If Not Race Then Who?

[KrisZ]

Pretty much anyone who had a run on TBS at one point

[khawk20]

It's good for Crockett, but bad for the rest of the NWA. The NWA faced a real challenge starting that year of balancing their booming territories (Crockett, World Class) while keeping their dwindling promoters happy. What made Race the best option at the time is that he was respected enough to keep the Alliance together. I don't know if most of the NWA promoters would have tolerated a month of say, Valentine/Flair NWA title matches.

Well, what if Brody goes into WCCW or Portland or the other smaller NWA areas and does Double-DQ types of matches with either the best face or biggest heel available, and gets his "cleaner" wins over Crockett-only guys, in Crockett territory?

 

I know it's a wild stab at this (I can't think of anyone outside of Race to carry the spot, off the top of my head, that makes as much or more sense than Harley did), but Brody might also be the only guy that had a "national" enough face to be a reasonable draw outside of Crockett.

 

I can only imagine how much he would have held up Crockett for to show up and lose to Flair at Starrcade cleanly, however...especially with the territory wars brewing, knowing even if he was blackballed to any degree, someone would probably have picked him up pretty fast once Vince got his ball really rolling (I'm looking at you, Verne Gagne, lol).

[Dylan Waco]

Brody is a non-starter for the reasons you mention Khawk, though I do admit that as much as I hate him you could have done a compelling angle around him and Flair having the big match. On the other hand Crockett was an area he never really meant shit in and it would have been incredibly odd to pin that first big massive show on Flair v. a guy who was never a world champ before and had no track record as a star/draw in that area

[JerryvonKramer]

Pretty much anyone who had a run on TBS at one point

 

Right, so by this rational if it's not a former champ, it has to be a Crockett guy or former Crockett guy correct?* I mean "good for Crockett bad for the rest of the NWA" is just hard cheese.

 

Speaking of which, how about Piper?

 

* OR, was TBS still wrapped up with Georgia at that point?

[KrisZ]

TBS was still home of GCW yes

[JerryvonKramer]

How close was the Crockett office to the Georgia office pre-Black Saturday?

 

How often, for example, did Flair turn up on the WCW show as run by GCW?

[babylonianfrost]

By the way, for all the complaining we've done about Kiniski at Starrcade over the years, I've read stuff more recently that this was the idea. Kiniski would appear to be biased for Flair to give Race an out in Kansas City. While that may be true, my first instinct is to question that, only because I'm not sure Race or even KC as a town was strong enough to deserve that level of protection at that point. Anyone?

Well...I suppose that since Bob Geigel was acting president of the NWA at the time and he had ownership in the Central States territory along with Race and I think Sonny Myers (as well as the St. Louis Wrestling Club, which seemed to be Kiniski's primary locale for headlining bigger shows in the early-'80's and was regarded as some sort of "gem of the NWA" based on more than one interview that I've read/heard), even if that's not entirely true, there are still strong enough connections to warrant the discussion of a possibility.

[babylonianfrost]

How close was the Crockett office to the Georgia office pre-Black Saturday?

 

How often, for example, did Flair turn up on the WCW show as run by GCW?

I've been watching some of the 1982-1983 shows lately and Flair was a semi-regular on the shows to point of acting as guest commentator with Solie on occasion, as least into April (which is as far as I've gotten in the most recent go-round of viewing). He may not have shown up as much as the regulars like Sawyer, Rich, Orndorff, Anderson, etc., but he was by no means a stranger and did some of the Ohio tours as well as Omni shows, if the promos are any indication.

 

Wasn't Barnett booking/scheduling the champion at this point? He had a vested interest in having the world champ on his television and lord knows Flair must have been happy to get nationwide exposure on the superstation.

[jdw]

Largely what Dylan and Bix have said. You need to work backwards:

 

* the point was for Flair to challenge at Starcade

 

That really was the whole point.

 

* it was short term... but not *that* short

 

57 - Race I (Dory --> Harley --> Brisco)

7 - Baba I (Brisco --> Baba --> Brisco)

5 Dusty I (Race --> Dusty --> Race)

7 Baba II (Race --> Baba --> Race)

5 Baba III (Race --> Baba --> Race)

4 Rich (Race --> Rich --> Race)

88 Dusty II (Race --> Dusty --> Flair)

167 Race VII (Flair --> Race --> Flair)

18 Kerry (Flair --> Kerry --> Flair)

 

The three Babas, Dusty I and Rich were purely title turn arounds: drop it to put ove local guy, with the belt instantly coming back. Kerry was essentially that as well: he got to mini-tour Florida and Japan as a bit of a nod to Fritz rather than dropping it back to Flair before Flair left Texas. But he didn't really become a true touring champ.

 

Race I and Dusty II were more "bridge champs", but long then the typical bridge champs you'd seen in the WWWF/WWF with the exception of Superstar. Two months, three months... you have to go around the circuit a bit. You can't put the belt on just anyone to do that: you have to have a little confidence in them.

 

Race VII was almost twice as long at Dusty II. He was going to hit a lot of parts of the NWA, including a trip to Japan. You really, really, really need some confidence there.

 

Race was someone that NWA Promoters had some faith in being able to come in and draw against their local guys. He also had a track record of being reliable as an NWA Champ, Houston not withstanding. You don't hold the belt from 1977 through half of 1981 without being reasonably reliable for promoters. He also wasn't completely "Old News": he held the belt just two years earlier. How many guys were there at that time that could fit those roles?

 

In turn, he was someone that Crockett knew he could book against Flair to give Starcade proper heft. How many guys were there who could fit that.

 

I think Terry would have been great in this role. But:

 

* we would have to look at the old WONs to figure out when the Retirement started getting planned

 

I don't recall when it got announced. But it was a Big Deal to All Japan as they were trying to fight a red hot New Japan. In addition, while getting Terry to defend in All Japan might have done business, it would have been a very limited number of dates: Race got just one defense, and it was so obscure that it oddly got left off several title defense lists that I've seen. Anyway... Terry couldn't have worked a full 3-4 All Japan series while being NWA Champ. They NWA Champ *never* worked that long in Japan in the 70s and 80s, instead typically going over for a week or less. It's also doubtful that he could have made two trips to Japan: Race was pretty booked up in the US.

 

In turn, Terry's primary commitment at the time was to All Japan. He typically did what helped them, and then worked around it elsewhere. It's a little hard to see him taking it.

 

* Terry was pretty Old News: 1976 was a long time ago from 1983

 

That's a really long time in pro wrestling. One wonders if territory promoters would have been keen on it.

 

As much as the storyline and angles and mic work would have been, there seem to be a lot of things to point to for it not being pulled off. :/

 

* * * * *

 

As far as Brisco, we need to recall that he begged off of the title at the end of 1975 at a time when the NWA Promoters had zero desire to take it off him. It seems likely that if Jack wanted to hold it until 1978, they would have been fine with him holding it. The reason Jack always gave was being burned out from the travel. It seem hard to expect him to want to go back on the grind, even for five and a half months. We saw how quickly he burned out of the WWF just a year later.

 

There's also a few factors:

 

* it was 1975 when he last held the belt

 

Again, a long time ago

 

* his stature wasn't what it once was

 

He spent 1982 with the Mid Atlantic Title, feuding with Piper and Paul Jones. I'm not going to say the MA Title meant nothing, but it also wasn't the US Title or the World Tag Title, and certainly not the World Title. So right there in JCP itself, he kind of was down from World Title level.

 

Could they have built him up with the angle where it pops Starcade big? Perhaps.

 

But they also made the call to turn the Briscoes at pretty much the same time, givning Steamboat & Youngblood a fresh new set of opponents after the Slaughter & Kernodle ran its course.

 

I don't know. Race was the "safe" pick. Brisco might have been a safe back up, but it seems unlikely that Jack would have agreed, nor than JCP would have looked at it as a great option.

 

* * * * *

 

Dusty wouldn't have wanted to go heel, nor be in position to put Flair over at Starcade. He also couldn't have made that tour of All Japan: he was committed and loyal to Inoki and New Japan. In addition, I don't recall how well Dusty drew as a Touring Champ back in 1981. Clearly Dust was a draw in a lot of places around the country. But Touring Champ, and having to play a different role opposite Local Heroes... that's a bit different from typical Dusty at that point in his career.

 

* * * * *

 

Valentine is a very interesting choice. He was pretty knee deep in his feud with Piper already at the time of the Flair-Race title change. Pretty sure Valentine would have been perfectly fine as a touring heel champ. Valentine probably wouldn't have been able to do the All Japan tour either: he worked several times for New Japan and seemed to be loyal there.

 

Not sure how NWA Promoters would have looked at it. You basically had a JCP Long Term Champ (Flair) and you're picking a JCP Interim Champ (Valentine) for 160+ days to set up a JCP Event (Starcade). That might just piss off the other promoters.

 

* * * * *

 

David Von Erich? I don't think there would be a single NWA Promoter other than Fritz who would want to have the belt on David for 160+ days. No way in hell.

 

* * * * *

 

DiBiase? There never seemed to be a strong push by NWA Promoters to give him a run with the belt between June 1981 and the end of 1985 (when the NWA effectively fell apart). I get the notion that he was "considered" for the belt all the time. But there was a 4 year run where NWA Promoters was very happy to let Flair defend the title in their territories time after time after time rather than thinking, "Hey... why don't we let Ted have the belt for 12 months to freshen things up before going back to Flair?" I guess what I'm trying to say is that "considered" probably isn't the same thing as "a lot of people wanted to give it a try".

 

Also, at that point, did Ted mean dick in JCP to headline Starcade? I get the concept that "Flair could draw against any Heel Champ who took his belt and ran THAT angle?" But again, Harley was a known quantity to JCP Fans. They'd seen him defending that belt against their Heroes since 1977, with JCP Heroes never once beating him to win the title in JCP Land. There was something there. With Ted... ?

 

* * * * *

 

I tend to think Race was the "right" choice. Safe, easy, checked off the most boxes.

 

Terry would have been the most "fun". That would have been some wild shit, and Terry sending in his Bounty Hunters would have been cool to. Also, getting a Terry defense or four in Japan would have been cool. Terry going into Texas would have been cool. Terry defending in Florida would have been cool. This shit would have rocked. I'm not sure how quickly it would have clicked for fans because of the gap since he last held the belt. But Terry was so good on the mic that he probably would have pulled it off.

 

The rest? Don't know if there was a good fit.

[Dylan Waco]

There is a massive difference between 81 and 83. 83 I think Race or Jack are the only real options. If for some reason they decided not to go with former NWA champ I think Ivan is a poor choice for a bunch of reasons I will cover later if pressed (at work). Valentine would be the best option in that unlikely scenario as he had previous history with Flair and had long time value in MACW.

 

81 there are many viable options. I think there Patera is the best pick though I'm biased. Again I can explain in detail later if pressed

I don't think Ivan is a great choice, I was just saying realistically he was RIGHT THERE and in wrestling sometimes it happens that they'll go with convenience rather than what is the best choice.

 

You will likely not agree at all, but I think Ivan in 83 had a more realistic chance of happening than Patera in 81.

 

If Ivan did get the title, I don't think it would have been in June but likely later. More of a 30-60-day sort of reign. Granted, that would have been a shockingly shit main event for the first Starrcade, but they could have built it up in various ways. NWA vs. old WWWF, USA vs. USSR etc. etc. Plus Nikita is around the corner.

 

I'm not saying it's a great scenario, but if Race wasn't there I can see them looking at it as a possibility.

 

 

I would be willing to listen to an argument that Ivan in 83 would have been a better pick than Patera in 81. Willing to listen to it mainly because I am an Ivan fan, think he's underappreciated (not unlike Patera really) and would be interested to see someone make the case. Still I don't believe it.

 

Having said that I have no clue what would make anyone think Ivan in 83 was a more likely NWA titleholder than Patera in 81.

 

I don't want to shit on Ivan. He had a great career and in my eyes is an HoFer. I'd more than likely vote for him over Patera if forced to choose just one (though it's close). But the circumstances and timing involved were not at all in his favor in 83, nor were the politics. Ivan was a guy who had gone outlaw before and had some rough dealings with promoters IIRC. He had been used a lot in tags in the years prior, including some hot runs in Georgia to be sure, but he was nowhere near his absolute peak as a star in wrestling. It's very hard to see how or why he would have been chosen in 83 - if convenience was an issue/connections to Crockett was a major factor it strikes me that Valentine would have been a vastly better pick. He was in his prime as a worker and a star, had the back history with Flair, was a MACW guy, had worked major singles feuds there to great effect and even had a connection to the "older" generation through his dad. 83 was to some degree Crockett's first big shot across the bow in terms of presenting itself as a national product. We can argue about how much of the show was about that, but I think it's hard to argue for Ivan at that point in his career as the guy you want in the role opposite Flair.

 

As for Patera in 81 we know he was considered (or at least to the extent we "know" anything about what NWA promoters were talking about at that time). Kris is right to point about that he ditched Georgia out of nowhere in the Summer, but I would keep two things in mind when thinking about how relevant that would have been.

 

1. As best as I can tell he left Georgia no early then the first week in August. Flair won the World title in the middle of Sept. That means at most there was a six week gap between these two events. My point? I don't know off hand when the NWA board of directors meeting was in 1981, but the decision to put the belt on Flair was almost certainly made long before Patera left Georgia. It's actually more likely Patera left Georgia because he thought he was spinning his wheels in an NWA territory and wasn't going to get the title, then it is that he didn't get the title BECAUSE he up and left Georgia (for the record I don't believe that for a second).

 

2. Patera leaving Georgia didn't seem to bother Sam Muchnick, who in 1981 was still at worst one of the most powerful figures in the NWA, albeit a figure who was on his way out. How do I know this? The last date we have for Patera in Ga is August 3rd with Dusty retaining the NWA title by DQ. Then he works August 7th in St. Louis second from the top v. Jack Brisco with Dusty v. Flair up top. He was a no show for defending the Ga title v. Rich on the 9th and was stripped of the title. What was his punishment for this? Well he worked what was effectively a co-main event in St. Louis a month later v. Brisco in a Texas Death Match (Harley v. Kerry on last). Ah yes, but he lost you say. True. But he was the semi-main on the very next show yet again and by the October show - about two and half months after his heinous sin against the NWA - Patera main evented St. Louis and WON the Missouri Title beating Jack Brisco. Patera debuted in the AWA the next night and it is only then that he starts to slip a wee bit down the cards in St. Louis (though not far really at all - he was always a semi-main/main event level guy there). My point? Even if the Georgia ordeal happened before the decision to put the belt on Flair (virtually no way this is true), perhaps the single biggest power broker in the NWA was still pushing him on the biggest, most star packed shows in the NWA.

 

(As an aside Patera was also working Houston - perhaps the best payday outside of the WWWF in wrestling at that point - during this point as well. I believe at this point Bock had points in the office there and it seems very possible the decision to go work with Verne was made through those channels at that point).

 

Going beyond this I think the contrast with Ivan in 83 is pretty stark. Unlike Ivan, Patera was at his absolute peak at that point (you could argue his "peak" ended when he left Georgia - I would probably say it ended when he hit the AWA in Oct, after the Flair title win). In the previous years he had been wildly successful drawing card as a challenger and opponent in multiple places to Andre, Dusty, Pedro, Backlund and Bruno. Those are also probably five of the top seven or eight babyfaces in the country from that point if not THE five top babyfaces in the country at that point. He had worked high on the cards everywhere and main evented most of the big wrestling towns in Canada and the U.S. during that period, including the big one off towns like Toronto and St. Louis where he seemed to be in particular demand. He was considered a very good worker during the period, if not a great worker. Judging by his placement on cards in St. Louis and the way Matysik puts him over even now, he was likely a guy Muchnick enjoyed a ton, if not an outright Muchnick favorite. Because he had worked all the biggest promotions and towns and feuded with all the hottest babyfaces (including guys like Atlas and Rich who were hot, if not quite at the level of the others listed though Rich is arguable), it seems pretty obvious that Patera was one of the top heels in wrestling. And not one of as in "top dozen or so." One of us in "top handful or so." One of as in in 1981 when the decision was made you could make a reasonable argument that over the course of the previous five years Patera was the biggest national heel star to the extent that there was such a thing at that point. Not sure even I would go to bat for that statement, but its not ludicrous at all. After Harley and maybe Terry (I'd have to look at his dates as he was spending a ton of time in Japan) both of whom had the benefit of being past/current NWA champs it's actually hard for me to even think of who would else would have been in the running. It's actually hard to see how he wasn't a bigger star than Flair at that particular point in time.

 

In any case the point isn't that Patera should have got a run or could have done better than Flair or anyone else for that matter. It's that he had a pretty strong case at that point in time. Certainly a stronger case than Ivan had in 83.

[Dylan Waco]

Another brief note about 81 Georgia. It could be argued that Ga was seen as a bit of rouge promotion at that point. In fact I think it is pretty much inarguable that it was seen that way by some. People were pissed about the allegedly unauthorized title switch to Rich in April from Harley and some were really uncomfortable about TBS and everything that came with it (i.e. possible incursions into "their" territories). In that context walking out on GA probably sounds worse than it actually was in the eyes of many promoters

[Bix]

Another brief note about 81 Georgia. It could be argued that Ga was seen as a bit of rouge promotion at that point. In fact I think it is pretty much inarguable that it was seen that way by some. People were pissed about the allegedly unauthorized title switch to Rich in April from Harley and some were really uncomfortable about TBS and everything that came with it (i.e. possible incursions into "their" territories). In that context walking out on GA probably sounds worse than it actually was in the eyes of many promoters

Not necessarily, Ole was briefly able to get Piper blackballed by most NWA promoters when he walked out.

[Dylan Waco]

* * * * *

 

Valentine is a very interesting choice. He was pretty knee deep in his feud with Piper already at the time of the Flair-Race title change. Pretty sure Valentine would have been perfectly fine as a touring heel champ. Valentine probably wouldn't have been able to do the All Japan tour either: he worked several times for New Japan and seemed to be loyal there.

 

Not sure how NWA Promoters would have looked at it. You basically had a JCP Long Term Champ (Flair) and you're picking a JCP Interim Champ (Valentine) for 160+ days to set up a JCP Event (Starcade). That might just piss off the other promoters.

 

* * * * *

 

David Von Erich? I don't think there would be a single NWA Promoter other than Fritz who would want to have the belt on David for 160+ days. No way in hell.

This whole post is excellent but I wanted to respond to these two things.

 

On Valentine I would note that while I agree with much of what you are saying here, I think it is probable that he would have given up NJPW at that point, but more importantly I'm not sure NWA promoters could have done a whole to block the belt going to Valentine in 83. IIRC the power was already waning dramatically by that point of the board. I could be wrong and if so correct me. Having said that I agree that it could have been something of a problem on paper and for that reason likely never would have been proposed unless Harley, Terry and Jack were all completely off the table as options. I do think Valentine was the best option of the guys who weren't tied up in New York, the AWA or former champs, but it was probably never going to get to that point.

 

On David - thanks for saying this. I think the "David as NWA champ" stuff is totally overblown. I have no doubt that his name was mentioned favorably and talked up in some quarters - just as Ted was and Patera was. But I think of those three he would have been a distant third in terms of a guy who could have gotten the votes, had the confidence of promoters and been effective in that role.

[Dylan Waco]

Another brief note about 81 Georgia. It could be argued that Ga was seen as a bit of rouge promotion at that point. In fact I think it is pretty much inarguable that it was seen that way by some. People were pissed about the allegedly unauthorized title switch to Rich in April from Harley and some were really uncomfortable about TBS and everything that came with it (i.e. possible incursions into "their" territories). In that context walking out on GA probably sounds worse than it actually was in the eyes of many promoters

Not necessarily, Ole was briefly able to get Piper blackballed by most NWA promoters when he walked out.

 

I knew this was going to get brought up as soon as I posted that but I think the circumstances are different - Patera was a proven star all over at that point and was in tight with Muchnick's gang. With Piper he was already seen as something of a wild child and his biggest promotional ally at that point was the "old coot" in Portland who wasn't known for pulling strings/playing cards as much as the others.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, there is no real "case" for Ivan I'm just saying it was a realistic possibility.

 

Why?

 

There's a parallel over in WWF: Iron Sheik. Was he definitely the BEST possible pick in the entire world to be transitional champ between Backlund and Hogan? Or was some part of it the fact that he was just sitting there in the locker room?

 

It was easier for Vince to turn to Sheik than to pick up the phone to get in any one of about 10 guys who might have been "better" in that role.

 

Granted, many aspects of this analogy are imperfect:

 

- Crockett didn't have sole control of the NWA title and so it wouldn't have worked the same way, there'd have had to have been meetings, whereas Vince could just point to Sheik and say "you'll do"

- Sheik was closer to his prime than Ivan

- Sheik was acting as a 1-month trasitional champ, whereas this role was as a 6-month interim champ

 

My point however was, in the absence of Race:

 

- Jack Brisco had complications, jdw has outlined them

- Dusty wouldn't work heel

- Terry was retired / in a retirement angle in All Japan

- Hansen was in Japan

- DiBiase worked for Watts

- Patera was in the AWA

 

Each and every one of those cases involves numerous phonecalls, the hashing out of deals and so on.

 

In such a case, it is perfectly conceivable for the booker to start looking around the locker room.

 

Granted, Valentine is a stronger candidate. I never said he wasn't.

 

But they would have looked at Ivan as a guy who:

 

1. Had held a world title before

2. Had national recognition, literally all over the country

3. Had easy cheap heat from being Russian, easy face heat for Flair (see also Sheik parallel)

4. Had ready-made storylines that could develop from the initial feud

 

So you are Jim Crockett in that NWA board meeting.

 

"Guys, these are the options here. We can go Valentine, he's a good hand, we can trust him, he's over ... or there's old Ivan. He's been there and done it, everyone knows him, might draw a few gates"

 

All I'm saying is that -- in this scenario where Harley Race is dead or permanently injured or out of the picture for any other reason -- something like this could have taken place.

 

"Well, Jim, we could try calling Brisco again. One last shot for him, might have had a change of heart since 78"

 

I can see Ivan being a CONSIDERATION in that way.

 

He's not going to be number 1 or even 2 or 3 or 4th choice, but he might be a convenient backup.

 

---------

 

I think the situation in 1981 is very different. It's not the same sort of decision. I think it's a much bigger call to go with Patera there.

 

Again, sure, he would have been part of such conversations. But those conversations coming to fruition, I think, have greater contigencies to overcome than the Ivan scenario.

 

This has NOTHING to do with Patera's standing in 81 or Ivan's in 83, it's simply a pragmatic take on what might have gone down.

[Dylan Waco]

Dylan, there is no real "case" for Ivan I'm just saying it was a realistic possibility.

This is already a concession because there WAS a real case for Patera both in theory and in practice. Patera's name was at least tossed around as a possibility in 80/81. We have no clue how serious it was, but he was at least on the table in the eyes of some promoters. I have never once heard Ivan mentioned as being on the table in 83 as an NWA title holder. With Patera you certainly have a real case. You also probably have a "realistic possibility." I see no reason to believe Ivan had either in 83.

 

There's a parallel over in WWF: Iron Sheik. Was he definitely the BEST possible pick in the entire world to be transitional champ between Backlund and Hogan? Or was some part of it the fact that he was just sitting there in the locker room?

This is a pretty bad comparison for a variety of reasons, some of which you touched on below.

 

1. The point wasn't Flair triumphing over evil foreign menace because he was the essence of Americana. The point was "passing of the guard" title switch. Vastly different things. Not even close really.

2. The goals of Crockett and Vince at those points were radically different. Not even comparable really.

3. Sheik's reign was barely even a reign. Almost nothing special was required of him. Race had the belt for half a year as would anyone else in the spot in 83.

4. Sheik worked for one promoter. Race or whoever was in that slot would have worked for perhaps a dozen or more.

 

I could go on, but the point is viewing this through the prism of 80's WWF/Vince is the absolute wrong way to do it.

 

 

My point however was, in the absence of Race:

 

- Jack Brisco had complications, jdw has outlined them

- Dusty wouldn't work heel

- Terry was retired / in a retirement angle in All Japan

- Hansen was in Japan

- DiBiase worked for Watts

- Patera was in the AWA

I don't think Patera would have even been a fringe option in 83. Or Hansen. Even Dibiase feels like a pretty big stretch for what they were looking for. In the absence of Race they would have probably made a play for Jack or Terry. Might not have worked. If it didn't Valentine is right there. I'm trying to think of how far down the list they would have had to get to even get to Ivan, but it seems unlikely he would have been further up the theoretical list than Patera would have been in 81 (you could make the case there was exactly one guy on that list in 81 - Flair).

 

In such a case, it is perfectly conceivable for the booker to start looking around the locker room.

Not if they are looking for someone who will be defending the title nationally and in Japan and representing a huge variety of promotions.

 

But they would have looked at Ivan as a guy who:

 

1. Had held a world title before

2. Had national recognition, literally all over the country

3. Had easy cheap heat from being Russian, easy face heat for Flair (see also Sheik parallel)

4. Had ready-made storylines that could develop from the initial feud

The third would have been a negative for what they were going for. I think that's actually pretty obvious. The second is true to an extent, though his national luster/value was almost certainly not at the level of Patera in 81 which is the direct comp. The first is true only in name. He was briefly - very briefly - champion of the big NYC territory.

 

So you are Jim Crockett in that NWA board meeting.

 

"Guys, these are the options here. We can go Valentine, he's a good hand, we can trust him, he's over ... or there's old Ivan. He's been there and done it, everyone knows him, might draw a few gates"

 

All I'm saying is that -- in this scenario where Harley Race is dead or permanently injured or out of the picture for any other reason -- something like this could have taken place.

 

"Well, Jim, we could try calling Brisco again. One last shot for him, might have had a change of heart since 78"

 

I can see Ivan being a CONSIDERATION in that way.

 

He's not going to be number 1 or even 2 or 3 or 4th choice, but he might be a convenient backup.

I'm not saying he was an impossibility. Just a massive, massive, massive improbability.

 

I think the situation in 1981 is very different. It's not the same sort of decision. I think it's a much bigger call to go with Patera there.

 

Again, sure, he would have been part of such conversations. But those conversations coming to fruition, I think, have greater contigencies to overcome than the Ivan scenario.

 

This has NOTHING to do with Patera's standing in 81 or Ivan's in 83, it's simply a pragmatic take on what might have gone down.

I think your argument is based on false equivalency between the WWF and Crockett/NWA, a view that "Americans v. foreigners" was the default standard for big match 80's feuds, and a complete unwillingness to discuss the details of 81 - details that pretty clearly illustrate Patera was one of the absolute top stars in wrestling at the time.

[jdw]

This whole post is excellent but I wanted to respond to these two things.

 

On Valentine I would note that while I agree with much of what you are saying here, I think it is probable that he would have given up NJPW at that point, but more importantly I'm not sure NWA promoters could have done a whole to block the belt going to Valentine in 83. IIRC the power was already waning dramatically by that point of the board. I could be wrong and if so correct me.

I think in 1983 that the NWA Promoters in general still had a ton of power. The decline came when Vince went national, then again in 1985 when Crockett started eating up more of Flair's time and of course decided to go national more so in 1986. But in 1983, a large chunk of the core territories were still strong, with powerful promoters, and JCP still was a fairly narrow promotion within their borders.

 

I don't think Crockett was going to fight the NWA over this. After all, he didn't go into GA instantly after Vince bought GCW out: Ole & Co. got the territory. I think if we look at 1985, Flair is still beholden for much of it to the NWA:

 

http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/...atches1985.html

 

Look at Mar-May: he's JCP at the start of March and the end of May, but it's hard to find JCP in between. In fact, that looks like when the worm finally turns: June 1985, with a metric ton of JCP dates starting to pile up after that.

 

 

 

Having said that I agree that it could have been something of a problem on paper and for that reason likely never would have been proposed unless Harley, Terry and Jack were all completely off the table as options. I do think Valentine was the best option of the guys who weren't tied up in New York, the AWA or former champs, but it was probably never going to get to that point.

I think Valentine would be a good option. Perhaps a bit too much like Flair to sell to the NWA Promoters (as in it would feel like having Flair 2 coming in), and of course too JCP (had been there forever other than the two runs in the WWF). But if you could convince them of it, he'd probably work well.

 

 

On David - thanks for saying this. I think the "David as NWA champ" stuff is totally overblown. I have no doubt that his name was mentioned favorably and talked up in some quarters - just as Ted was and Patera was. But I think of those three he would have been a distant third in terms of a guy who could have gotten the votes, had the confidence of promoters and been effective in that role.

We have very limited results for Harley over at Hisa's site:

 

http://www.wrestling-titles.com/nwa/world/...atches1983.html

 

Whereas Flair has been the subject to some extensive record books over the years to pull his results together from. Anyway...

 

If we look at where he worked, does it look like something David could have pulled off? I don't think so.

[JerryvonKramer]

Side point: what about Slaughter?

[JerryvonKramer]

I think your argument is based on false equivalency between the WWF and Crockett/NWA, a view that "Americans v. foreigners" was the default standard for big match 80's feuds, and a complete unwillingness to discuss the details of 81 - details that pretty clearly illustrate Patera was one of the absolute top stars in wrestling at the time.

Except we know that they ran Flair vs. Nikita in a American vs. foreigner angle just 2 years later.

 

My unwillingness to get into 81 is because the parameters of that scenario haven't really been fleshed out. Is this a world without Flair? Which title switch are we talking there?

[Dylan Waco]

Side point: what about Slaughter?

In 81? No way. In 83? Very unlikely, but I would say a better shot than Ivan.

[Dylan Waco]

I think your argument is based on false equivalency between the WWF and Crockett/NWA, a view that "Americans v. foreigners" was the default standard for big match 80's feuds, and a complete unwillingness to discuss the details of 81 - details that pretty clearly illustrate Patera was one of the absolute top stars in wrestling at the time.

Except we know that they ran Flair vs. Nikita in a American vs. foreigner angle just 2 years later.

 

My unwillingness to get into 81 is because the parameters of that scenario haven't really been fleshed out. Is this a world without Flair? Which title switch are we talking there?

 

Flair won the title in Sept of 81 as I mentioned in my post.

 

There is a big difference between Crockett and Flair in 83 and in 85. Big difference between Nikita's role and the role you are proposing as a possibility for Ivan. So big that it's not even a real comparison you can work with. I assume you know this.

 

Just for shits a giggles give me an example of an NWA champion Ivan would have been comparable too.

[KrisZ]

Here is the schedule that I have for Harley

 

 

World Class @ Dallas, TX – Reunion Arena – June 17, 1983 (21,000)

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Kevin Von Erich by DQ

 

CWF @ Gainesville, FL – O’Connell Center – June 19, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham

 

CWF @ Orlando, FL – Eddie Graham Sports Stadium – June 19, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title – SR: Ron Bass: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes

 

CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - June 20, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham

 

CWF @ Tampa, FL – Fort Homer Hesterly Armory – June 21, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Scott McGhee

 

CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – June 22, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes by countout

 

CWF @ Orlando, FL – Eddie Graham Sports Stadium – June 25, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham

 

GCW @ Cleveland, OH - Convention Center - June 30, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Stan Hansen to a double countout

 

GCW @ Dayton, OH - Hara Arena - July 1, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Stan Hansen to a double countout

 

JCP @ Greensboro, NC – Coliseum – July 2, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ric Flair by DQ

 

JCP @ Savannah, GA - Civic Center - July 3, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ric Flair by DQ

 

JCP @ Columbia, SC – Township Auditorium – July 4, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

JCP @ Greenville, SC – Memorial Auditorium – July 4, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Ric Flair to a DDQ

 

JCP @ Raleigh, NC – Dorton Arena – July 5, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Ric Flair to a double countout

 

JCP @ Sumter, SC – Expo Center - July 6, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Ric Flair to a DDQ

 

JCP @ Norfolk, VA – Scope – July 7, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Wahoo McDaniel

 

JCP @ Richmond, VA – Coliseum – July 8, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

JCP @ Charlotte, NC – Coliseum – July 9, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

JCP @ Asheville, NC – Civic Center – July 10, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Ric Flair to a DDQ

 

Tunney @ Toronto, Ontario – Exhibition Stadium – July 10, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

Central States @ Kansas City, KS – Memorial Hall – July 14, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Ric Flair to a no contest

 

JCP @ Greensboro, NC – Coliseum – July 17, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

JCP @ Winston-Salem, NC – Coliseum – July 20, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Ric Flair

 

JCP @ Norfolk, VA – Scope – July 21, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Bob Orton Jr.

 

JCP @ Richmond, VA – Coliseum – July 22, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title – SR – Sandy Scott: Ric Flair d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

JCP @ Charlotte, NC – Coliseum – July 23, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title – SR: Sandy Scott: Ric Flair d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

JCP @ Asheville, NC – Civic Center – July 24, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ricky Steamboat by DQ

 

Tunney @ Toronto, Ontario – Exhibition Stadium – July 24, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ric Flair by DQ

 

WWC @ San Juan, Puerto Rico - July 30, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. El Gran Apollo

 

CWF @ Orlando, FL – Eddie Graham Sports Stadium – July 31, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes by DQ

 

CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - August 1, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © fought Mike Graham to a 60:00 draw

 

CWF @ Tampa, FL - Fort Homer Hesterly Armory - August 2, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Mike Graham by DQ

 

CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – August 3, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham by DQ

 

St. Louis @ St. Louis, MO – Kiel Auditorium – August 5, 1983

2 out of 3 falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ric Flair

 

CWF @ Fort Pierce, FL - August 6, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Blackjack Mulligan

 

JCP @ Asheville, NC – Civic Center – August 7, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Wahoo McDaniel by DQ

 

JCP @ Greensboro, NC – Coliseum – August 7, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Bob Orton Jr.

 

Central States @ Kansas City, KS – Memorial Hall – August 11, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Super Destroyer

 

CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL – City Auditorium – August 15, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes by DQ

 

CWF @ Tampa, FL - Fort Homer Hesterly Armory - August 16, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Dusty Rhodes d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

CWF @ Sunrise, FL – Music Theater – August 17, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Mike Graham

 

CWF @ Jacksonville, FL – Coliseum – August 18, 1983

No DQ for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Dusty Rhodes

 

CWF @ Sarasota, FL – Robarts Arena – August 20, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham by DQ

 

Central States @ Kansas City, KS – Memorial Hall – August 25, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Super Destroyer

 

CWF @ Orlando, FL - Eddie Graham Sports Stadium - September 3, 1983

Mike Graham d. Harley Race

 

CWF @ Ocala, FL – Jai-Alai Fronton – September 4, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham

 

CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - September 5, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Mike Graham by DQ

 

CWF @ Tampa, FL – Fort Homer Hesterly Armory – September 6, 1983

Blackjack Mulligan d. Harley Race

 

CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – September 7, 1983 (5,675)

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ric Flair

 

CWF @ Jacksonville, FL – Coliseum – September 8, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham

 

CWF @ Daytona, FL – Spruce Creek High School – September 9, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Angelo Mosca

 

CWF @ Lakeland, FL – Civic Center – September 10, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham

 

WWC @ San Juan, Puerto Rico - Roberto Clemente Stadium - September 17, 1983 (32,000)

Carlos Colon d. Harley Race

 

Tunney @ Toronto, Ontario – Maple Leaf Gardens – September 18, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Mike Rotundo

 

Central States @ Kansas City, KS – Memorial Hall – September 22, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ted DiBiase d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - September 26, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Barry Windham by countout

 

CWF @ Tampa, FL - Fort Homer Hesterly Armory - September 27, 1983

Blackjack Mulligan, Mike Rotundo, & Barry Windham d. Ron Bass, Harley Race, & JJ Dillon

 

CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – September 28, 1983

2 out of 3 falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Barry Windham d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

CWF @ Jacksonville, FL - Coliseum - September 29, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Blackjack Mulligan d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

CWF @ Ocala, FL – Central Florida Community College – September 30, 1983

2 out of 3 falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham

 

CWF @ St. Petersburg, FL – Bayfront Center – October 1, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Dusty Rhodes to a double countout

 

World Class @ San Antonio, TX – Hemisfair Arena – October 2, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Kevin Von Erich d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

World Class @ Fort Worth, TX – Will Rogers Coliseum – October 3, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Kamala by DQ

 

CWF @ Tampa, FL - Fort Homer Hesterly Armory - October 4, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Dusty Rhodes to a no contest

 

World Class @ Lawton, OK – October 5, 1983

David Von Erich d. Harley Race

 

World Class @ Dallas, TX – The Sportatorium – October 7, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Iceman Parsons by DQ

 

St. Louis @ St. Louis, MO – Kiel Auditorium – October 8, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Hulk Hogan by DQ

 

CWF @ Orlando, FL - Eddie Graham Sports Stadium - October 9, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Barry Windham d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

CWF @ Ocala, FL – Jai-Alai Fronton – October 9, 1983

2 out of 3 falls match for the NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham

 

Central States @ Kansas City, KS – Memorial Hall – October 13, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Hulk Hogan to a no contest

 

Central States @ St. Joseph, MO - Civic Auditorium - October 14, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Buzz Tyler

 

Central States @ Fort Scott, KS - October 15, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Buzz Tyler

 

PNW @ Centralia, WA - October 16, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Billy Jack to a no contest

 

PNW @ Yakima, WA – October 17, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Billy Jack

 

PNW @ Portland, OR – Sports Arena – October 18, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Buddy Rose

 

PNW @ Seattle, WA – Center Arena - October 19, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Billy Jack d. Harley Race © by DQ

 

PNW @ Salem, OR – October 20, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © fought Billy Jack to a draw

 

PNW @ Eugene, OR – Lane County Fairgrounds - October 21, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Billy Jack

 

PNW @ Portland, OR – Sports Arena – October 22, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © fought Billy Jack to a draw

 

AJPW @ Kitami, Japan - October 24, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Jumbo Tsuruta

 

AJPW @ Morioka, Japan - October 26, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © battled Jumbo Tsuruta to a DDQ

 

AJPW @ Aizu, Japan - October 31, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ted DiBiase

 

Central States @ Wichita, KS - Expo Center - November 7, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Buzz Tyler

 

Central States @ Falls City, NE - November 8, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Buzz Tyler

 

Central States @ Kansas City, KS – Memorial Hall – November 10, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ted DiBiase

 

Central States @ Dorado Springs, MO - November 11, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Bob Brown

 

CWF @ Ocala, FL – Jai-Alai Fronton – November 13, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Mike Rotundo

 

CWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - City Auditorium - November 14, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Dusty Rhodes

 

CWF @ Tampa, FL – Sun Dome – November 15, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Mike Rotundo

 

CWF @ Miami, FL – Miami Beach Auditorium & Convention Hall – November 16, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Mike Rotundo by DQ in 22:12

 

CWF @ Daytona Beach, FL – Spruce Creek High School – November 18, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © vs. Barry Windham

 

CWF @ St. Petersburg, FL – Bayfront Center – November 19, 1983

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Harley Race © d. Ron Bass by DQ

 

JCP @ Greensboro, NC – Coliseum – November 24, 1983 (15,447) (Starrcade 83)

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair d. Harley Race ©

[KrisZ]

If you notice there are two dates there period for GCW who basically refused to acknowledge he was the world champion then as Ole was pissed that he beat Flair for the title. They spent the next couple of months working with the outlaw Southwest area before finally bringing back some of the old regulars who were working groups like JCP late in July. Flair would appear on TBS two days after the winning the title and he was treated as the returning hero bringing the title back to TBS.

[JerryvonKramer]

There isn't one, it would have been a radical change of direction for them and I have touted it as being a possibility that may have come about if certain other avenues were closed to them.

 

I also said that it would have been a drastically shorter run , 30-60 days rather than 6 months. Contrary to popular opinion I'm not completely insane, and my grasp on wrestling history not as loose as you'd probably like to think. I just think Ivan might have been someone they could have turned to as a desperate backup. Stranger things have happened. The thing with these scenarios is that plausibility is to some extent illusory in wrestling.

 

Let's say Backlund didn't get his title win in 94, anyone on here would be laughed off the board for suggesting it as even a remote possibility.

 

My point with Ivan is only that it might have been an option in certain conditions. That's all.

[Loss]

If you notice there are two dates there period for GCW who basically refused to acknowledge he was the world champion then as Ole was pissed that he beat Flair for the title. They spent the next couple of months working with the outlaw Southwest area before finally bringing back some of the old regulars who were working groups like JCP late in July. Flair would appear on TBS two days after the winning the title and he was treated as the returning hero bringing the title back to TBS.

Weird, considering that Ole also hates Flair. Then again, Ole hates everyone except for maybe Buzz Sawyer.