JerryvonKramer Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Watching the Greg Gagne Guest Booker made me think about whether the territories might have survived somehow. Is it a given that the rise of one big national company leads necessarily to the decline and fall of smaller regional ones? Vince was extremely agressive. According to Greg, he did things like book key venues for 3 years and priced out the competition. He also poached a lot of talent. But was it the case that Vince was going up against these promotions head-to-head in their own back yard and out drawing them? It sometimes seems more like a case of business sabotage rather than one company doing someone better than another. The strategy of most of the other companies seemed to have two prongs: 1. Band together 2. Follow Vince's example and expand I think both of these things had negative consequences. Banding together never worked with the big egos involved, and expansion attempts were costly and often doomed to failure. I think you can see it with AWA, Mid South and to an extent Crockett too. Wouldn't all of these companies have been better served focusing on their core markets? Did the fact that Vince had national TV affect their local gates? If so, why? Was Vince able to outdraw, say, Watts in New Orleans or Fritz in Texas or Graham in Florida? (etc. etc.) If so, how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Vince signed the biggest draws in those towns, then ran shows with them as headliners under the WWF brand. Without looking anything up, if the WWF outdrew Mid South in New Orleans, it's probably because they were running a show with JYD on top. Territories were doomed to fail because of cable television, but I do think at one point there were enough wrestling fans to support 2-3 national promotions that could all do reasonably well. In many ways, JCP is the biggest tragedy of all, because they had a fiercely loyal fanbase and while it was a declining company, WCW still had a good base to work from but scared most of them away. There are huge numbers of wrestling fans out there that didn't jump to Vince. They just stopped watching wrestling all together as he swallowed things whole. That extends all the way to 2001, when we still don't have any idea where the 2.5 million fans that watched Nitro every week went when WCW died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Territories were doomed to fail because of cable television Why was this the case? What happened? Let's say you were a guy in, I dunno, Jackson, Mississippi. Did the fact that you got cable suddenly mean you stopped getting or watching local TV? I'm just trying to understand first why the rise of a national WWF would lead to the decline of regional promotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Fans had no basis of comparison before because most only saw one type of wrestling. With cable, they see a show with bigger stars, better production and more glitz and glamour. The local guys can't compete with that because they don't have the financial resources to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 So it's mainly a case of the national product making the guys on the regional rosters look like small fry? "Why should we care about these guys in the minor leagues when I could watch the big boys"? Is that true though? Did AWA fans suddenly start thinking Bockwinkel, the Gagnes, Rick Martel and Jerry Blackwell were small fry? Perhaps the AWA is a bad example because they were so big anyway and had ESPN, how about Lawler in Memphis? Or all of the guys who weren't JYD and who Vince didn't poach from Watts in that region? Or the Von Erichs? Also, how much can we expect being "part of the NWA" mitigates against that effect? "These guys are wrestling here in Florida, but they are part of an a nationwide major league in which anyone can rise to be the champion". Finally -- and you alluded to this yourself Loss -- there is the TYPE of fan. We all know about Black Saturday. Vince's cartoon-y product surely wasn't going to get over with all of the fans. Just playing devil's advocate a bit to test this claim that cable = doom for the territories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 The territories started dying when Ted Turner put up the satellite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Staples Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Didn't cable also kill the ability of the wrestler to move from territory to territory and start fresh with that region's fans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Cable changed television in general. With cable and national syndication it was inevitable the territories would die Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookeighana Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 And keep in mind that a lot of territories were getting paid by local television stations (and in turn local advertisers) to tape & show pro-wrestling. Vince comes in and promises to pay the stations (syndication) fees for them to show his product. Suddenly that stream of revenue is drying up, and as others pointed out - it's a glitzy product with some big, charismatic stars. As WCW proved, there was certainly room for two major groups (and third/fourth niche ones) in a national format, but the television revolution changed things incredibly. I put together a year-by-year look at (Domestic) WWF Television: https://sites.google.com/site/chrisharrington/wwftv One thing that hit me was how Vince really embraced the trends - he went from local, to syndication, to cable at the right times. If a National broadcast network in the 80s had ever had interest in showing wrestling weekly (not just periodic specials), I wonder how much that would have changed things too. Essentially, it was there through syndication (WWF Superstars on my local Fox station every Saturday!), but could you imagine a weekly nationally broadcast (non-cable) primetime wrestling show in the 80s? (This is probably where someone is going to give an example of exactly that proving my ignorance.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 That's really great stuff Chris. So is the conclusion to draw from all of this that the only way any one of the territories could survive is if they either banded together to form a national conglomerate (which they tried to do) or expanded themselves? Here's one possible alternative: they get national TV but still promote regionally. Let's stick with the example of Crockett: why was it important for them to start trying to get gates up in New York? When you look at the costs involved for trying to run towns outside your regular loop, expansion attempts are going to be expensive and loss-making. Are there any examples of Crockett or Watts for that matter going into a new region and making decent money? Also, does the TV station really CARE where the shows are being run? Do the people in the audience sitting at home care where the show is coming from each week? Let's look at 1988 for Crockett, I've bolded what seem like stabs at branching out from their regular loop. JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - January 1, 1988 (12,700) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - 1988 JCP @ Asheville, NC - Civic Center - January 2, 1988 JCP @ Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - January 2, 1988 (12,457) JCP @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - January 3, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - January 3, 1988 JCP @ Macon, GA - Coliseum - January 4, 1988 JCP @ Spartanburg, SC - Memorial Auditroium - January 5, 1988 JCP @ Albany, GA - Gray Civic Center - January 5, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - January 6, 1988 JCP @ Jacksonville, FL - Veterans Memorial Coliseum - January 7, 1988 JCP @ Newton, NC - January 8, 1988 Canceled due to snow JCP @ Huntington, WV - Civic Center - January 9, 1988 JCP @ Greenville, SC - January 10, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - January 10, 1988 JCP @ Columbus, OH - January 10, 1988 (2,300) JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - Cumberland County Memorial Arena - January 11, 1988 JCP @ North Wilkesboro, NC - January 12, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - January 13, 1988 JCP @ Fishman, VA - January 14, 1988 (1,200) JCP @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - January 14, 1988 (4,000) JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - January 15, 1988 JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - January 15, 1988 (6,000) JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Arena - January 16, 1988 (7,500) JCP @ Charleston, WV - January 17, 1988 (matinee) Television taping JCP @ St. Louis, MO - Arena - January 17, 1988 (5,900) The show started an hour late JCP @ Columbia, SC - January 18, 1988 JCP @ Georgetown, SC - High School Gym - January 20, 1988 JCP @ Honolulu, HI - Blaisdell Arena - January 20, 1988 (7,200; near sell out) JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - January 21, 1988 (3,000) JCP @ Chesterfield, SC - January 21, 1988 JCP @ Elberton, GA - January 22, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - January 1988 JCP @ Lakeland, FL - January 23, 1988 JCP @ Cincinnati, OH - January 23, 1988 JCP @ Lakeland, FL - January 23, 1988 JCP @ Greenville, SC - January 25, 1988 JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - January 25, 1988 JCP @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - January 26, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - January 27, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - January 1988 (16,002) JCP @ Hammond, IN - Civic Center - January 28, 1988 JCP @ Harrisonburg, VA - High School - January 28, 1988 JCP @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - January 29, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - January 1988 JCP @ Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - January 30, 1988 JCP @ Newton, NC - February 1, 1988 JCP @ Spartanburg, SC - February 2, 1988 JCP @ Miami, FL - Knight Center - February 2, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - February 3, 1988 JCP @ Jacksonville, FL - Memorial Coliseum - February 3, 1988 JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - February 6, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - February 1988 JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - Cumberland County Memorial Arena - February 7, 1988 JCP @ Columbia, SC - February 7, 1988 JCP @ Macon, GA - Coliseum - February 8, 1988 JCP @ Albany, GA - Civic Center - February 9, 1988 JCP @ Columbus, GA - Municipal Auditorium - February 11, 1988 JCP @ Raliegh, NC - February 11, 1988 JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - February 12, 1988 (about 10,000) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - February 1988 JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Arena - February 13, 1988 (6,000) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - February 1988 JCP @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - February 14, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - February 14, 1988 JCP @ Albuquerque, NM - Tingley Coiseum - February 16, 1988 JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - February 17, 1988 JCP @ Sioux City, IA - Municipal Auditorium - February 18, 1988 (2,750; sell out) JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - February 19, 1988 JCP @ Hillsville, VA - February 19, 1988 (900) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - February 1988 JPC @ Charleston, WV - Civic Center - February 20, 1988 JCP @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - February 20, 1988 (8,000) JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - February 21, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Long Island, NY - Nassau Coliseum - February 21, 1988 JCP @ Poughkeepsie, NY - Mid-Hudson Civic Center - February 22, 1988 JCP @ Savannah, GA - Civic Center - February 23, 1988 JCP @ Asbury Park, NJ - Convention Hall - February 23, 1988 JCP @ Elizabeth, NJ - February 23, 1988 The show was cancelled due to almost no advance sales JCP @ Akron, OH - James Rhodes Arena - February 25, 1988 JCP @ Cincinnati, OH - Cincinnati Gardens - February 26, 1988 (3,500) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - February 27, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - February 27, 1988 (10,000) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - February 28, 1988 (7,300) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - March 2, 1988 JCP @ Harrisonburg, VA - High School - March 3, 1988 JCP @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - March 4, 1988 (3,000) JCP @ Houston, TX - Sam Houston Coliseum - March 4, 1988 (3,000) JCP @ Louisville, KY - Convention Center - March 5, 1988 JCP @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - March 6, 1988 JCP @ St. Louis, MO - Arena - March 6, 1988 JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - March 10, 1988 JCP @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - March 12, 1988 JCP @ Columbus, OH - Fairgrounds Coliseum - March 13, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - March 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - March 13, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - March 14, 1988 JCP @ Reno, NV - Lawlor Events Center - March 15, 1988 JCP @ Columbia, SC - Township Auditorium - March 15, 1988 JCP @ San Francisco, CA - Civic Auditorium - March 16, 1988 (4,500) JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - March 17, 1988 JCP @ Cincinnati, OH - Cincinnati Gardens - March 18, 1988 JCP @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - March 19, 1988 JCP @ St. Louis, MO - March 1988 JCP @ Charleston, WV - Civic Center Coliseum - March 20, 1988 (matinee) (3,000) JCP @ Peoria, IL - Civic Center - March 20, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - March 1988 JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - March 20, 1988 JCP @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - March 25, 1988 JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - March 26, 1988 (2,000) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - March 1988 Clash of the Champions - Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - March 27, 1988 (6,000) JCP @ Greenville, SC - Memorial Auditorium - March 28, 1988 JCP @ Columbia, SC - Township Auditorium - March 29, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - March 1988 JCP @ Spartanburg, SC - Memorial Auditorium - March 31, 1988 JCP @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - April 1, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - April 3, 1988 JCP @ Long Island, NY - Nassau Coliseum - April 8, 1988 (4,500) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - April 1988 JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - April 9, 1988 (matinee) (4,000) JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - April 9, 1988 (9,000) JCP @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - April 10, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Las Cruces, NM - Pan American Center - April 11, 1988 JCP @ Albuquerque, NM - Tingley Coliseum - April 12, 1988 JCP @ Greenwood, SC - April 14, 1988 JCP @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - April 15, 1988 JCP @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - April 16, 1988 (3,500) JCP @ Cincinnati, OH - Cincinnati Gardens - April 16, 1988 JCP @ Asheville, NC - Civic Center - April 17, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - April 17, 1988 JCP @ Miami, FL - Knight Center - April 19, 1988 (4,000) JCP @ Jacksonville, FL - Memorial Coliseum - April 20, 1988 JCP @ Harrisonburg, VA - High School - April 21, 1988 JCP @ Sumter, SC - April 21, 1988 JCP @ Charleston, SC - Civic Center - April 24, 1988 (matinee) (2,500) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - April 24, 1988 (1,400) JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - Cumberland County Memorial Arena - April 25, 1988 JCP @ Nashville, TN - Municipal Auditorium - April 25, 1988 (2,500) JCP @ Chattanooga, TN - UTC Arena - April 26, 1988 (2,500) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - April 27, 1988 JCP @ Rock Hill, SC - Winthrop Coliseum - April 28, 1988 JCP @ Washington DC - Armory - April 29, 1988 JCP @ Norfolk, VA - April 29, 1988 JCP @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Arena - April 30, 1988 (4,000) JCP @ Laurinburg, NC - Pate Stadium - April 30, 1988 (620) JCP @ Indianapolis, IN - Convention Center - May 1, 1988 JCP @ Bishopville, SC - May 2, 1988 JCP @ Schallote, NC - West Brunswick High School - May 3, 1988 JCP @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - May 5, 1988 (1,900) JCP @ Johnstown, PA - War Memorial Arena - May 5, 1988 (680) JCP @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - May 6, 1988 (3,800) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - May 7, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - May 7, 1988 (5,500) JCP @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - May 8, 1988 (matinee) (3,000) JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - May 9, 1988 NWA @ Miami, FL - Knight Center - May 10, 1988 (2,943) JCP @ Cherryville, NC - May 10, 1988 JCP @ Tallahassee, FL - Leon County Civic Center - May 11, 1988 JCP @ Walterboro, SC - May 12, 1988 JCP @ Weslaco, TX - High School Stadium - May 12, 1988 JCP @ Hammond, IN - May 13, 1988 JCP @ Houston, TX - Sam Houston Coliseum - May 13, 1988 (4,800) JCP @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - May 14, 1988 JCP @ Wilmington, NC - Legion Stadium - May 15, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Asheville, NC - Civic Center - May 15, 1988 (500) JCP @ Greenville, SC - May 16, 1988 JCP @ West Jefferson, NC - May 17, 1988 JCP @ Fisherville, VA - May 19, 1988 (3,500) JCP @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - May 20, 1988 (4,000) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - May 21, 1988 JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - May 21, 1988 (7,000) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - May 22, 1988 (7,300) JCP @ Hartsville, SC - May 23, 1988 JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - Cumberland County Memorial Arena - May 23, 1988 JCP @ Elberton, GA - May 24, 1988 JCP @ Hillsville, VA - May 24, 1988 (800) JCP @ Louisville, KY - Commonwealth Convention Center - May 26, 1988 JCP @ St. Louis, MO - Arena - May 27, 1988 (3,100) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - May 28, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Charleston, WV - May 28, 1988 (2,500) JCP @ Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - May 29, 1988 (4,000) JCP @ Union, SC - May 30, 1988 JCP @ Savannah, GA - Civic Center - May 30, 1988 JCP @ Sumter, SC - Exhibition Center Arena - May 31, 1988 JCP @ Bluefield, WV - Brushfork Armory - June 2, 1988 JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - June 3, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - June 4, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - June 4, 1988 JCP @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - June 5, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Columbus, OH - June 5, 1988 JCP @ Greenville, SC - June 6, 1988 JCP @ Columbia, SC - June 7, 1988 Clash of the Champions II "Miami Mayhem" - Miami, FL - Knight Center - June 8, 1988 JCP @ Tallahassee, FL - Leon County Civic Center - June 9, 1988 JCP @ Houston, TX - Sam Houston Coliseum - June 10, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - June 11, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - June 11, 1988 (5,500) JCP @ Florence, SC - Civic Center - June 11, 1988 JCP @ Asheville, NC - Civic Center - June 12, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Albany, GA - Civic Center - June 12, 1988 JCP @ Columbus, GA - June 13, 1988 JCP @ Spartanburg, SC - Memorial Auditorium - June 14, 1988 JCP @ Harrisonburg, VA - High School Gym - June 16, 1988 JCP @ Charleston, WV - Civic Center - June 17, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - June 18, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - June 18, 1988 (5,900) JCP @ Johnson City, TN - Freedom Hall - June 19, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Montgomery, AL - Garrett Coliseum - June 20, 1988 JCP @ Birmingham, AL - Civic Center - June 21, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - June 22, 1988 NWA @ Nashville, TN - Municipal Auditorium - June 23, 1988 JCP @ Charlottesville, VA - University Hall - June 24, 1988 JCP @ Orlando, FL - Orange County Convention Center - June 26, 1988 (6,000) JCP @ Greenville, SC - Memorial Auditorium - June 27, 1988 (4,700; a few hundred short of a sell out) JCP @ Columbia, SC - Township Auditorium - June 28, 1988 (sell out) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - June 29, 1988 JCP @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - July 1, 1988 JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Memorial Stadium - July 2, 1988 (about 10,000) JCP @ Amarillo, TX - Civic Center - July 3, 1988 (6,000; near sell out) JCP @ Dallas, TX - Reunion Arena - July 4, 1988 (5,000) JCP @ Miami, FL - Knight Center - July 5, 1988 JCP @ Tampa, FL - Stadium - July 6, 1988 JCP @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - July 7, 1988 JCP @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - July 8, 1988 JCP @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - July 9, 1988 (6,500) The Main Event - 7/10/88 - hosted by Jim Ross & Tony Schiavone - hype show for the Great American Bash pay-per-view later that night Great American Bash 88 - Baltimore, MD - Arena - July 10, 1988 (13,000) JCP @ Salisbury, MD - July 11, 1988 JCP @ Huntsville, AL - July 12, 1988 (3,000) JCP @ Chattanooga, TN - July 14, 1988 JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - July 15, 1988 JCP @ Greensboro, NC - War Memorial Stadium - July 16, 1988 JCP @ Charleston, WV - Civic Center - July 17, 1988 (6,500) JCP @ Columbus, GA - Municipal Auditorium - July 18, 1988 (4,200) JCP @ Macon, GA - Coliseum - July 19, 1988 JCP @ Cincinnati, OH - Cincinnati Gardens - July 21, 1988 (4,000) JCP @ St. Louis, MO - Arena - July 22, 1988 (6,000) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - July 1988 JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - July 23, 1988 (7,520) JCP @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - July 24, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Johnson City, TN - Freedom Hall - July 24, 1988 JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - Cumberland County Memorial Arena - July 25, 1988 JCP @ Savannah, GA - Civic Center - July 26, 1988 JCP @ Jacksonville, FL - Memorial Coliseum - July 27, 1988 JCP @ Daytona Beach, FL - Ocean Center - July 28, 1988 (5,500) JCP @ Houston, TX - Sam Houston Coliseum - July 29, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - August 1988 JCP @ Landover, MD - Capital Centre - July 30, 1988 JCP @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Arena - July 31, 1988 (7,000) JCP @ Milwaukee, WI - Mecca - August 1, 1988 JCP @ Columbus, GA - Municipal Auditorium - August 1988 JCP @ Sioux City, IA - Municipal Auditorium - August 2, 1988 JCP @ Seattle, WA - Arena - August 3, 1988 JCP @ Las Vegas, NV - Thomas & Mack Center - August 4, 1988 (3,200) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - August 1988 JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - August 5, 1988 JCP @ Oakland, CA - Kaiser Convention Center - August 6, 1988 (6,000) JCP @ Kansas City, MO - Kemper Arena - August 7, 1988 (6,800) JCP @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - August 12, 1988 (9,500) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Center Stage Theatre - August 1988 JCP @ Macon, GA - Coliseum - August 13, 1988 JCP @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - August 18, 1988 JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - August 19, 1988 (13,000; near sell out) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Center Stage Theatre - August 1988 JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - August 20, 1988 JCP @ Cincinatti, OH - Cincinnati Gardens - August 21, 1988 JCP @ Sumter, SC - Fairgrounds Exhibition Center - August 23, 1988 (sell out) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - August 24, 1988 JCP @ Columbus, GA - Municipal Auditorium - August 25, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - August 26, 1988 (13,700) JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - August 27, 1988 (13,500) JCP @ Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - August 28, 1988 (6,000) JCP @ Greenville, SC - August 29, 1988 JCP @ Savannah, GA - Civic Center - August 30, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - August 31, 1988 JCP @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - September 1, 1988 JCP @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - September 2, 1988 JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - September 3, 1988 (11,000) JCP @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Arena - September 4, 1988 (7,500) JCP @ Covington, GA - September 5, 1988 (5,500) JCP @ Seattle, WA - Sports Arena - September 1988 Clash of the Champions III "Fall Brawl" - Albany, GA - Civic Center - September 7, 1988 (3,700) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - September 1988 JCP @ Houston, TX - Sam Houston Coliseum - September 9, 1988 (3,000) JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - September 10, 1988 (6,532) JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - Cumberland County Memorial Arena - September 11, 1988 (matinee) JCP @ Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - September 11, 1988 (2,500) JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - September 16, 1988 JCP @ Charleston, SC - Johnson-Hagwood Stadium - September 17, 1988 JCP @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - September 18, 1988 (3,200) JCP @ Frederick, MD - Community College Fieldhouse - September 23, 1988 JCP @ Washington DC - Armory - September 24, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - September 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - September 25, 1988 (6,700) JCP @ Columbus, GA - Municipal Auditorium - September 27, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - September 1988 JCP @ Hammond, IN - Civic Center - September 29, 1988 JCP @ Winnipeg, Manitoba - September 30, 1988 (4,000) JCP @ Brandon, Manitoba - October 1, 1988 (1,000) JCP @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - October 2, 1988 JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - October 1988 JCP @ Macon, GA - October 4, 1988 (2,900) JCP @ Raleigh, NC - October 6, 1988 (700) JCP @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - October 7, 1988 JCP @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - October 9, 1988 JCP @ Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - October 9, 1988 (4,000) JCP @ Greenville, SC - October 10, 1988 JCP @ Fayetteville, NC - October 11, 1988 (300) JCP @ Charleston, SC - October 1988 JCP @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - October 15, 1988 (4,418) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - October 1988 JCP @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - October 16, 1988 (6,000) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - October 1988 JCP @ Saginaw, MI - October 20, 1988 JCP @ Lansing, MI - October 1988 JCP @ Detroit, MI - Coboa Arena - October 21, 1988 (1,300) JCP @ Cincinnati, OH - October 22, 1988 (1,800) JCP @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - October 1988 JCP @ Jackson, MS - October 27, 1988 JCP @ New Orleans, LA - Municipal Auditorium - October 29, 1988 JCP @ Alexandria, LA - October 30, 1988 (2,792) JCP @ Savannah, GA - Civic Center - November 1, 1988 NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - November 2, 1988 NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - November 3, 1988 NWA @ Louisville, KY - November 4, 1988 NWA @ Dayton, OH - UD Arena - November 5, 1988 NWA @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - November 6, 1988 (matinee) NWA @ Johnson City, TN - Freedom Hall - November 6, 1988 NWA @ Greenwood, SC - Civic Center - November 9, 1988 NWA @ Johnstown, PA - Cambria County War Memorial Arena - November 10, 1988 (1,549) NWA @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - November 11, 1988 NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - November 1988 NWA @ Johnstown, PA - War Memorial Arena - November 10, 1988 (1,549) NWA @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - November 11, 1988 (3,400) NWA @ Columbus, OH - Fairgrounds Coliseum - November 12, 1988 (2,500-3,000) NWA @ Huntington, WV - Civic Center - November 13, 1988 (matinee) (5,000) NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - November 14, 1988 NWA @ Albany, GA - Civic Center - November 15, 1988 NWA @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - November 16, 1988 NWA @ Norfolk, VA - Scope - November 17, 1988 NWA @ Washington DC - Armory - November 18, 1988 NWA @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - November 19, 1988 (5,000) NWA @ ? - November 1988 NWA @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - November 20, 1988 NWA @ Sumter, SC - November 22, 1988 NWA @ Baltimore, MD - Arena - November 23, 1988 (9,000) NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - November 24, 1988 (matinee) NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - November 1988 NWA @ Atlanta, GA - Omni - November 24, 1988 (8,000) NWA @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - November 25, 1988 (5,000) NWA @ Greensboro, NC - Coliseum - November 26, 1988 (7,500) NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - November 27, 1988 NWA @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - November 27, 1988 (3,500) NWA @ Macon, GA - Coliseum - November 28, 1988 NWA @ Las Vegas, NV - Showboat - November 29, 1988 (2,500) NWA @ San Francisco, CA - Civic Auditorium - November 30, 1988 (2,700) NWA @ Albuquerque, NM - Tingley Coliseum - December 1, 1988 (4,700) NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - December 1988 NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - December 1988 NWA @ Amarillo, TX - Civic Center - December 2, 1988 NWA @ Houston, TX - Sam Houston Coliseum - December 3, 1988 (1,200) NWA @ Lubbock, TX - December 4, 1988 (900) NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - December 5, 1988 NWA @ Columbus, GA - December 6, 1988 (2,300) Clash of the Champions IV "Seasons Beatings" - Chattanooga, TN - December 7, 1988 NWA @ Hampton, VA - Coliseum - December 9, 1988 NWA @ Philadelphia, PA - Civic Center - December 10, 1988 (1,626) (the smallest Philadelphia wrestling crowd in decades) NWA @ ? - December 1988 NWA @ Richmond, VA - Coliseum - December 11, 1988 (the smallest Richmond wrestling crowd ever) NWA @ Atlanta, GA - WTBS Studios - December 12, 1988 NWA @ Gainesville, GA - Georgia Mountains Center - December 14, 1988 NWA @ Raleigh, NC - Dorton Arena - December 15, 1988 NWA @ Winston-Salem, NC - December 16, 1988 (3,000) NWA @ Greenville, SC - December 25, 1988 (matinee) NWA @ Charlotte, NC - Coliseum - December 25, 1988 (5,000) Starrcade 88 "True Gritt" - Norfolk, VA - Scope - December 26, 1988 (10,000) NWA @ Washington DC - Armory - December 27, 1988 (1,800) NWA @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - December 28, 1988 (2,987) NWA @ Milwaukee, WI - Mecca - December 29, 1988 NWA @ St. Louis, MO - Keil Auditorium - December 30, 1988 (4,500) I'd be interested to know if the bolded shows alone created a net profit or a net loss. Hard to believe that lugging a ring all the way to Iowa for a show which attracted less than 3,000 fans was worth the time, money and effort. They didn't do bad in Detroit though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Allen Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 I grew up in Florida but I loved watching AWA and World Class. I never had the chance to go to a live show but I still watched every week. It didn't bother me that they talked about Ft. Worth, TX or St. Paul, MN. I felt like I had a window into another world. I think a well-done regional show could support a small, semi-permanent crew and some rotating guests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 In short, Jerry, yes, the death of territories was an inevitability. If it wasn't Vince, it would have been someone else. Vince wasn't even the first one to attempt expansion, when TBS went national, Ole was running shows in Ohio and Michigan and drawing big numbers. I don't know if cable is entirely to blame for it, although it was definitely a factor. I think it's more accurate to say that most of the territory promoters weren't able to properly promote and market on a national level. The story has always been that Watts failed because the oil market dried up, but can anyone who was watching at that time verify that? What was the overall opinion of the UWF compared to WWF or Crockett? The best days of the AWA, World Class, and Continental were already behind them, when they tried making a serious play at it. That pretty much leaves Memphis and Portland as the survivors, they both lasted into the 1990's, and they were both smart enough to know that they didn't have the onions to go head to head with Vince. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 Don't know if you were around for the very long, heated and at times nasty debate over Mid-South's decline and oil, Mike, but here you go -- it's as full an exploration of the issue as you're likely to find on a wrestling forum: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5538251 I recently heard Meltzer advance a theory that isn't covered in that debate (it was the Cornette interview): that people turned off UWF because it was number 3, and people don't want to watch number 3 no matter how hot the product was. -------- That pretty much leaves Memphis and Portland as the survivors, they both lasted into the 1990's, and they were both smart enough to know that they didn't have the onions to go head to head with Vince. How much did Vince go after them I wonder? And how well did WWF draw in Memphis or Portland against them? There is an argument to say that Jarrett would understand how to appeal to fans in Memphis better than Vince and the same with Don Owens in Portland. If every territory had stuck to its guns and focused on their core market, perhaps there would have been enough pie to go round for everyone. Didn't Memphis and Portland both suffer quite badly in the late 80s though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 New York. Then,as is now. Is the top media market in the US. LA,Chicago and San Fran were 2,3 & 4 at the time and still 2,3 & 6 today. Crockett needed to go to these areas in order to try and attract better advertising and sponsor's. In theory,not so much in practice. There is also a large population to potentially draw from for live events. Once you get the guys and equipment out to these locations.It makes sense to run some other shows relatively nearby to offset costs which is why locations like Poughkeepsie, Asbury Park, Hammond, Peoria and Reno are on the list. Some places like New Mexico are not huge markets in relation to say NY or LA. But as a large area that is "fresh turf" with no other companies running there. It could be worth a go at turning it into a JCP stronghold, especially as it borders on 2 former NWA strongholds, Amarillo and El Paso. The City's in Ohio and Michigan. Crockett "theoretically inherited" from GCW, but this was technically an area that was up for grabs at the start of the war as their respective territory's had collapsed and after the success of WM 3. Crockett would have been a fool not try and run a show in Detroit. Which was also a top media market. If JCP wanted to stay in business, they had too expand. The Carolina's, Virginia, Georgia & Florida are a great base, but they eventually burnt them out which would have happened much sooner without expansion. There was no reason that JCP couldn't have cracked these markets, because they had had some great success with expansion. Chicago was an AWA town. Vince went in first, but Crockett followed. And although they got relegated to the smaller UIC Pavillion. They had multiple sell out's and Chicago remained a strong town for WCW up until the bitter end. Philly was a hardcore WWF town, but Crockett gained a foothold. Although like in Chicago, they were forced to use a smaller building. Still they did some good to great business in the late 80's/early 90's and during the Nitro era. In fact apart from 94-97 when the hardcore fans turned to ECW. Philly was a strong JCP/WCW town. Baltimore was also a hardcore WWF town and is definitely the one town that they stole from Vince. They did booming business there during hot periods. Decent business during cold periods and like Chicago, Baltimore stuck with them to the bitter end. What they needed was at least another dozen cities like the above 3 outside the core territory. Which they might have been able to manage with a more focused plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 Really good post Johnny Guitar, thanks for that. One of the difficulties for me when I look at Crockett's schedules from the 80s is that they don't really tour an area, it's always one or two shows, then back to South Carolina or Georgia, then maybe one show in Detroit, then back to SC and GA, then two or three shows a thousand miles away, etc. It never looks very coordinated. I understand that with the show from TBS they had to "go back to base" as it were, every week. But it looks to me like they only ever crack individual towns rather than areas: Baltimore like you say, Philly, Chicago to an extent, they seem to have made a really decent fist of Detroit too. But that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 Part of the appeal to Memphis and Portland is that the local wrestling was huge in those two areas, because there weren't many major sports teams during theose times. Portland had the Blazers, but that was it. So, wrestling was *THE* big thing in those cities. Taking a gander through Graham's WWF results from 1987 through 1990, Vince only Portland about half a dozen times or so per year at the Memorial Coliseum, with the highest number recorded being 6,000 fans, and most of the listings from Graham being between 2,000 and 4,500. So it seems safe to say that it wasn't a huge priority market for Vince, and he wasn't making a killing there. Memphis, Vince basically stayed clear of, only running once or twice per year, and the listed gates are nowhere close the 11,000 sellouts that Jarrett and Lawler could draw. It's also worth nothing that Lawler got one over on Vince by winning a lawsuit where he claimed Vince was falsely advertising one of his house shows by saying "The King" would be there (meaning Harley) and making fans think that Lawler would be at the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 Portland was also aided by the athletic commission being the one place that cracked down on steroids. At some point Vince stopped going to Oregon entirely. (Also, Piper refused to compete against Don Owen.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 It seems like Memphis and Portland are truly exceptions to the general rule. Greg Gange's idea that every territory hunkering down and concentrating on its own core market wouldn't work against Vince in the longterm since most territories didn't enjoy the exceptional circumstances of either Memphis or Portland. Let's say they tried that in the AWA or Mid-South, they would have been smashed by Vince and eroded by competing interests (e.g. other sports) eventually right? Seems like the MAIN thing that Memphis and Portland enjoyed was the fact that they were not those other territorities. Vince could afford not to make them a priority so he left them alone. On a side note: Loss, I made a grammatical error in the thread title that is REALLY bugging me. It should be "Was" not "Were". It's killing me. Any chance you might be able to edit it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 It seems like Memphis and Portland are truly exceptions to the general rule. Greg Gange's idea that every territory hunkering down and concentrating on its own core market wouldn't work against Vince in the longterm since most territories didn't enjoy the exceptional circumstances of either Memphis or Portland.This isn't really possible when Vince can just swoop in and steal their big stars. The reason that Memphis stayed alive is that Jerry Lawler was a part owner and wasn't going to leave. Portland lasted longer than most of the others because Don Owen owned the building he ran his shows in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 What happened to Memphis during the period in which Lawler was AWA champ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 It seems like Memphis and Portland are truly exceptions to the general rule. Greg Gange's idea that every territory hunkering down and concentrating on its own core market wouldn't work against Vince in the longterm since most territories didn't enjoy the exceptional circumstances of either Memphis or Portland. Like goc already pointed out, Lawler was part owner of the company, so he had a good reason to stay in Memphis. The only big name from Portland that I'm recalling Vince taking is Billy Jack Haynes, and he's already been making the rounds long before Vince snagged him in '86, he'd done stints in Florida, WCCW, and Crockett. Like Greg says in the interview, Vince was playing dirty in order to weaken the competition, so Verne "hunkering down" wasn't going to matter with Vince stealing the key talent, and getting exclusive locks on the arenas he ran, and stealing his syndicated TV from underneath him. That's also why I asked about Watts and what the general opinion on the UWF was at the time? Was it considered on the level of WWF or Crockett, or considered minor league a la AWA and WCCW by that time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 One of the difficulties for me when I look at Crockett's schedules from the 80s is that they don't really tour an area, it's always one or two shows, then back to South Carolina or Georgia, then maybe one show in Detroit, then back to SC and GA, then two or three shows a thousand miles away, etc. It never looks very coordinated. I understand that with the show from TBS they had to "go back to base" as it were, every week. But it looks to me like they only ever crack individual towns rather than areas: Baltimore like you say, Philly, Chicago to an extent, they seem to have made a really decent fist of Detroit too. But that's it. Neither company was touring an area back then. The WWF's schedule was all over the place. Much worse than JCP's. It was completely in-humane with no rhyme or reason to it. The top Crockett guys also had access to the private planes. They weren't going to be driving to all the towns in the Michigan loop. Why do a spot show in Saginaw,when you can fly back to party in Detroit. It's also worth remembering that just because WWF and JCP were expanding not every area wanted or needed them. Or were really worth going to. The Mountain states. Montana,The Dakotas etc hadn't had a territory in decades and due to population size and travel distance weren't really financially viable. The South never really embraced the WWF until the attitude era and Cali never really accepted WCW until the Nitro era. Some towns were so burnt out or pissed off that nothing was going to re-heat them until a decent amount of time had passed to build up new fans. Detroit, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Dallas and so on... Missouri (outside of St Louis) was the shits. Even when it had a territory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 This is great stuff Johnny Guitar. Do you think a crowd of 7,500 in Detroit in 1988 is actually really impressive? I think it's borderline astonishing given that sometimes they'd struggle to do those sort of numbers at The Omni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Solomon Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 I think there would have been a more natural and gradual evolution of the business if Vince hadn't of gone National Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 7500 was totally a good crowd. A) they were running Cobo Hall,which had about 13000 full capacity . And You need to forget that whole bullshit that is was a PACKED house EVERY night. They drew some great numbers at the Omni in 88. 16000 in fact which is a sellout. They also drew some low figures. The tides were changing. Monthly at the same venue wasn't going to cut it for large arena's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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