantic TV he'd still be treated like The Man. Starrcade 83 and 84 were built around him.

[jdw]

Go on jdw I'm listening.

 

My impression is that even if Flair was gone for stretches, on Mid-Atlantic TV he'd still be treated like The Man.

He was the NWA World Champ in an NWA Territory. Of course he was pimped on TV, when coming in.

 

 

Starrcade 83 and 84 were built around him.

So were Parade of Champions in 1984 & 1985.

 

He worked a good deal of JCP in 1983 when he dropped the belt. He also toured as Harley's opponent.

 

Anyway, here's a partial list of NWA Title Matches for 1983-85:

 

http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/...atches1983.html

 

http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/...atches1984.html

 

http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/...atches1985.html

 

It's pretty much exactly what one would expect: The NWA Champion isn't a JCP Wrestler, or a wrestler for any one promotion. Even more so than the data reflects, since the "missing matches" are almost always in smaller territories where results haven't been as well documented/tracked as in the larger ones.

 

John

[jdw]

Forgot to mention in the last one.

 

That change is rather obvious:

 

http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/...atches1986.html

[evilclown]

Why do you think Joe Stecher is usually included as kind of an after thought?

 

What about other short term box office stars like Danno O'Mahoney, Gus Sonnenberg, Bronko Nagurski, etc?

 

Why do the 1930's-1950's seem like they don't even exist when people make lists like this?

[Dylan Waco]

It's generally thought that WCW wasn't that far from having the plug pulled when they signed Hogan. They'd been losing money ever since Turner bought them, house show business sucked, they weren't strong TV at that time, and at a certain point suits stop wanting to blow money.

The degree to which business was a disaster before Hogan came in is almost shocking. During the Sting debate at Classics I did this statistical survey comparing dying days AWA (86) to 93 WCW. Note that Flair was back in WCW for a big chunk of 93 too.

 

A friend of mine was looking at this thread tonight and took issue with my claim that 1993 WCW drew at about the level of 1986 AWA. It was an off the cuff remark on my part, though when I reviewed the 93 WCW results the other night that was my initial thought. Still since I was challenged on it I decided to look a bit closer.

 

Using Clawmaster and Graham Cawthon's results I was able to confirm my off the cuff statement. Using the shows we have available attendance figures for the AWA in 86 drew 3303 people per show. WCW in 93 drew 1911 people per show.

 

Now this is EXTREMELY flawed. The AWA ran fewer shows and we are missing a lot of figures from them. For WCW I used the paid attendance figures where available and left off any show listed as all freebies (mostly shows from Center Stage). WCW also ran some small towns/venues that dragged down their average.

 

WCW had a couple more cards with 5k or more in attendance. For the AWA I left off a couple of joint shows where Crockett talent took up a third of the card. If I had included them the number would have been even and that's without figures from some shows that presumably could have been 5k or higher (for instance we are missing some Salt Lake City figures and that was the AWA's last "hot" town in many ways). WCW was also helped dramatically in this area by international touring, where the bulk of their 5k shows occurred. AWA actually had more 10k plus shows (3-2).

 

It's possible that if we adjusted for the much larger number of WCW cards run/with figures and the fact that they were running a couple of very small venues/towns with consistency they could close the gap on average attendance. It's also possible if we had all of the AWA attendance figures there average would go down. Would it be enough to make up the nearly 1400 per show gap? Maybe, maybe not.

 

The point in all of this? How much does "stardom" or "being on top" really matter, when you are AT BEST drawing numbers roughly identical to dying days AWA?

 

AWA Results via Claw

 

http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/10387-4.html

 

WCW results via Graham's site

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/wcw93.htm

 

Obviously the comments included pertain to Sting, but this really illustrates how important HOGAN was to WCW.

[Dylan Waco]

Why do you think Joe Stecher is usually included as kind of an after thought?

 

What about other short term box office stars like Danno O'Mahoney, Gus Sonnenberg, Bronko Nagurski, etc?

 

Why do the 1930's-1950's seem like they don't even exist when people make lists like this?

I'm fascinated by Stecher and in many ways it's a shame he lives in the shadow of Ed Lewis who is far more talked about. But I'm not nearly qualified to make an argument for him in a discussion like this.

 

I actually think it's obvious why people like O'Mahoney, Sonnenberg and Nagurski don't get mentioned much in these discussions - they weren't "legit" wrestlers. A lot of fans and historians who are interested in that period put a lot of stock in being able to shoot. As far as I know none of those guys could and Sonnenberg and O'Mahoney were both extremely vulnerable even though they were incredibly important figures. For my money Sonnenberg is a much better pick than several of the names that made Larry's list. Bronco too. O'Mahoney is more deserving than at least a few.

[Dylan Waco]

Loss - I am talking about Flair as a draw for JCP from 77-87 (as outlined above). The point about WCW is that it wouldn't have existed in the form we knew it from 89-96 (or indeed AT ALL) if Flair hadn't been drawing for JCP in that period, if JCP hadn't have been as big as it was by 88, if JCP had died before 88 and so on. I am not treating them as the same thing, far from it, but it is undeniable that one led from the other.

 

Go on then Dylan I'll let you give the punchline to your own question: what two things happened between 75 and 85?

Frankly I think Flair as a real touring champion - which oddly enough ended for the most part after 85 as well - is really a bigger plus in many, many ways than being the face of JCP in 85-88.

I think this is another string to his bow, and it's a considerable string for sure. But Flair was the face of JCP during the time he was touring champ as well, there can't be any doubt about that. You make it sound as if 85-88 is the only time we should consider Flair as the lynchpin of the company, that's not strictly true is it.

 

1. Cable TV

 

2. Most of the major offices either drying up rapidly or outright dying.

 

You can not talk bout expansion outside of this context.

 

Also my point in talking about Flair as a touring champ is that if I were pointing to an argument for him as a national drawing card it would be that period. Not the ill fated Crockett expansion.

[jdw]

Why do you think Joe Stecher is usually included as kind of an after thought?

 

Because he's stuck between The God Gotch and The God Lewis. Joe has long been thought of as an after through of those two. I think that's a bit of a mistake, but just the way things are.

 

I'm pleased he got on the list at all, and #30 relative to where others got placed isn't too bad. Better than not being on the list.

 

 

What about other short term box office stars like Danno O'Mahoney, Gus Sonnenberg, Bronko Nagurski, etc?

Danno drew a ton in a short period. I think one might reasonably argue him over Superstar in a similar concept: very short time, pretty significant impact which while perhaps not a massively positive one was a semi-logical one in the evolution of the business.

 

Sonnenberg did business, and was national. Could see the argument.

 

Bronko... one wishes his "peak" in pro wrestling was totally documented, and that we had good comparative data from there era as well (i.e. what he drew at his peak vs what others in the same cities drew in that period).

 

John

 

Why do the 1930's-1950's seem like they don't even exist when people make lists like this?

[jdw]

The degree to which business was a disaster before Hogan came in is almost shocking.

Two things on this:

 

#1 - totally agree

 

The number of different places, even in the core, where they drew insanely bad, was pretty jaw dropping in the early 90s. It wasn't just 1993. They drew for shit in a lot of places in 1989-91 as well before Flair left and in 1991-92 before he came back. There were things that drew "well", but it usually was only relative to the total shit they typically were drawing. 5K vs 1K. Then on occasion something like Flair-Luger or Flair-Terry would draw, but it was nothing like 1986 or remotely close.

 

Those charts that Dave would do that showed the monthly averages over the course of several years... they were bleak.

 

#2 - Hogan didn't pop the house show business

 

In major degree it was because he wasn't working that many house shows in 1994-95 for WCW. He was TV and PPV for the most part, with limited house shows.

 

I think you and I, and others, have often pointed to the uptick in WCW house show business being Flair-Savage after Starcade 1995. Now I wouldn't want anyone to run with it too far because the "uptick" wasn't the same as what they would draw in their peak in the Monday Night Wars era, which is when the company was really drawing well. Simply that we can point to the house show business for WCW starting to improve with that feud.

 

It's a bit like the WWF's house show business taking an uptick at that point after several years of general decline starting after Mania in 1992 when Hogan left. Shawn Fans liked to give Shawn credit for the uptick, but it actually started when the WWF rolled out the Bret-Taker-Diesel threeway feud on the house shows. It was the turning point in the house show business, though of course it would hit a much higher peak later in the decade with Austin & Co.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

When we were having the insanely long Sting HOF argument a year or so ago, I went through pretty much all WCW's 1992 results on Graham's site to see if Sting made any difference as company ace in the absence of Flair.

 

The 92 figures are legitimately shocking. Many house shows were lower than 1,000 people with stuff like Rude vs. Steamboat or Rude vs. Sting on top. Business wasn't just bad, it was through the floor.

 

 

----------

 

I would like to talk about 87 Crockett with jdw a bit more because I think the disappointing Starrcade result puts a different colour on the year. Also, from what I've read in Meltzer, Crockett's problem, even in 88, wasn't drawing or TURN OVER, it was making a profit. Their costs were loopy stupid. They mismanaged things to the extent that you can make the argument that Flair was drawing AND that the company was losing money hand over fist.

 

The end of JCP is a very different scenario to, for example, the end of AWA where there were playing tiny venues with a handful of people turning up. JCP were doing RELATIVELY OK in terms of audience numbers, buyrates, and so on, what they sucked at was business fundamentals. Like don't book one show in Charlotte and the next night in LA and the next night in Philly and fly the roster back and forth between those places. That's not Flair's fault is it?

 

JCP in 87-88 might be one of the few times in wrestling history when a company was drawing but still losing money.

 

By 89, after the Turner takeover, forget about it. The marketing promotion of the Flair-Steamboat feud might just be the worst marketing promotion of all time.

 

Bottomline here is: despite the fact that JCP were on the brink of bankruptcy, as bizarre as it sounds, there are still positives to draw.

[Dylan Waco]

When we were having the insanely long Sting HOF argument a year or so ago, I went through pretty much all WCW's 1992 results on Graham's site to see if Sting made any difference as company ace in the absence of Flair.

 

The 92 figures are legitimately shocking. Many house shows were lower than 1,000 people with stuff like Rude vs. Steamboat or Rude vs. Sting on top. Business wasn't just bad, it was through the floor.

 

 

----------

 

I would like to talk about 87 Crockett with jdw a bit more because I think the disappointing Starrcade result puts a different colour on the year. Also, from what I've read in Meltzer, Crockett's problem, even in 88, wasn't drawing or TURN OVER, it was making a profit. Their costs were loopy stupid. They mismanaged things to the extent that you can make the argument that Flair was drawing AND that the company was losing money hand over fist.

 

The end of JCP is a very different scenario to, for example, the end of AWA where there were playing tiny venues with a handful of people turning up. JCP were doing RELATIVELY OK in terms of audience numbers, buyrates, and so on, what they sucked at was business fundamentals. Like don't book one show in Charlotte and the next night in LA and the next night in Philly and fly the roster back and forth between those places. That's not Flair's fault is it?

 

JCP in 87-88 might be one of the few times in wrestling history when a company was drawing but still losing money.

 

By 89, after the Turner takeover, forget about it. The marketing promotion of the Flair-Steamboat feud might just be the worst marketing promotion of all time.

 

Bottomline here is: despite the fact that JCP were on the brink of bankruptcy, as bizarre as it sounds, there are still positives to draw.

 

This is an aside because I'm not going to look at Crockett numbers now, but ECW was drawing well (by their standards) when they went under.

[JerryvonKramer]

I also have another question: how often was Flair on Mid Atlantic TV doing promos in the 81-5 touring champ period? Was it only when he was in town for a match or did he pop in fairly regularly to say hi to Bob Caudle?

 

Obviously, I was 1-3 years old and living 4,000 miles away at the time, but my PERCEPTION has always been that it was the latter. That even though Flair was touring he was also kinda around that Mid Atlantic TV show even if he didn't always wrestle on it. Can anyone who watched that show or has seen lots of TV from that time verify?

[Dylan Waco]

The degree to which business was a disaster before Hogan came in is almost shocking.

Two things on this:

 

#1 - totally agree

 

The number of different places, even in the core, where they drew insanely bad, was pretty jaw dropping in the early 90s. It wasn't just 1993. They drew for shit in a lot of places in 1989-91 as well before Flair left and in 1991-92 before he came back. There were things that drew "well", but it usually was only relative to the total shit they typically were drawing. 5K vs 1K. Then on occasion something like Flair-Luger or Flair-Terry would draw, but it was nothing like 1986 or remotely close.

 

Those charts that Dave would do that showed the monthly averages over the course of several years... they were bleak.

In that same thread I talk a bit about how the Cornette talking point about SMW drawing better in some markets than WCW during that period - which sounds like complete bullshit - is actually true. They drew better in a lot of the smaller West Virgina towns, plus the TN tri-cities and Knoxville consistently. Their best domestic show of the year in 93 was in Asheville which was SMW country and had the RnR's v. Bodies on the undercard. Normally I would say that was just a coincidence but in this case? I wouldn't rule out that being a factor of note.

 

I looked at Flair opponents for that Sting thread too and what you see is a pattern of Sting lagging pretty far behind even there. GAB 90 did well, but not meaningfully better than the run up to that point with Luger (not better at all really). Shit falls off hard right around the time Sting gets his run and it doesn't really recover until what you talk about in point 2. It's pretty astounding and massive knock against Sting as any sort of HoF candidate or even near the star he is remembered as being.

 

This is probably a subject for a different thread and has been covered somewhat before, but the lesson of all that to me is that Flair not dropping the belt to Luger when he was hot was probably a major mistake and that if anyone was fucked by WCW booking, bullshit and politics in that period it wasn't Sting or Flair - it was Luger.

 

#2 - Hogan didn't pop the house show business

 

In major degree it was because he wasn't working that many house shows in 1994-95 for WCW. He was TV and PPV for the most part, with limited house shows.

 

I think you and I, and others, have often pointed to the uptick in WCW house show business being Flair-Savage after Starcade 1995. Now I wouldn't want anyone to run with it too far because the "uptick" wasn't the same as what they would draw in their peak in the Monday Night Wars era, which is when the company was really drawing well. Simply that we can point to the house show business for WCW starting to improve with that feud.

 

It's a bit like the WWF's house show business taking an uptick at that point after several years of general decline starting after Mania in 1992 when Hogan left. Shawn Fans liked to give Shawn credit for the uptick, but it actually started when the WWF rolled out the Bret-Taker-Diesel threeway feud on the house shows. It was the turning point in the house show business, though of course it would hit a much higher peak later in the decade with Austin & Co.

 

John

This is true and I should have made that distinction. Hogan is the catalyst that got business turning around. It doesn't happen without him and damn sure doesn't even approach the high it approached. But Flair-Savage was the first house show run of note to do anything since Luger-Flair in 90.

[KrisZ]

WCW in 1993 was running venues in Georgia that GA indy promotions would run at that same time.....think about that.

[Dylan Waco]

WCW in 1993 was running venues in Georgia that GA indy promotions would run at that same time.....think about that.

You could reasonably argue that Rose/Somers v. Midnight Rockers drew better than any feud in WCW that year. Think about that.

[jdw]

I would like to talk about 87 Crockett with jdw a bit more because I think the disappointing Starrcade result puts a different colour on the year. Also, from what I've read in Meltzer, Crockett's problem, even in 88, wasn't drawing or TURN OVER, it was making a profit. Their costs were loopy stupid. They mismanaged things to the extent that you can make the argument that Flair was drawing AND that the company was losing money hand over fist.

Drawing was down as well. Overall, they did not draw as well in 1987 as the did in 1986. For the entire year, I'm pretty sure it was across the board. There may be exceptions such as Chicago, but I think in that specific case that they didn't work Chicago much in 1986 until the end of the year.

 

Here's an example of a prime "expansion" city that JCP went into and did well:

 

Philadelphia, PA - Convention Hall - February 5, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - Feburuary 28, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - March 26, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - April 30, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - June 12, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - July 20, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - August 23, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - September 7, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - October 5, 1985

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - November 23, 1985 (12,500; sell out)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - December 28, 1985 (10,000)

 

I'm fuzzy on the history of JCP's "expansion" into Philly and Pitt in 1985. They went into it those cities well in advance of the rest of their expansion, some early cards tagged as JCP/AWA but looking extremely other than Slaughter and Backlund. In short order, they're pretty much JCP cards.

 

They are doing very well by the end of the year. It probably would be useful for someone to sift through the WON's to see if Dave has more detail on what JCP drew in 1985... though he also may not have had it. 1985 was a bit of a year in flux for him in terms of coverage and writing.

 

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - January 18, 1986 (8,500)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - February 1, 1986 (6,500)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - March 22, 1986 (10,000+)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - April 18, 1986 (7,000)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - May 4, 1986 (5,000 - Kris)

Philadelphia, PA - Veterans Stadium - July 1, 1986 (10,900)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - August 16, 1986 (7,000)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - September 6, 1986 (4,500)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - October 18, 1986 (7,000)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - November 1, 1986

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - December 13, 1986 (10,000)

 

The numbers are from Graham, with the exception of the one filled in with data Kris has in the Vince & Hogan vs The World. Some of the other numbers vary between what Graham and Kris has... not major with the exception of the Vet show.

 

Anyway... they're doing "good" in Philly relative to a lot of expansion. I want to say the November show did okay as well.

 

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - January 10, 1987 (11,000; sell out)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - February 21, 1987 (7,216)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - March 28, 1987 (3,916)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - April 25, 1987 (2,500)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - May 30, 1987 (5,500)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - June 27, 1987 (5,500)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - July 25, 1987 (8,500 - Kris)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - August 22, 1987 (4,500)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - September 5, 1987 (3,200) - note these dates look odd in proxmimity

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - October 14 or 24, 1987 (2,500 - Kris)

Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - December 26, 1987 (6,000 - Kris)

 

And there's the hammer.

 

They did very well in the post-Starcade shows in 12/86 and 1/87, dropped down to about their "average" for the Flair-Barry in 2/87, then the bottom fell out for most of the rest of the year with the exception of the Bash show in 8/87.

 

1988 actually has some better numbers here and there, for example when Flair-Sting and Flair-Lex. But there also were some poor ones.

 

1987 just wasn't a great year. I went to shows here in LA at the time... and it as clear from the crowds that expansion wasn't going awesome across the country.

 

 

The end of JCP is a very different scenario to, for example, the end of AWA where there were playing tiny venues with a handful of people turning up. JCP were doing RELATIVELY OK in terms of audience numbers, buyrates, and so on, what they sucked at was business fundamentals.

No. Business wasn't strong as well as the other things being screwed up. They averaged 7640 in the 1986 in the 10 Philly shows I have attendance listed for. Kick out the 1/87 show (which was a reflection on 1986 success) and the 7/87 show (the loaded up Bash tour), and they averaged 4537 fans. That's a 3100 drop, 41%.

 

 

Like don't book one show in Charlotte and the next night in LA and the next night in Philly and fly the roster back and forth between those places. That's not Flair's fault is it?

If it's drawing, it pays for itself. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

 

JCP in 87-88 might be one of the few times in wrestling history when a company was drawing but still losing money.

Drawing is a relative term. Business was down in 1987. Even Cornette talked about it in his book.

 

By 89, after the Turner takeover, forget about it. The marketing promotion of the Flair-Steamboat feud might just be the worst marketing promotion of all time.

Far from the worst. Try to recall the marking promotion of the Flair-Hayes feud at the end of 1987. And that one hardly is the worst. Try to recall the Flair-Armstrong marketing.

 

 

Bottomline here is: despite the fact that JCP were on the brink of bankruptcy, as bizarre as it sounds, there are still positives to draw.

Of course there were. They had better matches than the WWF. Other than that... there were mostly negatives.

[Childs]

It's interesting that the numbers were so bad, because it's not like the product was uniformly shitty. The yearbooks have certainly reiterated that WCW ran plenty of good TV matches and strong PPVs from 1990-94. I guess it shows how unimportant that is when the really big picture stuff isn't clicking.

[jdw]

I also have another question: how often was Flair on Mid Atlantic TV doing promos in the 81-5 touring champ period? Was it only when he was in town for a match or did he pop in fairly regularly to say hi to Bob Caudle?

 

Obviously, I was 1-3 years old and living 4,000 miles away at the time, but my PERCEPTION has always been that it was the latter. That even though Flair was touring he was also kinda around that Mid Atlantic TV show even if he didn't always wrestle on it. Can anyone who watched that show or has seen lots of TV from that time verify?

How exactly was Flair popping up on Mid-Atlantic TV all the time in 1984 to say "hi" when he was touring around the country? He was a touring champ. His job was to promote his matches. It was a bitch of a schedule.

 

John

[evilclown]

I actually think it's obvious why people like O'Mahoney, Sonnenberg and Nagurski don't get mentioned much in these discussions - they weren't "legit" wrestlers. A lot of fans and historians who are interested in that period put a lot of stock in being able to shoot.

I think there is truth to that. Obviously I've had to talk about it quite a bit with a variety of wrestling interviewers and old timers. It's such obvious self loathing. Who could really wrestle? Who cares? The business wasn't about that.

 

I'm often asked about whether Hulk Hogan was a tough guy. People looking for a snarky answer I suspect. But come on—he was 6'5" and a jacked 330. I'm guessing he was a handful and is to this day. I sure wouldn't want to test him.

[Dylan Waco]

I actually think it's obvious why people like O'Mahoney, Sonnenberg and Nagurski don't get mentioned much in these discussions - they weren't "legit" wrestlers. A lot of fans and historians who are interested in that period put a lot of stock in being able to shoot.

I think there is truth to that. Obviously I've had to talk about it quite a bit with a variety of wrestling interviewers and old timers. It's such obvious self loathing. Who could really wrestle? Who cares? The business wasn't about that.

 

I'm often asked about whether Hulk Hogan was a tough guy. People looking for a snarky answer I suspect. But come on—he was 6'5" and a jacked 330. I'm guessing he was a handful and is to this day. I sure wouldn't want to test him.

 

I think it's hilarious that people ask that about Hogan. What a fucking bizarre question in this day and age.

 

On the same token when I was a kid I visited Minnesota for several weeks. I was in the Northern part of the state visiting my grandparents and great grandparents (incidentally family legend is that Thesz "hooked" someone in my great grandfather's place and broke his arm - I suspect this is bullshit lore though my great grandfather did know Verne fairly well and it's probable that Lou was actually a visitor at his home). On that side of my family Nagurski was something of a tough guy legend, with the story of him knocking the bricks out of the wall behind the University of Minnesota endzone being retold like it was a family legend. This was the Summer of 1990 and my great grandfather, grandfather, uncle and father still talked up Bronco all the time. Anyhow I was at this major festival that spanned several lake towns in Minnesota. Lots of Paul Bunyon worship and drunk Scandinavians and Germans as you would expect. I was with my grand dad and we got into a conversation with a group of men that ranged in age from about 25-60. The conversation was best athlete in Minnesota and it was amazing because everyone of them to a man was talking about how Bronco was the greatest and toughest ever almost on cue. I said something later about it to my grand dad and how I couldn't believe so many people knew who Bronco was. He stopped a guy on the street by a table hawking books and Native-American trinkets. He asked this random dude - who was middle age and very likely part Indian - "Who is the toughest Minnesotan in history?" About five-tenths of a second later the reply was "Bronco Nagurski."

[JerryvonKramer]

My wife met Hulk Hogan last year and said he's a very big guy even now. There's a photo of her and and her colleagues with him and most people there are barely upto his shoulder. He's not just big, he's fucking massive in terms of normal, every day people.

[Johnny Sorrow]

As someone who was going to a lot of Philly shows between 85 and 87, it's also interesting to note what kind of numbers that JCP pulled when WWF was running the same night at the Spectrum.

[KrisZ]

Flair was around in 1984 but not a lot.

 

He only worked 7 Greensboro cards which was about 40-50% of the shows because I don't have complete data.

 

Regarding the decline of JCP....you can't pinpoint one single thing that caused them to go downhill as there was many problems that started to mount up as the year went on. Magnum getting in the car crash was the first major strike as they had to turn Nikita which worked though in a big way as the fans went nuts for him and the argument can definitely be made that he should've beat Flair at Starrcade 86 for the title.

 

Atlanta itself was floundering in 1987 and it had to be embarrassing for the UWF who was just bought out by JCP but not made official yet drew double (8,500 > 4,200) that JCP was drawing. It was the UWF debut and had heavy promotion by Pedicino's TV and they blew JCP out of the water. That was a signal and it didn't help that they returned 3 weeks later with Flair/Jimmy Garvin on top and drew 3,200. Now they did go back up on a month later with Horsemen vs. Freebirds on top which was a HUGE deal locally drawing 7,000 and then hit a home run with GAB & War Games the next month with 15,000 then came back on my 8th birthday drawing 14,100 with Flair/Ronnie on top. The crowds was still looking good on the next show with Dusty/Roadies vs. Arn/Tully/Luger on top drawing 9,000 but the bottom completely fell out the next show with RnR vs. Arn/Tully on top drawing 2,300.

 

The next show was a complete embarassment as they ran Tully vs. Morton as the main event in a lumberjack match drawing 1,800 fans. They sent all their big talent to Detroit which they were trying to conquer from Vince and with Flair/Luger vs. Dusty/Garvin on top they drew only 1,000 fans which was 7,000 less than their debut show the month before which was the Flair/Garvin title change. They continued to sputter towards the end of the year but on Christmas night they drew 8,000 for Flair vs. Windham and the week later on New Years Day they drew 12,700 for Flair vs. Hayes which was again a big deal locally. The next month Flair/Sting drew 13,000 which was a huge number as Sting was really getting hot at the time but the attendance dropped in half for the next show with Ole/Dusty/Luger vs. Arn/Tully/Ric as the main event. It would really get bad in April as Flair/Tully vs. Luger/Sting and Roadies/Powers of Pain in a cage only drew 1,400 but it would pick back up with Doc getting a shot Flair the next month for 7,300. Flair/Luger drew really big in August bringing out 13,700 and then on Thanksgiving night Luger/Sting vs. Roadies drew 8,000 in a rare big draw for a tag match but it was Turkey Day which was tradition and that was the first Turner promoted Omni show.

 

Let's look at Greensboro

 

Flair vs. Nikita on 2/13/87 drew 13,000 which showed that Nikita was very hot as a babyface. Flair/Dusty would come back in April drawing 11,121 but to show a pattern two weeks later Flair/Jimmy Garvin only drew 7,829. RnR vs. Flair/Luger was the main event on 6/21 and it drew 4,500 so we are seeing another pattern developing here. To Jimmy's credit though and maybe to Luger/Nikita the 7/11 show drew 10,532 as Flair fought Jimmy in a cage and Lex beat Nikita for the US title. 8/22 saw Flair face Ronnie and they only drew 6,714 which was showing that Ronnie's drawing power had faded because it was a year earlier they were selling out Greensboro. RnR vs. Arn/Tully then headlined the next show on 9/12 drawing poorly at 3,725 and then the next show on 9/27 saw a double main with Ronnie defending the NWA title against Big Bubba and the Roadies/Super Powers vs. Horsemen only draw 5,117. Ronnie/Flair came back on 10/10 only drawing 3,416 so Ronnie as champ is complete failure.

 

The next show on 10/25 was co-mained by Tully/Flair/Luger vs. Nikita/RnR and Dusty vs. Hiro Matsuda and the woes continued at 3,721. Then came the big debacle of moving Starrcade out of Greensboro/Atlanta and to Chicago which was a bomb and basically killed Greensboro but to Michael Hayes' credit him and Flair drew 12,457 on 1/2 so in a span of two days they drew 25,157 in the two key towns of the promotion. Michael Hayes was a draw at the time no doubt. The next month they came with a cage match with Ole/Dusty/Luger vs. Arn/Tully/Flair and drew another big house in 11,771 so January/February were strong months in the key towns which coming off Starrcade's failure is very interesting.

 

Next show was Clash #1 and it only drew 6,000 which made sense as people could watch the show at home on live TV which was still rare at that time. The next month saw the finals of Crockett Cup 88 and they drew 6,300 so they are having half houses on two very big shows. Doc vs. Flair didn't do so hot in May as they only drew 4,000 and even War Games didn't do too much in July as they only drew 6,632. Dusty/Luger vs. Flair/Al Perez came back in August and only drew 6,000 then came a vital blow to the promotion.

 

Flair/Luger which was a very hot feud main evented on 9/11 and only drew 2,500. Very very telling. The rematch the next month only bumped it up to 4,000 and the next show on 11/26 was the first Turner show in town and with Luger/Sting vs. Roadies they drew 7,500 which was the best number in 9 months.

 

The patterns we see here are

 

Jimmy Garvin wasn't a draw

 

Tag teams in the main event weren't draws

 

Flair being injured and forced to work in teams wasn't a draw

 

Ronnie Garvin as champion wasn't a draw

 

Going to Detroit was a huge blow as they had some success in Chicago but Detroit was brutal after the first show.

 

Michael Hayes was a draw especially in Atlanta & Greensboro.

 

Sting & Luger both were hot when they booked great.

[Dylan Waco]

Had no clue Hayes was that strong during that period.

 

Agree on Detroit. Detroit was a gamble for anyone really because when wrestling was killed off there it was REALLY killed off there. One of the most notable cases of a town dying you can possibly think of as it collapsed from being one of the hottest offices in the country, to being "can't draw flies" town in relatively short order. I always thought Verne could have and possibly should have made a run at it. But then I see stuff like this and I don't know. The WWF opened it up and got the first sellout there in over a decade with Studd/Patera v. Andre/JYD and Tito/Greg up top which I think says a lot about both of those feuds.