Were the Death of the Territories in the 80s Inevitable?

[pantherwagner]

By the way the newest big trend in European cities is Taiwanese bubble milk tea. The last time I went to Barcelona I saw four chains that had open in 6 months. There are a couple of stores in London with huge queues of Asian students at any hour during the weekend.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's a fun something to think about, a hypothetical scenario "if ya wheeel":

 

Imagine Vince Sr wouldn't sell the WWF to Vince Jr, and Vince Jr ends up purchasing ANOTHER promotion in the US.

 

Would would have happened? Would Vince Jr have still taken over the wrestling world?

 

Which promotions could Vince Jr have had a shot at taking over the wrestling world with?

[thebrainfollower]

I can't see anyone selling out to Vince Jr. Verne, Crockett, Watts, etc would have laughed at him.

 

He could have tried starting up a regional West Coast promotion with Hogan as his lead but that's a huge risk. He has no real assets, no known name, no home base to fall back on, only an area with a burned out wrestling fanbase. Again on his own, GCW in mid 82/83 would have crushed Vince if he had gone there and Tunney/Crockett would have stayed a firmer alliance with them probably taking the dying remnants of Detroit over.

 

He MIGHT have convinced some TV stations to give this new promotion a shot and had it take off but it's far more likely he would just have died out. But then Vince Sr. dies in mid 84 and I just don't see Skaaland/Monsoon wanting to run the wrestling business. My guess is they'd bring Vince Jr back to run the promotion for them, but not as an owner.

 

We'd see a much more conservative WWF that would probably not have expanded or gone national. And without it I think pro wrestling may have died out more or less in the early 90's and general burn out on its old school product.

[JerryvonKramer]

Interesting post Brain. You think Vince might have been able to buy GCW then? Why do you think it would have crushed him?

 

So Vince's options would have been: a West coast territory, trying to take over GCW and ... possibly swooping into Detroit?

 

There may have been one other option: St. Louis in 83 after Muchnik left. I don't know how much Vince could have grown St. Louis as it was a one-town promotion, but they had a long history of being on TV and a loyal fanbase to build from ... more importantly, anyone who was anyone still wanted to go there.

 

This is pie in the sky but ...

 

1. Acquire St. Louis

2. EXPAND the St. Louis show onto other networks nationwide

3. Start running other towns

4. Somehow gain control of NWA title

 

Aims 3 and 4 might be antithetical since he might have been blackballed from the NWA, but Vince was smart and could have picked his shots more ... expand TV into Detroit and into California, then start running towns there where there is no local promoter.

 

A base of St. Louis, Detroit and LA wouldn't be a bad starting point to launch the fullout assault later on. Although it would have taken a lot longer than it did starting from NYC.

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT: Oh, he might have also been able to cut a deal with Boesch to start running a few shows in Houston too.

[thebrainfollower]

Sorry I meant Vince going to Ohio in mid 82, which was being run by GCW but was as close to open as anything save CA.

 

I don't think Vince would have gone to St. Louis then. Maybe a year or so later if Larry still falls on his ass. I'd put money on CA if Vince goes anywhere. 2nd largest media market in the US ,and Vince is a businessman first and foremost.

[JerryvonKramer]

Who could he have realistically got to join him? Hogan? Blassie? Patterson? Buddy Rose? Maybe Ken Patera?

[thebrainfollower]

Hogan would have been nuts to try a brand new promotion. I say Hogan bites the bullet, lets Verne takes his % of the Japan cut and becomes AWA world champion. Blassie? Maybe and that would have helped in CA. Patterson I could see definitely, between him and Blassie Vince now has guys that know the territory.

Buddy Rose would stay in Portland, he was happier there. Patera' s a possibility. If Vince Jr is able to get the old man's blessing at least to do this he has the NWA's at least tacit acceptance then. If not he's toast in a year at best. I just don't see too many big name stars being willing to go on board with this. It would have forced Vince into an alliance with outlaw promotions and I could see Randy Savage being brought in to help headline as the new star Vince would build his promotion around.

[Dylan Waco]

I tend to think the only two places that could have effectively gone national at the point of Vince's expansion were the WWF and AWA, largely because of the media markets and size of the territory/population within the territory they were running. I suppose it is possible that a national promotion could have sprung out of Texas in the same rough time period, but that only works if there is some sort of incremental consolidation leading toward the eventual national push first (i.e. World Class taking all of Texas, but also merging with Watts or something of that ilk). I'm from the American South but I don't see any path from there, not even including a Crockett/GCW/Florida merger scenario, though that would be the best option. There are a lot of reasons why I think that would have been impossible (or close to it), but I"ll leave those on the shelf for now. The West Coast in theory is an opportunity, but not really. LA and San Fran were dead wrestling towns at that point and starting from scratch when going national is a guaranteed loser.

[thebrainfollower]

Agree with Dylan it's a loser almost certainly. Best choice for Vince would have been to just wait for his dad to die. Even if if took another ten years.

 

A World Class takeover of Texas makes sense but Fritz was not willing to go national and Watts hated him with a passion so no dice on that.

 

I realize all this sounds like doom and gloom and I'd making Vince out to be the guy who saved pro wrestling from a 1992 death. Maybe Ted would have kept WCW on the airwaves anyway. Maybe it would have never gotten so big for Jamie Kellner to care and pull the plug in 2001. But I doubt it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, wasn't the Mid-Atlantic - GCW - Florida merger essentially what led to NWA / WCW "going national"?

[Dylan Waco]

Dylan, wasn't the Mid-Atlantic - GCW - Florida merger essentially what led to NWA / WCW "going national"?

 

Yeah, but you have to throw in Watts too. Also the landscape had changed dramatically by that point from where it was in 83/84. You really can't compare the two time periods head-to-head even though they are very close together on a timeline.

 

And then there is the fact that NWA/WCW as a national enterprise was a disaster and complete failure until the New York created star showed up to save the day

[JerryvonKramer]

To go back to the Vince in LA scenario, what would have been stopping him getting a show onto TBS? At one point in 1985, Turner had the WWF "Black Saturday" slot, the Ole-run Georgia show and Watts's show on TBS all running -- I think 2 on Saturday and one on Sunday. Vince had the plum 6pm slot, Ole had the early morning slot and I think Watts ran on Sunday. Watts drew the highest rating (interestingly).

 

Anyway, imagine a scenario in 83/4 with Vince PITCHING Turner his vision for this new promotion. Imagine a Vince-Turner teamup, with Turner backing Vince.

 

It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility, but it would depend on that first year in LA not being a total shit show. Then again, Hollywood is RIGHT THERE, so maybe Vince might have ramped up celebrity appearances, plus some name recognition for Blassie / Patterson and it's not impossible for him to be drawing decent crowds.

 

What's more difficult for me to envision, is how he's going to get a roster together and fill out that card. SD Jones worked the West Coast earlier in his career, so he might have come, but big names who realistically would have left AWA / GCW / Crockett / Florida are thin on the ground. It's possible he might have brought in The Funks for a run. Some of the more carny travelling heels like Abdullah, Mongolian Stomper, Killer Khan etc. etc. could have been brought in for runs. But ithese are guys who'd come in for short runs, not who might form the backbone of the roster.

 

... Hmmm .. how about JESSE VENTURA?

[Dylan Waco]

I think there is very little chance Turner puts a West Coast based show on TBS at that point in time. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. TBS was a national enterprise, but had a regional flavor for years and years and years.

[JerryvonKramer]

But he did put a New York-based show on air. Granted, he was pissed off by it, but he still gave Vince the slot ... In the LA scenario this could have been a chance to expand by stealth, so rather than run the show from LA and show it on TBS, instead, play ball and run the TV taping in Techwood like Turner wanted.

 

Maybe a syndicated show form LA and a cable show from Atlanta. I'll admit that would be a logistical nightmare and transport costs alone might have sunk the promotion, but it might have been a way to get to a lot of eyeballs quickly.

[Migs]

Wouldn't Vince have a shot at basically all the guys who had been willing to work for Angelo Poffo? Orton, Garvin, etc...

 

Savage is one of the few guys who seems like a plausible Hogan replacement in this scenario.

[thebrainfollower]

Yeah Vince needs a new face and realistically Randy is about his only shot. Unless Vince does this with NWA tolerance in which case a lot of the guys who are fading in their areas might come to him. I can't see him walking out of an NWA meeting without the massive backing of the WWF.

 

Orton and Garvin would have better pushes than they did in this fantasy promotion I agree.

[JerryvonKramer]

How about this also: Andy Kaufman as a top heel in HFW (Hollywood Fantasy Wrestling). Could build an angle over him trying to beat up Elizabeth or something like that.

 

Here's another guy ... Roddy Piper. He worked for the LeBells in the 70s, and might have been attracted to an LA base to pursue his acting career. With a more conservative WWF, where would Piper have realistically gone after his GCW and Crockett runs?

 

The roster is coming along nicely.

[thebrainfollower]

Time for someone to bring this to the fantasy forum.

 

Piper vs. Savage possibly as the main feud

 

Orton Jr. and Ron Garvin

 

Blassie as the main heel manager with Jesse Ventura as his protege

 

Have Kaufman as Roddy's manager? The promos alone would be amazing.

 

If Vince is smart he would stay in the NWA. Flair vs. Savage or Piper in this era would be great.

 

I'd book a first supercard of

 

Flair vs. Garvin - NWA title

 

Savage & a mystery partner vs. Piper and Kaufman - mystery partner is either Judd Hirsch, sick of Kaufman's BS (yeah I'm kidding) or Bruiser Brody. Brody and Savage together seems interesting.

 

Ventura vs. Bob Orton Jr.

 

 

 

We'd still need about 10 other wrestlers to make this work. Who was sort of hanging around doing nothing in mid 82 and could use a change of scenery? Are there known Vince Jr loyalists other than Finkel who would have gone with him? Who was big from the CA territory that could still have drawn money in 82?

[Memphis Mark]

Some of this may have already been covered.This information is from memory and reading recollections from Jerry jarrett .

 

Portland died because Vince purchased Don Owens tv time.

 

Southwest died because Joe Blanchard could no longer afford to buy time on the USA network. Vince took his slot.

 

Florida died becauce the promption was builted around Dusty Rhodes , who jumped to Crockett.

 

Georgia died because co-owners Jim Barnett and the Briscoes sold out to Vince . The remaining owner , Ole Anderson , tried go it alone , but after about a year sold out to the Crocketts.

 

Detroit and Indianpolis ended because their product was terrible when compared to the cable programs WWF and the NWA . The Sheik and the Brusier drawing power declining qucikly as they aged .

 

St. Louis ended because Sam Munick retired . When Sam retired the the NWA began to crumbled.

 

Central States was sold to Crockett , JR. Who gave the territory back to Geigel , it quickly closed.

 

San Fran Bay Area died because Roy Shire was cheap and hard to work for. See Buddy Rose comment.

 

LA ended for lack of business. I don't know much about the LA office.

 

Continental died because Ron Fuller saw the business was declining. Ron sold his Alabama / Florida panhandle to David Woods. Ron started a new terrtory in Knoxville , which he sold to Woods. David Woods had no background in wrestlong, so he was out in business within 2 years.

 

Mid-South/ UWF ended because Bill Watts tried to copy Vince and go national with territory . The big problem Watts had is that he could not develop his own talent. The Mid- South glory years were a product of Memphis talent. Jerry Jarrett sent Bill Dundee to book Mid-South . Jarrett also sent Jim Cornette , Bobby Eaton , Dennis Condry , Rick Morton , Robert Gibson and Terry Taylor in to Watt's promotion. Watching Mid- South became exicting, you know like Memphis. Later Eddie Gilbert , Bobby Fulton , Tommy Rogers , Dutch Mantell , Koko Ware, Norvel Austin and more made their way to Mid-South. Even Sting came from Memphis. Jarrett had fired the Bladerunners , said they could not work . so Watts picked them up.

 

When Watts went national he hired Ken Mantell to bring in the FreeBirds , Chris Adams, King Parsons and alot of World Class under card talent Watts was trying to put Fritz Von Erich out of business. Watts also turned on Jerry Jarrett and Jerry Lawler and began running in Memphis. Jarrett ran Watts out of Tennessee and the Memphis talent pipeline was cut off for Watts. Talent like Bill Dundee, Dutch Mantell , Wendell Cooley , etc. went back to Memphis. This was key because Jarrett made it his mission to develop new talent , while Watts only develop Steve Williams . After the NWA and WWF raided Watts he was left with very little talent. Also Williams and Gordy went to Japan which made it worse for the Cowboy. However , Watts was able to con Jim Crockett, Jr. and unload the UWF on the Crocketts. Stupid Jim , JR. should have waited for Watts to go under and just walk into the area.

 

Calgary ended when Stu Hart sold to Vince . Stu got jobs for Brett, Davey Boy , Neidhart and Dynamite as part of the deal. Vince only want the key pieces of talent and Stampede Wrestling shut down. Within a year Vince welched on his deal with Stu. As we all know Stu tried a restart but withib Bret it was doomed to failure.

 

The AWA , World Class and Memphis deal was a real mess. Fritz sold out to Kerry and Kevin , who quickly ran the business in to the ground. Kerry called in Jerry Jarrett who purchased part of World Class . I think I read that Jarret had 50 % and the Von Erichs had 50 %. Jarrett sucessfully ran the World Class and Memphis/ CWA regions. Kerry wanted to work with Jarrett and Lawler . Kerry work alot in the CWA . Kevin did not want to work with Jarreet and went home.

 

Jarret had the slot on ESPN . He eventually combined both Memphis and Dallas under the USWA banner.

 

As for the AWA . Jarrett went to Minnesota with a million dollars . He was going to buy the AWA fron Verne Gange. The ideal was to combine the Memphis , World Class and AWA under the USWA banner , The new promotion in the middle of the country who have a national program on ESPN . They would have been the third group . Jarrett went with Verne and Greg. Greg demanded to be the booker for the group and asked for a high salary . Jarrett said no he did not want Greg in the promotion at all ,. Verne backed out of the sale and the AWA folded.

 

Back in Dallas the Von Erichs and Jarrett had a falling out of money , so the partnership ended. Kerry and Kevin restared without TV and quickly folded.

 

Jarrett returned to Tennessee and downside the USWA into a small regional promtion. Jarrett sold his 50% to Lawler. For all of this in ring talent, Lawler could not managed the business without Jarrett. Lawler sold the Memphis territory to two different groups. He sold the tv business to one buyer and the live events part to another buyer. Needless to say it all quickly fell apart and in 1997 the famous Memphis territory died .

 

As fot the NWA . , I really never though Vince hurt the NWA . The real enemies were Jim Crockett, JR. , Ric Falir and Dusty Rhodes. Jim , JR. blew a fortune on buyiny the Florida , Georgia , UWF and Central States offices. Jim , JR. also moved the office to Dallas , had privates planes And paid Rhodes and Flair a fortune. They were stories of running in La and San Fran and taking private plane to Vegas to gamble in between shows. In short Jim , JR. blew all of his family money and sold to Turner so he could escape his negative cash flow situation. Welcome to the world WCW. WCW has been covered to death.

 

Later SMW and ECW came along . Paul Heyman and Jim Cornette both decide to shut and go to work for Vince. That really is the bottom line. They just took the path of least resistance.

 

 

 

Anyway all I can recall of the top of my head. To me Vince was just an idiot who out lasted a bunch of other idiots.

[thebrainfollower]

I would say Vince was a reasonably competent businessman who beat a bunch of idiots. Sometimes Vince is a genius, other times a moron so it averages out.

[JerryvonKramer]

Time for someone to bring this to the fantasy forum.

 

Piper vs. Savage possibly as the main feud

 

Orton Jr. and Ron Garvin

 

Blassie as the main heel manager with Jesse Ventura as his protege

 

Have Kaufman as Roddy's manager? The promos alone would be amazing.

 

If Vince is smart he would stay in the NWA. Flair vs. Savage or Piper in this era would be great.

 

I'd book a first supercard of

 

Flair vs. Garvin - NWA title

 

Savage & a mystery partner vs. Piper and Kaufman - mystery partner is either Judd Hirsch, sick of Kaufman's BS (yeah I'm kidding) or Bruiser Brody. Brody and Savage together seems interesting.

 

Ventura vs. Bob Orton Jr.

 

 

 

We'd still need about 10 other wrestlers to make this work. Who was sort of hanging around doing nothing in mid 82 and could use a change of scenery? Are there known Vince Jr loyalists other than Finkel who would have gone with him? Who was big from the CA territory that could still have drawn money in 82?

Probables:

 

Pat Patterson

Ray Stevens

Billy Graham

Peter Maivia (in his late 40s)

Don Leo Jonathan (in his 50s)

The Sensational Destroyer (in his 50s)

Haystacks Callhoun (in his late 40s)

Probably could get John Tolos to do something (in his 50s)

 

Possibles:

 

Bill Eadie

Don Muraco

Jack and Jerry Brisco (see: actual history)

Jimmy Garvin

Spiros Arion (in his late 40s)

Stan Hansen (why not?)

Tully Blanchard

Tito Santana

Wahoo McDaniel

[thebrainfollower]

Sounds like a LOT of old timers, pretty much the opposite of what Vince wants.

 

I'd book with Patterson and Stevens teaming up one last time vs. the Briscos

 

Muraco I can see as a Vince Jr guy, put him with Tito for the California state championship or something

 

Wahoo vs Tully strap match assuming Wahoo is free

 

Bill Eadie vs. Jimmy Garvin

 

Stan Hansen vs. either Chavo Guerrero or Mil Mascaras

 

Don Leo, Haystacks, Destroyer and Spiros are done by 82 IMO as being of any value. I'd leave them out of this.

 

IF Vince gets a good timeslot (Maybe joining with Blanchard on USA) and local tv and the NWA doesn't declare war on these guys they might have a shot at surviving long enough for Vince Sr to die and them to all go to the WWF in mid 84.

 

Which means no Horsemen with Tully in all probability and Randy Savage instead of Hogan as a headliner. Not sure how that would work. I'd say the WWF would thrive with their old talent and the CA talent through the rest of the decade at least. Verne with Hogan, the Roadies and if you believe Greg network TV would be a hard combination to beat as easily as was done in real life.

[Memphis Mark]

I would say Vince was a reasonably competent businessman who beat a bunch of idiots. Sometimes Vince is a genius, other times a moron so it averages out.

I say Ron Fuller is smarter than all of them put together. Anyway I think Vince is a bad business man However, he has been surrounded by good people who have protected him over the years. Without Gorilla Monsoon , Pat Patterson , Jerry Jarrett , Jerry Brisco , Jim Ross and his wife helping him he would have never made it . On the other hand he hired the likes of Vince Russo and Kevin Dunn who have really damaged the wrestling business.

 

Look at his stock price price has fallen over the past few months. On March 14 , the stock price was $ 30.94 and it closed on Friday at $ 11.40. He overspend on his WWE network and over promised stockholders on the TV rights deal. Will the stock go back ? I don't know I just glad I don't have any .

[JerryvonKramer]

Some leisure-time reading for you Mark: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20939-vince-mcmahon-reallly-a-genius/

[Migs]

How about this also: Andy Kaufman as a top heel in HFW (Hollywood Fantasy Wrestling). Could build an angle over him trying to beat up Elizabeth or something like that.

 

Here's another guy ... Roddy Piper. He worked for the LeBells in the 70s, and might have been attracted to an LA base to pursue his acting career. With a more conservative WWF, where would Piper have realistically gone after his GCW and Crockett runs?

 

The roster is coming along nicely.

 

If this is late 1983 or early 1984, Kaufman is sick or dead.