WON HOF 2013 discussion

[Dylan Waco]

Yohe on Pedro two years ago at Classics:

 

I voted for Pedro Morales. I watched him in Los Angeles for 3 years & he was a very good worker. A good person too. He drew a ton in MSG as champion & a lot of the guys he was fed weren't what you would consider major stars or workers. Too me is he didn't have major contenders to play off of most of the time. Example:

 

2-8-71-Ivan Koloff--well Koloff was major but he drew 21,812 & $86,885

 

3-15-71--Blackjack Mulligan 21,000 $88,865-I never thought of Mulligan as a good performer or a major draw.

 

5-24-71--Tarzan Tyler

 

6-21-71--Luke Graham--Terrible worker & had been in the area many times

 

7-24-71--& Monsson vs Graham & Tyler--21,912--A $103,458 gate for a tag match.

 

8-30-71-Stan Stasiak--16,720 $70,684 I always thought Stan sucked. Not major for sure.

 

10-25-71-Stan Stasiak--22,070 $104,456 WOW

 

11-15-71--Fred Blassie 22,000 Well Fred was major..but old..well guess Fred was born old.

 

12-6-71--Fred Blassie

 

1-31-72--Prof Tanaka 22,076--Tanaka was a good main eventer

 

2-21-72--Prof Tanaka 22,090

 

3-13-72--Baron Scicluna--Scicluna I never saw but I think he was a OK or good worker but not a star outside of the WWF

 

4-17-72--Curtis Iaukea--15,549--Iaukea could talk & was a brawler type--I've seen him look really bad in matches. As a worker I don't see him.

 

5-22-72--Pampero Firpo--19,367--Firpo wasn't a major star. Was this the largest crowd of his career.

 

7-1-72--George Steele-19,512-Maybe Steele was over in NYC but...

 

7-29-72-The Spoiler--Without his mask, Don Jardine was a mid-card worker in LA. I know he has his fans.

 

9-2-72--Ernie Ladd-21,819 $101,000 Can't complain about Ernie.

 

9-30-72--Bruno Sammartino-22,508 $140,923--Pedro goes against the most popular wrestler in NY history & has to wrestle a clean match in a town that never sees face vs face matches. It lasts 1:15:00. Try that. Good luck.

 

10-16-72 & Sammartino vs Tanaka & mr Fuji Sorry but Fuji is terrible.

 

11-27-72-Ray Stevens-18,183 Well OK.

 

12-18-72-Ray Stevens 22,906

 

1-15-73--Moondog Mayne 22,000 I saw his interview & brawling but have no idea how good he was. Don't know if he was much on selling for Pedro. Guess I can't complain.

 

4-30-73--Don Leo Jonathan--22,000

 

6-4-73--Don Leo Jonathan--22,146

 

6-30-73--George Steele--21,987 Only in NY.

 

8-27-73--Stan Stasiak--18,666--Again.

 

10-15-73--Stan Stasiak-22,102-the 4th time

 

11-12-73--Larry Hennig-16,148--Hennig was a stiff. From want I saw, hard to get a great match out of him. But I didn't live in Minneapolis.

 

Loses title to none other than Stan Stasiak. Will Stan even make the WON ballot?

 

So point is: Pedro drew tons against guys who couldn't work or were freak types. To a serious fan, it doesn't make him look good, outside of the Stevens, Ladd, Blassie, & Jonathan matches.

 

When Billy Graham became heel champion he got Bruno, Rhodes (twice), Mil Mascaras (twice), Peter Maivia, and Backlund in a town hunger for a cool heel champion. All great draws & most HOF'ers. It makes a difference who your in with.

[Dylan Waco]

Bruno was made champion because he was already a big draw. Bruno drew as a touring attraction in other territories to the point the NWA wanted him as their touring champion. The other two were thrown into a role Vince Sr. had in mind and succeeded because of the machine behind them.

Much of your Backlund/Morales criticism could be applied to John Cena. Is Cena a Hall of Famer? If so why?

[Bix]

Bruno was made champion because he was already a big draw. Bruno drew as a touring attraction in other territories to the point the NWA wanted him as their touring champion. The other two were thrown into a role Vince Sr. had in mind and succeeded because of the machine behind them.

Much of your Backlund criticism could be applied to John Cena. Is Cena a Hall of Famer? If so why?

 

Cena was able to get over on his own and there are tangible ways we have now (like merch sales) to show that John Cena specifically is over that we didn't have then. Plus he was not at all a company golden boy until he rapped for Stephanie, his boosters when he was first called up were the developmental staff (who had little to no say back then) and Paul Heyman (who everyone else was skeptical of when he'd push a new prospect). He also go over initially while he was still a heel and was turned by the fans.

 

If you're arguing that Cena's current persona is the result of taking the guy they happened to have as champion and molding him to fit into their current marketing plans for kids, that's different.

[Dylan Waco]

Where is the evidence that Backlund didn't get over on his own?

 

It sounds to me like the main difference is that Cena's developmental stage was on t.v. which gives him a bit more "cover" if someone is trying to push the self made star line, but I find it very hard to believe that the general criticism of "guy with a desired look/style was plugged into a pre-existing role and pushed hard, while essentially maintaining a successful business model" is something that doesn't apply to both guys. I think both guys should clearly be in, but to me results are generally speaking more important than anything else.

 

I'm hardly the biggest Backlund guy on the planet, but it seems odd to me to argue against Backlund (or really Morales I guess) on the grounds you are arguing and not Cena.

[Bix]

Within less than two years, Backlund went from being the WWF Champion and MSG headliner to Tony Garea Mark II to bombing as a part timer in PWUSA to carrying around a cardboard belt in ICW. Then he disappeared and nobody really cared.

 

Pedro at least had a stong career after dropping the title, but nothing that boosts his resume as a HOFer, and he has the albatross of drawing much less in markets without huge Puerto Rican populations. At least he continued to be a star pro wrestler.

[Dylan Waco]

So to be clear your position is that Bruno>Pedro>Backlund with the last two not being Hall of Famer's in your eyes?

[puropotsy]

That is an awesome write-up from Yohe on Pedro.

 

I should definitely re-visit some Carlos Colon matches, Dylan has watched a ton of PR lately and I will take his word on Colon as a worker as it is much more likely that I would like someone that Dylan doesn't than it is that he would like someone that I don't.

 

For me, the argument on Tanahashi right now comes down to whether you think he is a good worker, which I do. He is polarizing in that regards but I honestly do think he has more supporters than detractors regarding his work. I think his success and influence are both substantial. And regarding whether it is too early, it is really a comparison with Cena, who has been on top since 2005 while Tanahashi has been on top since 2006. Cena started being taken more seriously around 2006 when he was working with Edge and Tanahashi started being taken more seriously in 2007 when he started working with Nagata.

[Matt D]

Neither here nor there but I wish someone else would watch the Buddy vs Stasiak matches since I liked Stan's stchick there and wonder if he has a bum rap. He is not a super worker but he wasn't trying to be either.

[Bix]

So to be clear your position is that Bruno>Pedro>Backlund with the last two not being Hall of Famer's in your eyes?

Yeah, I guess so.

[Dylan Waco]

For me, the argument on Tanahashi right now comes down to whether you think he is a good worker, which I do. He is polarizing in that regards but I honestly do think he has more supporters than detractors regarding his work. I think his success and influence are both substantial. And regarding whether it is too early, it is really a comparison with Cena, who has been on top since 2005 while Tanahashi has been on top since 2006. Cena started being taken more seriously around 2006 when he was working with Edge and Tanahashi started being taken more seriously in 2007 when he started working with Nagata.

Is Tanahashi really influential? How so?

 

I think Tanahashi to Cena is a bad comparison in an HoF discussion because even if they have been on top of their respective promotions for roughly the same time there is a big difference between those promotions. Even if I thought Tanahashi was an outstanding worker I don't think I'd be advocating for him now because how many years of good business has NJPW had under those seven? I can give Tanahasi a big part of the credit for the strong turnaround in the last couple of years, but I don't think that is enough to get into the HoF as a draw.

[Dylan Waco]

So to be clear your position is that Bruno>Pedro>Backlund with the last two not being Hall of Famer's in your eyes?

Yeah, I guess so.

 

Okay, I'm interested then, where does Graham fall?

[mookeighana]

I few years ago, I threw together a whole bunch of AWA records from the Clawmaster

 

Here are the challengers to the AWA Champion from that source. (Note, I filtered explictly on singles matches involving "AWA Champion"; if the championship was not explicitly noted, I would have missed the match.)

 

I can't figure out how to make the thing big enough to read. Any advice?

 

Noting your caveat on sorting, I note it doesn't seem to have a title challenge for Mad Dog to Bockwinkel in 1983. I'd need to see the list bigger to be sure I'm reading it right, though.

 

EDIT: Looking/squinting at it again, I think I was wrong and it says 11 title matches in 1983, which would be more accurate.

 

Don't lose your eyesight!

https://sites.google.com/site/chrisharringt...ics/awa_results

 

The full-sized chart is linked there.

[mookeighana]

Within less than two years, Backlund went from being the WWF Champion and MSG headliner to Tony Garea Mark II to bombing as a part timer in PWUSA to carrying around a cardboard belt in ICW. Then he disappeared and nobody really cared.

 

Pedro at least had a stong career after dropping the title, but nothing that boosts his resume as a HOFer, and he has the albatross of drawing much less in markets without huge Puerto Rican populations. At least he continued to be a star pro wrestler.

Jojo Andrews: I wrestled with Tony Garea. I knew Tony Garea. Tony Garea was a friend of mine. Brotha, you're no Tony Garea. (Prolonged shouts and applause.)

[kjh]

Yeah, I got a ballot this year.

 

Re: Backlund vs. Pedro, Backlund's title run was twice the length of Pedro's, so I'm not sure that Pedro > Backlund. I think Backlund was hurt by a changing business (though he also hurt himself by changing his look at that time) whereas Pedro didn't have to deal with that. There was less places for him to go to work and the audience changed.

 

I could be persuaded to vote for Pedro, but I don't think the early 70s MSG run is enough on its own to convince me. If he had other equally hot runs in a few other territories then I would be convinced.

[Bix]

As far as Pedro > Backlund, I mean more in the sense that he was a star wrestler who did well before and after his WWWF Championship run. Obviously Backlund has the better case as a (W)WWF draw because of longevity and his success outside of MSG.

 

Backlund was never going to be a great fit in the expansion/national promotion era for a number of reasons, but he tried working in the best possible new promotion(s) for him in the form of the PWUSA tapings and AWA and didn't really make a dent.

[Bix]

So to be clear your position is that Bruno>Pedro>Backlund with the last two not being Hall of Famer's in your eyes?

Yeah, I guess so.

 

Okay, I'm interested then, where does Graham fall?

 

Overrated in the sense I think people underrate just how much the dynamic switching to all of the star WWWF babyfaces plus Dusty and Mascaras chasing helped. The fans were all trained to expect a title change every time he defended the title. Really strong draw in the previous 4 years and he was definitely the right heel for that spot, but he quickly lost his mind and spiraled into drug addiction. I don't necessarily see him as a HOF caliber draw, either, but for different reasons from Morales and Backlund.

[WingedEagle]

Regarding Pedro/Backlund, I haven't looked at any numbers recently outside of what's been posted here. Was there any point from when Ivan won the belt until Hogan where the company drew substantially above or below a certain trend line? From the limited numbers here, certain big matches that would be expected to pop the house did so, but otherwise there was a decent floor below which things didn't really fall, and not with consistency.

 

Coming at it from a devil's advocate perspective, how much credit are we giving or taking from these guys for keeping business at a certain level, or was there a similar trendline to the modern era where when business moves, you can point to it -- Punk in '11, Mania, Rock, Lesnar, Henry @ MITB?

[Matt D]

Stupid question:

 

I know NYC is sort of bulletproof in some ways, but did the 73-75 recession affect WWWF business at all?

[evilclown]

Jerry, I appreciate the work on Koloff. But your characterizations aren't always on point. For example, you call him a "main eventer" for Mid Atlantic in 1974. Looking at the results myself, he was more often on the upper midcard or the semi-main event. If this kind of "boost" is how you approached every other year and territory, it limits the utility of what you've posted.

[JerryvonKramer]

He was number 2 heel in MACW in 74, so if Johnny Valentine vs. Wahoo or similar was on the card, he'd be in the semi-main. It's not realistic to expect main eventers always to be in the main event though. I included the Greensboro 12/26/1974 card so you could see this.

 

I wasn't trying to "boost" Ivan, just give an account of what he was doing in any given year. The point was that if his stuff vs. Patera in AWA was semi-main, then in MACW he was clearly a step up on the card. And a lot of the shows had him in the top match.

[Indikator]

I like the post by Bix about Backlund, it gave me the thought that we should name it the "Backlund Factor" if somebody pretty much vanishes from public sight after losing a certain spot. I always wonder how many of the post 2001 guys might fall under that label. The exact opposite should be named the "Onita Factor".

[Indikator]

Last year I noticed an interesting thing regarding Bruno. This should be the work of Vance Nevada and quite possibly some earlier instances from people like maybe Georgiann Makropoulos

 

1971

01/02 McKeesport, PA drew George Steele

01/05 Johnstown, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, beat Jos Leduc & Mikel Scicluna

01/09 Boston, MA beat Bepo Mongol

01/15 Pittsburgh, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, beat George Steele & Mikel Scicluna by DQ

01/16 Philadelphia, PA double DQ vs. Bulldog Brower

01/18 New York, NY lost to Ivan Koloff

*Lost the WWWF World title

01/22 Butler, PA w/. Victor Rivera, beat Jos Leduc & Mikel Scicluna

01/29 McKeesport, PA beat Jos Leduc by DQ

01/30 Allison Park, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, drew Jos Leduc & George Steele

02/04 Monongahela, PA beat Mikel Scicluna

02/05 Johnstown, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, beat Jos Leduc & George Steele

02/06 Baldwin, PA beat George Steele by count out

02/06 Boston, MA w/. Jay Strongbow, beat The Mongols

02/08 New York, NY beat Geeto Mongol

02/12 Pittsburgh, PA beat Ivan Koloff by DQ

02/19 Blairsville, PA beat Mikel Scicluna

02/26 McKeesport, PA beat Mikel Scicluna by count out

03/05 Pittsburgh, PA beat Ivan Koloff Texas Death match

03/06 New Castle, PA w/. Victor Rivera, beat The Mongols

03/12 Altoona, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, beat Jos Leduc & George Steele

03/13 Midland, PA lost to George Steele by count out

03/18 Weirton, WV beat Mikel Scicluna by DQ

03/20 McKeesport, PA w/. Domenic Denucci & Victor Rivera, beat Mikel Scicluna & The

Mongols

03/27 Carnegie, PA lost to George Steele by count out

04/02 Lisbon, OH beat George Steele by DQ

04/03 Washington, PA lost to George Steele by count out

04/10 McKeesport, PA drew Bepo Mongol (aka Nicolai Volkoff)

04/15 Follansbee, WV w/. Victor Rivera & John L. Sullivan, lost to Mikel Scicluna & The

Mongols

04/16 Pittsburgh, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, lost to George Steele & Mikel Scicluna

04/23 Leechburg, PA beat George Steele by count out

04/24 Hubbard, OH w/. Victor Rivera, lost to The Mongols

04/30 Ford City, PA beat George Steele by DQ

05/01 Beaver Falls, PA beat Mikel Scicluna by DQ

05/07 Pittsburgh, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, vs. George Steele & Mikel Scicluna

05/15 Allison Park, PA beat Mikel Scicluna by DQ

05/20 Canonsburg, PA beat Mikel Scicluna by count out

05/22 Robinson Township, PA beat Mikel Scicluna by count out

05/27 Greensburg, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, beat George Steele & Mikel Scicluna

05/29 E Palestine, OH beat George Steele

06/05 Johnstown, PA beat George Steele by DQ

06/11 Steubenville, OH beat Mikel Scicluna by count out

06/12 Altoona, PA w/. Victor Rivera, beat The Mongols

06/17 Wellsville, OH w/. Domenic Denucci, beat George Steele & Mikel Scicluna

06/18 Pittsburgh, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, beat The Mongols

*Won the WWWF International tag team titles

06/25 Latrobe, PA beat Mikel Scicluna

07/16 Pittsburgh, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, lost to The Mongols by DQ

07/24 New York, NY beat Blackjack Mulligan

07/30 Greensburg, PA beat Mikel Scicluna

07/31 Munhall, PA beat Mikel Scicluna

08/13 Pittsburgh, PA beat Geeto Mongol Chain match

08/21 Pittsburgh, PA beat Geeto Mongol Chain match

08/28 Greensburg, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, double DQ vs. Bepo Mongol & B.J. Mulligan

09/04 Beaver Falls, PA w/. Johnny DeFazio, lost to Bepo Mongol & Blackjack Mulligan

09/17 Pittsburgh, PA beat Blackjack Mulligan

09/18 Altoona, PA beat Bulldog Brower

10/05 Johnstown, PA beat Blackjack Mulligan

10/15 Pittsburgh, PA beat Bepo Mongol

10/22 Altoona, PA w/. Batman, beat Bulldog Brower & Mikel Scicluna

10/23 Cannonsburg, PA beat George Steele by count out

10/29 East Liverpool, OH w/. Batman, beat Bulldog Brower & Mikel Scicluna

11/05 Johnstown, PA w/. Batman, beat Bulldog Brower & Mikel Scicluna

11/06 Butler, PA w/. Batman, beat Bulldog Brower & George Steele

11/12 Pittsburgh, PA beat Bulldog Brower

12/03 Pittsburgh, PA w/. Bepo Mongol, lost to Tarzan Tyler & Luke Graham by count out

12/17 Darlington, PA w/. Domenic Denucci, beat Jim Grabmire & Mikel Scicluna

12/18 Midland, PA w/. Johnny DeFazio, beat Luke Graham & Tarzan Tyler by count out

 

Doesn't exactly scream Hall Of Fame, does it?

[kjh]

3. Sasaki is probably the guy I care least about getting in one way or the other. I don't think he is a bad pick, but I don't think he's a particularly strong pick either. He's a case of a guy where I think you can sort of spin the stats to make him look much better than he is, but even if you don't spin the stats he was still a star of note and I tend to think his freelance period provided some interesting moments and money drawing opportunities. I'm sure I will talk about him more when I do my inevitable full ballot run down everyone will scroll past

Sasaki's a guy who's had some big moments in his career (Dome matches with Kawada and Kobashi), but to a certain extent he feels like a Japanese equivalent of Sting. Both were guys that the booker was high on and got multiple opportunities to be the top star of their national promotion, but the pushes never really stuck. Sting has the Crow run, which really was just one big drawing match. Given how far the Japanese business has declined, from a drawing perspective Sasaki headlining for AJPW and Pro Wrestling NOAH since 2007 isn't much better than being TNA's legend during the same time period. Really, given that he's one of the few legends left working from the '90s glory days, Sasaki should be a bigger deal today than he actually is.

[KrisZ]

Me personally I can't vote for guys who are still active in the primes of their careers hence why I didn't vote for Cena last year. Tanahashi is in this category and still has a lot of time left if he doesn't get hurt.

 

Regarding Backlund....Bix don't forget that Backlund would tour around some of the territories to defend his title such as GCW, CWF, JCP, St. Louis, Houston, Toronto all in big money towns mostly main eventing or semi-main eventing.

[jdw]

Funny irony.

 

For legal reasons, I'm on the company's distribution list for all terminations, be they employees, contractors, temps, etc. Which means whenever someone gets terminated, I get an e-mail popping up in my inbox.

 

Just got one for:

 

Enrique Torres

 

 

 

John