1980s Wrestling Party #14

[Johnny Sorrow]

According to Wiki Doug Somers is 62 years old. If anyone wants to find him and ask him, I'd be open to what he said. Shawn or Marty less so.

I'd imagine they don't even remember anything about the matches, besides that they happened.

 

 

Buddy is dead now, but he's talked in great detail about the matches in public forums more than once.

 

Well yeah. Of the four only Buddy would be the guy who I'd think actually would have reflected on them. Didn't he collect tons and tons of footage? I remember hearing that on a F4W show some years back.

Shawn and Marty don't strike me as guys who would give two thoughts about the matches and probably remember parties and road stories more than how they decided to format a match. And Somers strikes me as a guy who's probably brain dead from meth by this point.

[Dylan Waco]

How in the hell do some of you have time to watch these sets multiple times?

I haven't done that with the AWA Set, but I've watched every match on the set at least twice with the nomination process and most matches three times or more becasue of the way that process works (often times you have the same matches on multiple discs and don't realize it's the same match til you are minutes into it). I did that with NJPW and really I don't think it's all that hard, because the voting time is massive. I can be a pretty busy guy, but if you average one match every two days you will have more than enough time to get through the set once. That's a really low standard

[Dylan Waco]

According to Wiki Doug Somers is 62 years old. If anyone wants to find him and ask him, I'd be open to what he said. Shawn or Marty less so.

I'd imagine they don't even remember anything about the matches, besides that they happened.

 

 

Buddy is dead now, but he's talked in great detail about the matches in public forums more than once.

 

Well yeah. Of the four only Buddy would be the guy who I'd think actually would have reflected on them. Didn't he collect tons and tons of footage? I remember hearing that on a F4W show some years back.

Shawn and Marty don't strike me as guys who would give two thoughts about the matches and probably remember parties and road stories more than how they decided to format a match. And Somers strikes me as a guy who's probably brain dead from meth by this point.

 

 

Buddy is the source for almost all the Portland footage, though he collected it in the sense that it sat in his garage and he was going to trash it before Rich Patterson and others convinced him not to.

 

Shawn has talked a bit about the feud in the past as I recall, though I don't remember the details.

[Matt D]

Shawn says pretty stupid things about the MSG Demos match. Just saying.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I'd imagine Marty's recollections would sound something like, "Aw yeah, man. We tore the house down every night with them guys. Stole the show every night. That Somers, I remember this one time I walked in on him in the showers with two of the nastiest lookin' rats I ever did see, and hey says, "Hey Marty, you want some of this?" and I said no way, man..and he says "More for the Pretty Boy, then. Yeah, those were some great matches."

[Dylan Waco]

I'd imagine Marty's recollections would sound something like, "Aw yeah, man. We tore the house down every night with them guys. Stole the show every night. That Somers, I remember this one time I walked in on him in the showers with two of the nastiest lookin' rats I ever did see, and hey says, "Hey Marty, you want some of this?" and I said no way, man..and he says "More for the Pretty Boy, then. Yeah, those were some great matches."

Wait til you see Pretty Boy Chuck Sims. Just wait. I love Pat and Bertrand's Montreal book, but nothing tells you how far the might Montreal has fallen more than the fact that one of the top heels was a guy working a Doug Somers tribute gimmick

[goodhelmet]

Yeah, for me the difference is that I don' t think these matches need over-analyzing. I commit to the process, if I feel I missed something, I can go back and watch it. However, I am confident enough in my evaluation of matches that I don't feel the need to watch the set 2-3-4 times before I submit a ballot. For the record, this was the 2nd time I watched both cage matches. My opinion didn't change. In fact, my opinion hasn't changed on review of any of the matches I took part in the nominating process.

 

http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/topic/6...on-von-raschke/

 

Thread includes your public apology for the match. This was your original review

 

Freebirds vs. Crusher & Baron Von Rashke

- The Birds were so good in this bumping and selling huge for these two slow, old farts. I think the High Flyers match may have been better but this was more fun to watch. Baron makes an unlikely Face in Peril but it worked, especially knowing that the Birds were going to put Crusher over big on the hot tag. Speaking of Crusher, my God, he should have been stuck doing autograph siginings at this point. So, so bad. If the Flyers match goes on then this definitely goes on. It will be interesting to see how people compare the two.

 

It's not glowing praise, but you felt the need to apologize for it and I think it would be fair to say that your opinion changed at least some.

 

This isn't a gotcha post either. My point is that it's probable that this is going to happen to some degree with most people, especially if you are involved in a project like this. For example I liked Hansen v. Blackwell WAYYYYYYY better on rewatch than originally.

 

This is true. I was thinking of the more contentious matches or the matches I already had a positive opinion on. I would also like to point out that I didn't like the FLyers match on rewatch either. Also, that was very early in the nominating process where I thought we would be lucky to get 100 matches for AWA. Good point.

[goodhelmet]

I'd imagine Marty's recollections would sound something like, "Aw yeah, man. We tore the house down every night with them guys. Stole the show every night. That Somers, I remember this one time I walked in on him in the showers with two of the nastiest lookin' rats I ever did see, and hey says, "Hey Marty, you want some of this?" and I said no way, man..and he says "More for the Pretty Boy, then. Yeah, those were some great matches."

I imagine Doug Somers recollection would be the exact same in reference to the matches... not the rats.

[soup23]

Best top to bottom show as far as quality goes as I only see Leon White vs. Zuhkov as a below 100 type match. One thing I like about the Johnny P shows is that a lot of discussion devolves into tastes and structure in wrestling which I find interesting since its differences among very "high" level wrestling fans. I am saddened we didn't get to his talk on the Portland footage though since I love hearing stuff about that. Kudos to Johnny's Prince rendition at the end to.

 

Col. Debeers vs. Jerry Blackwell (Ladder Match) (11/27/86) - Good match and really neat to see Blackwell scale up the ladder. Some of the ladder spots were brutal. Match ending kind of abruptly was a bummer and doesn't propel this above mid range for me.

Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (11/27/86) - Larry vs. Nick is 2 for 2 in my book and a feud I really am starting to love. This fleshed out some of the themes of the sprint match but still cut a good pace and packed a lot into the time allotted.

Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86) - Really great match that the biggest detraction against is that it came after the one hour draw in our viewing. Mat work was really good but not some of the best I have seen. I did like the tempers flaring more quickly this time.

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86) - Here we go. I try to avoid opinions on these matches but this one was unavoidable so I knew where everyone stood going in. After watching the match, I feel more closely aligned with Dylan. I see Matt D's criticisms as mostly valid except for the cage one. I thought the cage was used fine as a battering ram weapon and not allowing Sherri to interfere. The shine sequence does take away a good bit of the excitement for the second half for me. I sort of compared it to the Final Conflict cage match. That match had an extended shine sequence that took me out of that match as well. I still think this match is great and will be in my top 50, but I didn't see it as a sure fire top 10 pick. I also think structure shouldnt be scoffed at. I think me and Parv have made it pretty clear in our podcast that we are both not too big of fans of the babyfaces firing off on the heels and making them look foolish for the majority of a "competitive" match. That happened here.

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87) - Now we are talking. Slower pace but retained intensity of the Christmas match. Many more shifts in momentum and the heels on top. It still had the crazy bumps and the Rockers bleeding like mad. I thought Shawn's strikes looked much better in this match as well. I was still annoyed by Shawn picking up his opponent from the three count. Finish was fun with the double team ramming of Somers. This is #5 for me currently.

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/27/87) - I may be the high man on this as I have it in my top ten and think its the best straight tag on the set so far. Wonderful job that really built to the climax of the faces getting their just due. Finish was a wonderful barrage of action to after the methodical dismantling that Rose and Somers did throughout the match. One of the best tag feuds of the 80's with 3 top 10 matches for me so far and nothing between these two teams will be below 75 in my ballot.

Leon White vs. Boris Zuhkov (2/21/87) - Match was going good until Vader started slowing the pace down and it sputtered to the bad finish. I still enjoy seeing babyface Vader revving up the crowd but this will probably be bottom 20 and is kind of the baseline for matches I would classify as "good" on the set.

[JerryvonKramer]

Before starting this next batch, I just want to note that Prince is awesome. I don't think Prince gets the props he deserves from the hipster kids. They love the 80s but the sort of 80s they love is snyth-driven electronica, stuff like Depeche Mode. Now, I've got a lot of time for Depeche Mode, but where's the love for Prince you posing Shoreditch wankers?

 

Anyway ...

 

Debeers vs. Blackwell

 

Now, already, how the hell are these two going to have a ladder match? Or rather, how the hell is injured, diabetic Jerry Blackwell going to have one?

 

Blackwell is really fat here.

 

 

This is cool.

 

The shots into this ladder are really nasty. Splash by Blackwell on the floor outside is amazing.

 

Big slam by Blackwell.

 

Ouch! Debeers's face smashed on the edge of the bottom of the ladder.

 

Holy shit! Blackwell is climging the ladder. What the flying fuck! Massive bump from Debeers.

 

I really enjoyed this for what it was; should do well.

 

B+

[JerryvonKramer]

Larry Z vs. Bock

 

Really enjoyed the last sub-5 minutes match, this could be great. Bock is nailing Zybysko here. Love watching Larry's head bounce off the turnbuckle. Piledriver!

 

Still think Zybysko is like Bockwinkel Jr.

 

Bock smashes Zybysko on the table. His selling is great. Bock's brutality is amped to the max.

 

Zybysko uses the bell to nail Bock now! This has been high quality.

 

This ref looks like a mini-Andre!

 

I REALLY enjoyed this. Excellent match. Possible top 10 contender.

 

A-

[JerryvonKramer]

Bock vs. Hennig

 

Not sure what to do with this one. I feel like it's being unreasonably penalised for coming after the hour long.

 

Forgive the analogy, but why can't this be the Wrestlewar to the hour-long's Clash 6?

 

Thought the work was really strong, and Hennig's really growing as a character now.

 

I disagree with Will, think this one is way up there and should finish top 10 for me.

 

A

[JerryvonKramer]

Rose/ Somers vs. Rockers (cage)

 

So is Billy Robinson just a full time ref now?

 

Shawn Michaels's punches are great in 1986.

 

This seems to be mirroring the structure of Final Conflict so far with the super-extended shine sequence to start with Somers as Don Kernodle.

 

I don't like the arrogance with which Michaels is working this. He's done it twice now, throwing the heels to the floor with a little push as if a feather would send them over. I'm really not sure about that. If that was Road Warrior Hawk EVERYONE would be on his case for it. Almost like he's treated them like jobbers.

 

Rose is in, finally a transition now? No, Jannetty kip up.

 

Rockers are both working with a lot of brutality here, but they haven't given the heels anything at all yet. Still time though.

 

I really have a problem with the way Shawn Michaels is working this match. He's far far too cocky and heelish. Spitting and nonchalently punching Somers as if he's a piece of shit. Not keen on that at all.

 

Finally, Rose comes back. There, we get a transition. STOMP on Shawn's face. Good. DDT! Good.

 

Somers in. Shawn eats more cage. Good. Stomers stomps a hole in his head now. Good.

 

Cheesegrater action on Shawn's face now. Good. He fucking deserves it.

 

Suplex. Rose in.

 

MASSIVE backdrop from Rose onto the cage. I've really enjoyed this since the heels took over.

 

Shawn starts making the comeback now. Just a hope spot. Cut off.

 

Hot tag. Jannetty a house of fire. Big powerslam. Rose escapes the cage! No. He's dangling on top now. Big bump.

 

There's the pin.

 

This is very good.

 

--------------

 

I think it maps onto Final Conflict exactly with 3 crucial differences:

 

1. The faces are brutal from the get go. I know Chad's criticism of Final Conflict is that it took Steamboat and Youngblood an age to use the cage and they were doing technical moves like arm drags rather than ramming heads.

 

But as I've argued with Chad before: the shine sequence on Kernodle both establishes that they are goody-two-shoes faces and builds up to the big moment when he finally eats the cage.

 

Here, in the first 10 minutes, The Rockers just fucking destroyed Rose and Somers, battered them. And I think it's less effective than the similar shine sequence in Final Conflict.

 

2. Shawn Michaels is a total dick in this match, in a heelish way

 

This really brings the first half of the match down for me. I mean, enough for me to deduct a grade. What was he doing? I don't like faces treating heels like chumps. It's a MASSIVE problem I have with Flair vs. Hogan from 94, that Hogan treats Flair like a jobber.

 

There's working on top, and then there's taking liberties. I thought Shawn took liberties with two very giving, generous opponents here who were making him look a million dollars. Why be an asshole on top of that when you're meant to be the babyface?

 

Real downer for me that.

 

3. Slaughter does an insane holy shit bump.

 

So here, Rose was our Slaughter and for a moment I thought we were going to get a similar holy shit bump from him. We sort of did, but not on that level.

 

---------

 

So based on all of that, I have to rate this below Final Conflict which I have at ****1/2 (A-). So on that basis:

 

B+

 

Seems low, given how awesome parts of this are, especially the heel control segement, but the Shawn stuff really pissed me off and I think they went to the cage too early, so the match had nowhere to go or build to.

 

I'd happily put this on a compilation of "cage matches to see before you die", but it does have problems.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Shawn and Marty HATE Somersault and Rose. That's how you treat someone you despise when you're fighting in a steel cage. It'd be silly if Shawn treated Somers with any respect. It's a fight. Was Magnum a dick because he was brutalizing Tully in the cage? No, because both Tully and Somers deserved to be treated that way and were fucking asking for it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Rose/Somers vs. Rockers (cage 2)

 

Sherri looks like a meringue here.

 

Heels trying to keep the faces out is hilarious.

 

Gosh, Rose's big fat white ass.

 

The shine sequence is worked a lot "cleaner" here than in the last match.

 

And we get a quick transition as Rose slingshots Shawn into the cage. The visual of him covered in blood is insane.

 

HEEL Michaels with a low blow!

 

Hot tag to Jannetty. Rose does a lot more of the bumping for the heels in this match. Cheesegrater.

 

We get a transition to a second face in peril section. "Double heat" structure fans.

 

Big comeback from Shawn now. Flapjack. Sherri is crying.

 

Rose with the comeback attempt again. Slugfest on the top of the cage. Somers batteringrammed into the cage! Great finish.

 

This is a much better match for me than the last one. Fewer structural problems, more involvement from Rose in general, Shawn was better behaved and sold his ass off, the blood was insane.

 

I can understand why Will, Johnny P and Sorrow will all put the St. Paul match higher. It's more immediately accessible, it feels more brutal and visceral, it came first -- but I think this one will stand up better to "repeated plays", and it stands up much better to real scrutiny.

 

Let me make an ill-judged and wildly inaccurate analogy: that St. Paul match is like Bowie's Hunky Dory - great album, most people listening to it are going to think it's amazing ***** etc., but it's got some shitty tracks on there (Kooks anyone? Song for Bob Dylan? Fill Your Heart?). This match, this is like Station to Station or Low or something. It might not floor you straight away or have the immediacy of Hunky Dory, but it's the better album.

 

This was really good.

 

A

[JerryvonKramer]

Shawn and Marty HATE Somersault and Rose. That's how you treat someone you despise when you're fighting in a steel cage. It'd be silly if Shawn treated Somers with any respect. It's a fight. Was Magnum a dick because he was brutalizing Tully in the cage? No, because both Tully and Somers deserved to be treated that way and were fucking asking for it.

Magnum didn't push Tully over as if he was a feather either. There's a difference between working with hatred and intensity and just being a douchbag. I think Shawn was just being a douchbag.

[Matt D]

Parv,

 

I would not want to rob you of the joy of reading my insane rant:

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=clnk&gl=us

[JerryvonKramer]

I look forward to reading that Matt. Once I'm done with this disc, I'll read the thread to see what has been said too. Very interested to see Chad's views on this because I have a funny feeling he'll be the one other guy who also thinks the second cage match is better.

 

Rose/Somers vs. Rockers (final)

 

The heel control segement during this is pretty good. Some excellent selling from Michaels.

 

After the two cage matches it's quite hard to concentrate during this one. It's also after 5am here, which must be contributing.

 

I quite like the darkness of the arena here.

 

This FIP sequence is really long, but some great offense from Rose and Somers. Piledriver! Superplex!

 

This is probably the best Shawn Michaels performance on the set, excellent almost Ricky-Morton-level FIPing here.

 

Big title win! Very good finish.

 

This was a classic southern tag with a great finish.

 

A-

[Dylan Waco]

I think the second cage match is better

[Johnny Sorrow]

Shawn and Marty HATE Somersault and Rose. That's how you treat someone you despise when you're fighting in a steel cage. It'd be silly if Shawn treated Somers with any respect. It's a fight. Was Magnum a dick because he was brutalizing Tully in the cage? No, because both Tully and Somers deserved to be treated that way and were fucking asking for it.

Magnum didn't push Tully over as if he was a feather either. There's a difference between working with hatred and intensity and just being a douchbag. I think Shawn was just being a douchbag.

 

That spot aside, you seem puzzled by Shawn spitting on Somers, and all the other "heel" things he did. If The Rockers treated two jobbers on TV like that, then yes...that's fucked up. But treating two scumbags who have done worse to them like that is "just desserts"

[JerryvonKramer]

Boris Zukhov vs. Leon White

 

White a lot more Vaderish here.

 

Once again, Zukhov is pretty good on offense. I don't know if it's just the matches that made this set, but he's a mini-revelation on this set consider JUST.HOW.SHIT he was in WWF.

 

As I say that he does quite a rubbish-looking bearhug. Vader powers out. Takes a knee to the gut.

 

Zukhov has used that massive head as a weapon effectively throughout this match. Really good stuff from him.

 

Vader has taken a lot of punishment to the "bread basket" and Boris has targetted that area quite well. He should do an abdominable stretch now.

 

Oh my god! He actually did one! That's amazing. Zukhov the fucking scientist.

 

Vader takes over on offense now and he's got shades of his future badassery here. The stiff shots in the turnbuckle. The splashes. And Zukhov is selling this stuff reasonably well.

 

B

 

Probably the best Boris Zukhov performance of all time.

 

Insanely high quality for this disc.

[JerryvonKramer]

Shawn and Marty HATE Somersault and Rose. That's how you treat someone you despise when you're fighting in a steel cage. It'd be silly if Shawn treated Somers with any respect. It's a fight. Was Magnum a dick because he was brutalizing Tully in the cage? No, because both Tully and Somers deserved to be treated that way and were fucking asking for it.

Magnum didn't push Tully over as if he was a feather either. There's a difference between working with hatred and intensity and just being a douchbag. I think Shawn was just being a douchbag.

 

That spot aside, you seem puzzled by Shawn spitting on Somers, and all the other "heel" things he did. If The Rockers treated two jobbers on TV like that, then yes...that's fucked up. But treating two scumbags who have done worse to them like that is "just desserts"

 

No, I totally disagree. Shawn was being a total dick in that match. Not in a way that said "hatred" but in a way that said "look at me, I'm so much better than these guys". In a way that reminded me of Road Warrior Hawk at his douchey selfish bad worst.

 

I hate that shit and no arguments can sell me on it any other way.

 

Shawn didn't do it in any of the other matches, so maybe he was high on coke that night or something but that doesn't excuse it. He was a total cock.

[JerryvonKramer]

Disc 8 rankings

 

A*

Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (11/21/86)

 

A

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87)

Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (12/25/86)

 

A-

Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (11/27/86)

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/27/87)

 

B+

Col. Debeers vs. Jerry Blackwell (Ladder Match) (11/27/86)

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86)

 

B

Leon White vs. Boris Zuhkov (2/21/87)

 

B-

Buddy Rose, Doug Somers & Sherri Martel vs. Midnight Rockers & Despina Montegues (11/27/86)

 

C-

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Greg Gagne & Jimmy Snuka (9/20/86)

Buddy Rose vs. Marty Jannetty (10/18/86)

[Johnny Sorrow]

They were supposed to be better than Rose and Somers. That was the point. The kayfabe story was that Rose and Somers were nowhere near as good as the Rockers, but they kept cheating and chicken shitting their way to retain the belts. Once the Rockers got them in the cage to exact some revenge, revenge was had. But since it was in a cage, and the Rockers were so full of hate, eventually there was a slip up and the shitty cowardly heels got to take advantage. I know WE all know how awesome Rose and Somers were, but their characters were supposed to be "inferior wrestlers, but cagey veterans". And, the crowd ate it up which is the most important thing.

 

Oh and at first I read "Abombinable stretch" up there and I thought

 

1. That'd be an awesome name for a Mountain Man's finisher.

 

2. That's what Gorilla should have called all those stretches where "he's not hooking his foot, Jess."

[JerryvonKramer]

Gotta love spelling auto-correct.

 

Johnny, you explaining all of that changes nothing. The Rockers were meant to be better, fine, they weren't meant to be cocky arrogant twats, which is how Shawn was playing it.

 

I will now read the thread and Matt D's thoughts.