WWF fans vs WCW fans

[King Solomon]

Going to shows for both Fed's in the 80's and 90's I saw a big difference in the fan bas and their tastes. WWF was like watching powder puff football, the NWA was like watching the old NFC east smash mouth football.

[Matt D]

A match to point to as an example of this divide might be the Rock N Roll Express vs Heavenly Bodies match at WWF Survivor Series 1993. Just an awesome match, four workers going all out and having great performances. I prefer this match over a lot of other hyped WWF-tag matches. The crowd just did not care, they treated the four guys with silence. In WCW [and other places], this same match would have had screaming fans jumping out of their seats.

The match wasn't built up much, if at all, though it was pretty surreal to hear Vince talking about the RnRs on Raw. There was no angle behind it. RnRs weren't national since, what, early 90? A lot of the kids watching in 93 had gotten in after that. I was in that crowd and was vaguely excited to see York Foundation member Richard Morton. It was Boston.

 

I think it's not that WWF crowds hated wrestling but maybe that they needed more than wrestling for wrestling's sake. They needed context and for it to matter to them.

[Loss]

I'd agree with that. I look at Benoit vs Scorpio in Asheville, NC for SuperBrawl III. That's another example. Both guys had TV exposure, but TV ratings were so down in late 1992-early 1993 that I'd wager a big part of the crowd was really seeing these guys in an extended match for the first time. But they got incredibly involved. Benoit vs Scorpio would not have gotten the same reaction in the WWF. I don't know that it's a regional thing, as I think the match would have gotten over big on a Northeast indy. I think it's specifically how the WWF conditions their fans. I don't know that WCW really conditioned its fans to appreciate or not appreciate much of anything (The Watts era was probably the only time in WCW history a lot of granular thought was put into the in-ring style), so they just popped for what they were given. The WWF was more calculated, so a match thrown out just because it's good just isn't going to do much most of the time.

 

Neither approach is "wrong", it's just interesting to discuss the differences.

[JerryvonKramer]

Loss - the thing I was trying to get at with my first post up there was: how many of those 92-3 WCW fans were still around by 96-7? Didn't the 94-5 period kill off a lot of the old Crockett hardcores by alienating them so heavily with Hogan and friends?

 

And, by the same token, were the WWF fans not sort of "re-trained" by the Bret years during the same time frame? I don't know that the old split still applies by the Monday Night Wars. Does it?

 

Another question to ask would be how fast can fans be "re-trained". Think of the Backlund era where fans at MSG would be sitting through technical 60 minute draws. What happened to THOSE fans by 1985?

[s1rweeze]

When I first got on the Internet the WCW/WWF divide was so strong. There was a lot of death riding of the WWF after Pillman's death and then Montreal especially by people who remembered what Vince had done to the territories. This death riding made WWF fans hugely defensive. When WCW dropped the ball with Sting/Hogan and the WWF started getting attention for using Mike Tyson the worm turned and I'll never forget that Tuesday when WWF won the ratings.

There was absolutely a "my team vs. your team" vibe back then. I'll never forget the WWF AOL message board flipping out over Waltman coming back while the WCW commenters we're immediately defensive and said things like, "You guys are marking out over the 1-2-3 Kid? Really?" It felt like Packers fans getting ornery over the Vikings signing a longtime Packer.

[Loss]

Loss - the thing I was trying to get at with my first post up there was: how many of those 92-3 WCW fans were still around by 96-7? Didn't the 94-5 period kill off a lot of the old Crockett hardcores by alienating them so heavily with Hogan and friends?

 

And, by the same token, were the WWF fans not sort of "re-trained" by the Bret years during the same time frame? I don't know that the old split still applies by the Monday Night Wars. Does it?

 

Another question to ask would be how fast can fans be "re-trained". Think of the Backlund era where fans at MSG would be sitting through technical 60 minute draws. What happened to THOSE fans by 1985?

The "Crockett hardcores" took years and years to completely kill off. I don't know that they stayed around for the Dungeon of Doom crap, but there are plenty of Flair vs Hogan matches with Flair getting cheered and Hogan getting booed. I do think more old fans came back when wrestling was cool. WCW wouldn't have run so many pay-per-views and Nitros to packed houses in Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, Norfolk, Winston-Salem and Asheville otherwise. WCW not only created lots of new fans, but also brought back quite a few lapsed ones. I can't tell you how many times I've heard stories of people who stopped watching at some point in the late 80s or early 90s that came back around 1997-1998.

 

I think the split still applied. This thread wasn't so much about how WWF fans don't appreciate good wrestling, although I've always thought the changes made when Bret and Shawn worked on top in the WWF were overstated. The point was more that the WWF didn't give non-stars much of a reaction, while WCW fans were willing to give them a chance. Bret and Shawn got a reaction because Bret and Shawn were headliners. There aren't very many show-stealing midcard matches really in the history of the promotion (I consider the IC title a "headline" title probably until Russo-era WWF), so I'm sure it's a philosophical thing Vince has about protecting main events.

 

I also remember Dave referencing once that WCW had demographics information that a large part of their fanbase was hardcore fans of sports, while the WWF fanbase fell more on the pop culture side. I'm sure that played a part in crowd reaction.

 

The other point I'll make is that WCW fans loved to hold the four fingers up in periods when the Horsemen were either not being pushed hard or weren't around at all, which I think says something about longtime fans and memories too.

[Matt D]

I'd agree with that. I look at Benoit vs Scorpio in Asheville, NC for SuperBrawl III. That's another example. Both guys had TV exposure, but TV ratings were so down in late 1992-early 1993 that I'd wager a big part of the crowd was really seeing these guys in an extended match for the first time. But they got incredibly involved. Benoit vs Scorpio would not have gotten the same reaction in the WWF. I don't know that it's a regional thing, as I think the match would have gotten over big on a Northeast indy. I think it's specifically how the WWF conditions their fans. I don't know that WCW really conditioned its fans to appreciate or not appreciate much of anything (The Watts era was probably the only time in WCW history a lot of granular thought was put into the in-ring style), so they just popped for what they were given. The WWF was more calculated, so a match thrown out just because it's good just isn't going to do much most of the time.

 

Neither approach is "wrong", it's just interesting to discuss the differences.

It's tricky with Scorpio since he was both so dynamic and so over with the studio crowds. I don't know when he started to be over but in 93 he was basically the most over guy on the entire roster if you just watched TV.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's possible to push this too far though. For example, Ice Train was really really over in that same period. The Road Warriors were massively over in the height of the Crockett era. Sid consistently gets massive pops from the minute of his debut in NWA. Good wrestling was one thing they popped for, but they also reacted to big roided up dudes who couldn't work.

 

That said, Loss has hit on something with the "show-stealing midcard matches" distinction. Orient Express vs. Rockers? Can't really think of many others. That's the WWF equivalent of a hot US Tag title match.

[Loss]

I never said the WWF fans didn't appreciate good wrestling. I said they didn't appreciate guys who weren't pushed as stars having good matches. I mentioned that in my last post and you equated it again with muscleheads, which wasn't what I was saying at all.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah I get that Loss, what I'm saying is that you can take the idea that WCW fans appreciated good wrestling too far too given that they popped for the likes of Sid. It's not like they were a bunch of purists or anything.

[Loss]

Of course not.

[stomperspc]

I never said the WWF fans didn't appreciate good wrestling. I said they didn't appreciate guys who weren't pushed as stars having good matches. I mentioned that in my last post and you equated it again with muscleheads, which wasn't what I was saying at all.

I think that the main factor causing the difference in fan reaction/acceptance was that if WWF wanted someone to get over, the fans knew it. If they were pushing a wrestler, it was obvious. You would have the debut vignettes, featured interview segments, featured matches and programs with already over wrestlers. I would imagine that at least subconsciously, most WWF fans picked up on that. They knew who the promotion wanted to promote and they tended to react to that promotion and not necessarily the talent of each individual wrestler.

 

On the flip side, it was often difficult to tell who (if anyone) WCW really wanted to get over. That’s a generalization of course, but WCW had a history of not really pushing guys in an effective manner. What you were left with is a huge pool of wrestlers extending from guys Ric Flair and Steve Austin to Eddie Guerrero and Alex Wright who were either not being pushed or being pushed half-heartedly. I think it sort of conditioned WCW fans to react to whatever they liked and not to what was being pushed because nobody save for a few top guys were ever consistently pushed all that strongly.

 

In addition, all the turnover in WCW management over the years and just the general chaotic nature of WCW served to introduce WCW fans to a wider variety of wrestling and booking styles. By the time the NWO started, a WCW fan has seen the remains of the JCP/Mid-Atlantic feel, bloody brawls, main storylines built around stables, junior style influence (from guys like Pillman, Liger, Benoit, and Eddie), Hogan cartoonish wrestling, ECW-influenced brawls (Foley, Nasty Boys, Public Enemy), NJPW wrestlers, the beginnings of WCW-ized Lucha, and more. A WWF fan during that same period saw basically none of that, save for the Hogan stuff. WCW fans were exposed to a wider variety of wrestling styles so I think by 1996 and 1997, they were more open to reacting to different styles of wrestling than WWF fans.

[Loss]

I generally think you're right. WCW in some ways benefitted from their lack of focus. The WWF is and always has been incredibly micromanaged.

 

I will say there is a WWF anomaly in 1997 when Mascarita Sagrada got over huge on a RAW from Syracuse. Of course, the company didn't follow up on that at all, most likely because it didn't fit their definition of what wrestling is. I'm not sure WCW would have either, but I do think of the two promotions, they are more likely to push someone like Sagrada.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

Right when I started to post here, I noticed the Miz, sized him up, and was sure that it's the Miz. He's very tall though, at least four inches taller than me. I thought the Miz was short. I approached him and asked if he's. . ."Yes and yes." Funny.

 

Anyway, StompersPC hits on a demographic issue that makes sense of the difference between WCW and WWE fans. Also, one critical difference is that WCW fans were much more likely to watch shoot sports, whereas WWE fans tended not to watch shoot sports as much.

[DMJ]

I definitely agree that there was a rivalry between WCW and WWE fans, especially when one promotion was routinely putting on the better show.

 

For example, in 96', after Hogan's turn, WCW definitely had a lot of momentum (and, to be sure, much of this started as early as that first Nitro) and were the hot brand. I had tickets to that year's SummerSlam and while I remember a pretty good crowd, among my fellow pubescent wrestling-addicted friends, this was pretty uncool. I remember talking up the finish of the Boiler Room Brawl match and several of my friends rolling their eyes at how the biggest storyline in WWE was a manager turning heel on a "tired gimmick wrestler." Compare that to the "Is this real or fake?" buzz of the early nWo and its not hard to pick out which one was going to seem "cool" to a bunch of 13 year olds who considered themselves "smart" because they were on RSPW, joined e-feds, and taped ECW in the wee AM hours.

 

In 99', the opposite was true. My "WCW friends" tried desperately to convince the rest of the gang that WWE sucked, but, at that point, the nWo was really stale and the WWE was crushing them in ratings. The rivalry continued until WCW closed and my "WCW friends" moved onto what was left of ECW and Japan/Mexico tapes.

 

 

Another thought - I've always viewed one of the key differences between WWF and WCW was that WWF has, dating back decades, always run with a clear, top babyface in the prime spot, while NWA/WCW often put more focus on a heel. This may have also played into the "Hogan hate" of 95' and pre-nWo 96' as a sizeable portion of the audience had grown to feel comfortable cheering the heel (which explains the popularity of guys like Sid, but also of certain guys like Terry Funk who didn't play by the rules often).

 

Could it be that WCW fans catered to a more cynical, "well-read" crowd (and that these cynical fans were willing to give a glance at unknown wrestlers because of their indy reps) than WWE fans, who were "less educated" but dependable for cheering the guys they intended to promote?

[flyonthewall2983]

During the Monday Night Wars, I was a WCW fan and my brother was the WWF fan although we didn't mind watching both. It would get a little heated sometimes as to which show we would tape that night (for some reason I had a thing about wanting to tape the live Nitro feed over the taped one), but I think it's safe to say we both enjoyed each product to the same degree.

 

I preferred WCW because I had missed out on the original WWF boom and enjoyed seeing the big names from week to week I'd only really known before via videotape. My demerits against WWF at the time was that it seemed to focused on "youth" which even as a pre-teen I felt was kind of lame. But then guys like Vader and Foley came in, and my interest rose a little. It rose quite a bit during the Bret Hart "American heel/Canadian face" period, which I thought was equal to the NWO angle in terms of being interesting television.

[Dustys Pencil]

I grew up in California...My friends that liked WWF during the Hogan era liked it because of the gloss and the big muscle guys...our friends that were WAY more into wrestling liked the NWA and World Class...the fast pace the blood

 

and its very true...WWF has always been more about characters than wrestling. I don't even think Vince himself would be offended by that statement.

[Sidebottom]

I love looking at Monday Night War WCW crowds. It's like by looking at some of them, they have no idea what wrestling is. They look like toothless, hillbilly scum waving their beer in the air... but then you think to buy a front row seat they must love the product. Somethign tells me this breed of cat isn't watching PWG these days.

[Dustys Pencil]

I love looking at Monday Night War WCW crowds. It's like by looking at some of them, they have no idea what wrestling is. They look like toothless, hillbilly scum waving their beer in the air... but then you think to buy a front row seat they must love the product. Somethign tells me this breed of cat isn't watching PWG these days.

 

You MUST be a WWF mark to say something this obviously silly lol

[flyonthewall2983]

That could have been true in the 80's, but they were fully national by the Nitro days as I recall.

[Sidebottom]

No way man, go back and watch the tapes from 1997, the crowds were host to some utter freaks. Granted you can't paint everyone with the same brush, but still...

[The Chief]

No way man, go back and watch the tapes from 1997, the crowds were host to some utter freaks. Granted you can't paint everyone with the same brush, but still...

I agree. I'm not gonna say those people weren't at WWE shows, but their production crew would stay away from them. WCW would find the most backwoods hillbillies and ZOOM IN for what seemed like an eternity. This happened every Nitro when they were hot.

[Loss]

I need screenshot examples, because WCW tended to just zoom in on screaming frat boys wearing NWO t-shirts and holding up four fingers from everything I've seen.

[Loss]

If you want to criticize WCW fans, point out the confusion and absurdity of wearing an NWO t-shirt and booing Hogan and the Outsiders. Make up your damn minds!

[cowboy hats]

another plea for screenshots of these hillbilly monsters, please