Larry Matysik's 50 Greatest Professional Wrestlers

[KrisZ]

The thing about Jimmy Garvin was fans didn't really want to buy him as a babyface much less a #1 contender....you gotta remember before he was in the feud with Flair he was doing jobs in the low midcard to Brad Armstrong.

 

Hayes had the star power and the angle was really well done with Flair on TV so it worked.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The thing about Jimmy Garvin was fans didn't really want to buy him as a babyface much less a #1 contender....you gotta remember before he was in the feud with Flair he was doing jobs in the low midcard to Brad Armstrong.

The Garvin face turn against Cornette had to have raised his value a bit, though. People went nuts for him when he turned to get revenge for his brother.

[goodhelmet]

The MX feud may have raised him from jobbing to Brad Armstrong but when Ron "healed", Ron was still regularly teaming with Windham, not Jimmy. Then when they started the Precious-Flair angle, Dusty cut Jimmy's balls off on national TV in that angle.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The MX feud may have raised him from jobbing to Brad Armstrong but when Ron "healed", Ron was still regularly teaming with Windham, not Jimmy. Then when they started the Precious-Flair angle, Dusty cut Jimmy's balls off on national TV in that angle.

That's why I said "a bit".

[JerryvonKramer]

This is top stuff Kris.

[rovert]

Todd Martin went after this book very hard on his radio show with Alvarez today. Echoing much of the same criticisms listed here: dismissals of Lawler and Rey and his bias towards Wrestling of the 50-70s and bias against modern performers. Poorly researched, poor argued and biased was the summation of Todd's review of it. The only thing he liked were the bios Larry wrote.

 

It is at the last 10 or so minutes of the podcast.

[khawk20]

On the same token when I was a kid I visited Minnesota for several weeks. I was in the Northern part of the state visiting my grandparents and great grandparents (incidentally family legend is that Thesz "hooked" someone in my great grandfather's place and broke his arm - I suspect this is bullshit lore though my great grandfather did know Verne fairly well and it's probable that Lou was actually a visitor at his home). On that side of my family Nagurski was something of a tough guy legend, with the story of him knocking the bricks out of the wall behind the University of Minnesota endzone being retold like it was a family legend. This was the Summer of 1990 and my great grandfather, grandfather, uncle and father still talked up Bronco all the time. Anyhow I was at this major festival that spanned several lake towns in Minnesota. Lots of Paul Bunyon worship and drunk Scandinavians and Germans as you would expect. I was with my grand dad and we got into a conversation with a group of men that ranged in age from about 25-60. The conversation was best athlete in Minnesota and it was amazing because everyone of them to a man was talking about how Bronco was the greatest and toughest ever almost on cue. I said something later about it to my grand dad and how I couldn't believe so many people knew who Bronco was. He stopped a guy on the street by a table hawking books and Native-American trinkets. He asked this random dude - who was middle age and very likely part Indian - "Who is the toughest Minnesotan in history?" About five-tenths of a second later the reply was "Bronco Nagurski."

Awesome.

[Eduardo]

Todd Martin went after this book very hard on his radio show with Alvarez today. Echoing much of the same criticisms listed here: dismissals of Lawler and Rey and his bias towards Wrestling of the 50-70s and bias against modern performers. Poorly researched, poor argued and biased was the summation of Todd's review of it. The only thing he liked were the bios Larry wrote.

I never listen to Martin (other than when he shows up on Sherdog round-tables) but I took a listen after your post. I was glad to hear his spirited defense of Rey Misterio Jr. Haven't read the book, but that was a good review from Martin.

[jdw]

Michael Hayes was a draw especially in Atlanta & Greensboro.

My recollection is that the New Years cards where with massive discount tickets for kids... like in the range of $1. The gates for those weren't close to what that same number of fans would draw at a normal house.

 

I don't think Hayes was a draw at all around the horn after Starcade 1987. If he was, they would have run longer with it and not gone to Sting. Granted... Dusty didn't have any love for Hayes. But business was shit, and if they suddenly had a magic face that was drawing 7500 - 12000 per show, they would have milked it because they were desperate for something... ANYTHING to draw.

 

The other thing to keep in mind when looking at cards: The Bash Tour. There usually was a spike up in July for the Bash cards in each town as they ran loaded up cards. The Bash could drag on into August in some cities... I seem to recall we got ours in August in either 1987 or 1988. So a part of the July drawing power needs to be given to the Bash.

 

John

[jdw]

The thing about Jimmy Garvin was fans didn't really want to buy him as a babyface much less a #1 contender....you gotta remember before he was in the feud with Flair he was doing jobs in the low midcard to Brad Armstrong.

 

Hayes had the star power and the angle was really well done with Flair on TV so it worked.

I barely remember the Flair-Hayes angle. Was there more than this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90GiUssfOVY

 

That's kind of standard stuff. It's not really memorable like Flair-Morton, or even the Flair-Ronnie out of the Date With Precious (i.e. "Can I watch?"). Or the Horsemen breaking Dusty's hand... and ankle earlier.

 

Sting was in January, and was kind of memorable as the "Party Crasher" as a kid sticking his snotty nose into Horsemen Business. Hayes... felt more pedestrian.

 

I'd actually looked forward to a Birds vs Horsemen feud, but they never did anything with it and by this point Hayes was just kind of sticking around.

[KrisZ]

These are known challenges from Hayes to Flair and the differences between shows. Now some of these towns didn't have shows a month before or after and if I didn't have the attendance I didn't list it. Hayes held his own here.

 

Miami

 

12/2/87 = Flair vs. Hayes = 2,000

 

Baltimore

 

12/12/87 = Flair vs. Hayes = 4,000

 

Charlotte

 

12/25/87 = Flair vs. Hayes

 

Norfolk

 

12/27/87 = Flair vs. Hayes

 

Charleston, WV

 

12/27/87 = Flair vs. Hayes

 

Atlanta

 

12/25/87 = Flair vs. Windham = 8,000

1/1/88 = Flair vs. Hayes = 12,700

2/13/88 = Flair vs. Sting = 13,000

 

Greensboro

 

12/12/87 = Flair vs. Sting = 6,000

1/2/88 = Flair vs. Hayes = 12,457

2/20/88 = Super Powers vs. MX in a cage = ?

 

Columbus, OH

 

1/10/88 = Flair vs. Hayes = 2,300

 

Richmond

 

12/26/87 = Flair vs. Windham = 7,000

1/15/88 = Flair vs. Hayes = 6,500

2/19/88 = Ole/Luger vs. Arn/Tully in a cage = 9,000

 

Philadelphia

 

12/28/87 = Flair vs. Sting = 6,000

1/16/88 = Flair vs. Hayes = 7,500

2/13/88 = Dusty/LOD vs. Koloff/Powers of Pain = 6,000

 

St. Louis

 

12/28/87 = Flair vs. Sting = 4,000

1/19/88 = Flair vs. Hayes in a cage = 5,900

3/6/88 = Flair vs. Sting = 5,700

 

Inglewood Forum

 

11/16/87 = Flair/Luger vs. Ronnie Garvin/Dr. Death = 1,500

1/21/88 = Flair vs. Hayes = 3,000

[KrisZ]

The thing about Jimmy Garvin was fans didn't really want to buy him as a babyface much less a #1 contender....you gotta remember before he was in the feud with Flair he was doing jobs in the low midcard to Brad Armstrong.

 

Hayes had the star power and the angle was really well done with Flair on TV so it worked.

I barely remember the Flair-Hayes angle. Was there more than this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90GiUssfOVY

 

That's kind of standard stuff. It's not really memorable like Flair-Morton, or even the Flair-Ronnie out of the Date With Precious (i.e. "Can I watch?"). Or the Horsemen breaking Dusty's hand... and ankle earlier.

 

Sting was in January, and was kind of memorable as the "Party Crasher" as a kid sticking his snotty nose into Horsemen Business. Hayes... felt more pedestrian.

 

I'd actually looked forward to a Birds vs Horsemen feud, but they never did anything with it and by this point Hayes was just kind of sticking around.

 

They did a time limit deal with Flair on TBS where TV time ran out right as Hayes had Flair pinned where in actuality the match went to a draw. Hayes was cutting great promos on all the TV to set it up and we don't have the local promos but Hayes was as hot as anyone in that time span.

[BrickHithouse]

Atlanta

 

12/25/87 = Flair vs. Windham = 8,000

1/1/88 = Flair vs. Hayes = 12,700

Two shows in the same city in a week, that's pretty impressive attendance.

[jdw]

The Sting matches in December, and prior to the TV angle, are a tough come for Sting: it's a match rolled out generally cold.

[KrisZ]

Sting wasn't as cold as you think these were the shows I have on record right before his matches with Flair

 

Greensboro

 

11/26/87 = Starrcade 87 closed circuit and Kevin Sullivan vs. Ivan as main event = 6,000

 

Philadelphia

 

10/24/87 - Flair/Nikita = 2,500

 

St. Louis

 

10/9/87 = Ronnie Garvin/Flair = 2,300

[jdw]

By cold I mean that the big angle ran in January. The December match were rolled out "cold" before the angle, rather than the ones after the "hot" angle.

 

Not that the match drew crap.

 

John

[rovert]

Apparently Larry will address criticisms tomorrow with Bryan and Dave. Bryan said they might play audio clips of Todd Martin's review on that show. Trainwreck potential.

[Dylan Waco]

Apparently Larry will address criticisms tomorrow with Bryan and Dave. Bryan said they might play audio clips of Todd Martin's review on that show. Trainwreck potential.

Yohe wrote up a really scathing criticism of the book's sections of Stetcher and Lewis at Classics.

[evilclown]

Apparently Larry will address criticisms tomorrow with Bryan and Dave. Bryan said they might play audio clips of Todd Martin's review on that show. Trainwreck potential.

Yohe wrote up a really scathing criticism of the book's sections of Stetcher and Lewis at Classics.

 

Can you link that please?

[Dylan Waco]

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...0542;p=1#000027

[evilclown]

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...0542;p=1#000027

Thanks. Now I'm afraid to check if Yohe read Shooters....

[jdw]

I bought him a copy. He was uncomfortable with his name popping up so much that I don't know if he finished it. I've kept pushing, and indicated your usage of his quote was really well done. :/

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I'm listening to Matysik's show now. It's surprising to see Matysik dismiss Lawler as a top 100, much less a top 50. It's obvious to me that Matysik's criteria for "believability" to be his way to fudge up some of his favorites. Meltzer follows him and says "believability" is the key component to drawing. That's a silly criteria. For one, that he's rating superstars, taking Meltzer's premise seriously, "believability" is implicit. Second, there are so many counterexamples to that. Think about the Rock. I can't think of a less believable top guy in my life time who actually drew money; the People's Elbow is easily the stupidest move I've ever seen. How believable are most wrestlers? As much as I respect Dave Meltzer's view, it's odd to me that he projects his shoot fetish into a sport that is, by its very nature, worked, leading me to ask "Why have it be worked if you think top guys draw for being shooters?" Dan Severn was seen as the most legitimate guy on the WWF roster in 1998, but it's doubtful he would have drawn money in the long-term. Lesnar was believable and didn't draw well until his UFC stint. Kurt Angle might have been the most believable, and he didn't draw better than the Rock, who was always a shuck and jive type main eventer. It's about as dumb of a criteria as counting the number of days a top guy was world champion.

 

The radio show was disappointing and unorganized, really. For most of it, he rambled like an old geezer. And he kept on talking about Vince McMahon and his deal with St. Louis, where it's not hard to detect his bitterness 30 years after the fact.

 

Concerning Lawler, I might have wrongly read between the lines, but he struck me as knocking down Lawler to spite WWE. If true, that's really petty of him. On what planet is Bruiser Brody even top 50 when not factoring his run in Japan? You can't just arbitrarily add in a Japanese run if he doesn't consider Stan Hansen.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm listening to that show now and while there is definitely a rambling old geezer quality to proceedings -- to the point where I jump every time Alvarez butts in -- I do think Matysik and Meltzer do an effective job of defending against the "he looked after the St. Louis guys" talking point. That's if what they are saying is true though. Was St. Louis really "the Harvard" of wrestling towns? I've never heard that before from anyone.

 

EDIT: He also flatly admits Randy Orton was a mistake and regrets it.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not saying this to be mean, but you've NEVER heard that ST. Louis was considered one of the wrestling capitals of the world Jerry? I find that to be very odd.

 

I don't think the criticism of Larry has been "he looked after St. Louis guys" as much as it is "it's wrestling history told through St. Louis eyes." Yohe's post I linked to illustrates that very well. Larry has a perspective that runs everything through St. Louis. It's the reason it's impossible for him to give credit to Lawler as anything other than a "small time" guy even though Lawler headlined an 11k seat arena every Monday for the better part of twenty years, with the majority of that run being financially strong. It's the reason he thinks Rey is a marginal candidate for consideration at best. It's the reason The Crusher and The Sheik aren't in the book. Sam didn't like the wild man brawling act, he wouldn't have booked a small Mexican in a mask and Lawler was never a star there.

 

St. Louis was a key wrestling town, but Sam had major biases and a very specific idea of what worked and didn't work in wrestling. For St. Louis I think it's fair to say it definitely worked. But when you have one town to run and have access to most of the top stars you can operate that way. You can't do that when you have an actual territory with a loop.