WON HOF 2013 discussion

[goodhelmet]

Listening to the Observer podcast, I was bummed to hear Dave say that Dickie was a legend in Japan and that if he was on the Japan ballot, he would have been in long ago. in the same discussion, Dr. death was brought up and getting in since he was in the Japanese section. Does anyone have any data to compare Dick's run to Docs? It seems like a shitty thing to do that Dick would be a sure Hall of Famer if he was put in another section but is held off because he was also really successful in America too. If Dick and Doc's Japanese careers were comparable but Dick was much more successful in America as a draw and top name, how do we justify leaving him out but Doc gets in because of where he was placed on the ballot?

[Dylan Waco]

My own thought is that Doc is the better candidate if you are looking solely at Japan, Murdoch is the better candidate if you are looking solely at the States and Murdoch is the better candidate if you add both together, but it's not something I've put a lot of thought or research into.

[goodhelmet]

That is why I would like data on Dick vs. Doc in Japan. Was Doc really more successful than Murdoch in Japan?

[Dylan Waco]

Doc held the major singles title of the promotion he was in and certainly felt more in the mix at the top of cards than Murdoch did. I don't know how many times he main evented for the promotion, or main evented the big shows at Budakon, but I would be shocked if he didn't have a stronger record in that regard than Murdoch. That's not to say Murdoch didn't get his time up top in Japan, but I don't think he was ever as important a player in New Japan (let alone All Japan) as Doc was to All Japan at his peak.

[jdw]

Murdoch's career in Japan, much like Ted DiBiase's, has long been overrated. A "star", someone who was on TV for years at a time when JWA, AJPW and NJPW had better time slots than they would later have. He just wasn't the Big Star that people make him out to be.

 

John

[jdw]

Doc-Dick in Japan is a tough comp for a number of reasons:

 

* different time slots

 

Doc's peak was in All Japan, where they were moved to worse time slots, and the show got cut to 30 minutes eventually. Pretty much all of Dick's time was while JWA, AJPW and NJPW were in choice time slots. A higher % of people watched pro wrestling on TV, so you see Dick on TV all the time.

 

* open shop / closed shop

 

Most of Dick's career was when the NWA and WWWF/WWF were supplying talent to Japan. Even guys who worked Japan a "lot" like the Funks or Dick didn't work every series, or even the majority of series. Hansen didn't for a big chunk of his career of traveling to Japan. Doc's career came during the time when your core gaijin worked and increasing number of series, eventually nearly all of them if not all of them for some. They became as regular as the natives. It meant that someone like Doc could be booked like the regulars, while there also weren't significant non-regulars coming in to eat up slots/spots. There wasn't an NWA champ coming in. The Funks weren't coming in for these 3 series a year. It was pretty much Baba's guys, and a few others like the Fantastics that might come in a time a year.

 

So it makes it extremely hard to comp 1990-94 with 1980-84 or 1970-74. They're just different beasts.

 

* * * * *

 

What you can do is take a look at who were getting the title shots (i.e. the pushes) when Dick was in JWA and AJPW, and who was getting the more significant ones (i.e. the higher ranked title in the promotion such as Int'l vs UN, PWF vs UN, Int'l Tag vs All Asia Tag). Surprised me when working on title histories years ago.

 

John

[pantherwagner]

Alvarez interview with Steve Sims from today is interesting not only for his discussion of Wagner Jr and LA Park as candidates, but also because Sims talks about an interesting and seemingly complicated system for getting Lucha wrestlers and figures to vote for the HoF which apparently involves Sims acting as a courier for their votes??

Yeah, I know of at least another person who acts like a "courier" for votes and it is possible that Konnan is doing the same thing but I don't know for sure. It's a weird system but there is no way you could get most of the old timers to send votes to a kayfabe breaking gringo who is measuring up wrestlers using things like "well this guy was very good at making others look good".

 

A decade ago I had conversations with people like Villano III, Huracan Ramirez, El Halcon or Espanto II, some of them for hours, where kayfabe was not broken a single time. They didn't talk to me like a mark either (well, Huracan did, but he was a bit of a weirdo) and carefully tip toed around the subject when they wanted to explain something without breaking the magic. It took several conversations with some others for them to feel at ease and open up. It really helped a lot that on my website I wasn't publishing things like real names of people who were still masked. It's a different world now with the younger wrestlers though.

[pantherwagner]

This morning during a flight I listened to Jim Cornette's latest MLW Radio show. It's an interesting one for those who want to know more on his process on choosing candidates for the WON HOF. Cornette is a guy who is probably top 1% among the wrestling business voters who are actually historians. He's done research, written books, he reads a lot, cares about it, and on paper is one of those guys that you'd think would do the effort of thinking about the candidates instead of it being a two minute exercise going on memories and gut feeling alone like I am guessing most pro wrestlers do.

 

So all of this being said, even a real historian-in-the-business like him seems to quickly disregard Dave Batista for some reason and anyone that votes for him as being insane, while trumpeting Bob Armstrong as an obvious because the guy is really well known in Alabama. Not saying that I personally agree or disagree with his approach or his comments on both candidates (I didn't vote for either, and I probably wouldn't have even if I had 20 choices) but it's interesting to see his thought process. I imagine that it's pretty hard to have worked closely with the candidates and not have any personal feelings one way or another somewhat clouding the criteria.

[Dylan Waco]

I'll have to listen to that show. In a sense it's hard for me to blame these guys for voting for guys they are close to or worked with with lots of success. It bothers me more when they shit all over guys and/or refuse to vote for them for personal or political reasons.

[goc]

I find it somewhat surprising he would say that about Batista, just because he had a big part in training him and was a guy that was hyping him as a "future WrestleMania main eventer" before he ever got to the main roster. Maybe he didn't like Batista saying that his OVW training sucked since they only taught him how to wrestle as a monster and not have real matches.

[Bix]

I think Jim Cornette is angry at me. I tweeted I was surprised he's such a big Moolah supporter and then...

 

- Court said he's voted for her in the past because she was so powerful/influential.

 

- I pointed out that she likely got that power and influence solely by way of the "unsavory" stuff she did (because I didn't want lead with the words "rape" or "forced prostitution")

 

- Jim said "Jesus Bix, did Moolah piss in your post toasties? Most powerful woman ever in the business, she's a HOF no-brainer"

 

- I said yeah, but she couldn't work, didn't draw, had a profoundly negative influence, etc. If someone who's only praised as a powerful, influential figure also happens to have forced women in her employ to prostitute themselves to promoters, top stars, etc, it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together.

 

- Jim chimes in with the "it's not the Hall of nice people" argument right as I was about to use it as a segue to...

 

- There's a difference between being an HOFer who happens to have committed horrific crimes and being an HOFer solely because you committed horrific crimes.

 

- Then he continued to characterize me as throwing a fit for some reason as I reiterated that it wasn't the only reason I don't vote for her (it's not like she parlayed it all into being Jim Barnett, for example, who I'm sure arranged some awful things during promotional wars but is arguably the greatest non-McMahon American wrestling promoter of all time). Weird.

 

I'll have to listen to that show. In a sense it's hard for me to blame these guys for voting for guys they are close to or worked with with lots of success. It bothers me more when they shit all over guys and/or refuse to vote for them for personal or political reasons.

Yeah, I can't fault the guy for voting for someone like Bob Armstrong. Especially since Bullet is a better HOF candidate than Sting.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't have a twitter account and really don't ever want to have one (though it's increasingly likely that I will go that route), but if it was me I'd point out that he is unquestionably wrong - Linda and Stephanie McMahon have FAR more power than Moolah ever did by any sane metric, so if that's his standard it's time for him to intensely lobby Dave for them to be included on the ballot.

[Bix]

I don't have a twitter account and really don't ever want to have one (though it's increasingly likely that I will go that route), but if it was me I'd point out that he is unquestionably wrong - Linda and Stephanie McMahon have FAR more power than Moolah ever did by any sane metric, so if that's his standard it's time for him to intensely lobby Dave for them to be included on the ballot.

I considered pointing that out but since his reply would almost certainly be "They're not in the wrestling business, they're in the sports entertainment business. Just ask them if you don't believe me!" I didn't think there was any reason to tweet it.

[Dylan Waco]

Fair enough, though the obvious reply of "Moolah wasn't in the wrestling business, she was in the prostitution business" was right there.

[Bix]

Fair enough, though the obvious reply of "Moolah wasn't in the wrestling business, she was in the prostitution business" was right there.

Touché, Dylan. Touché.

[pantherwagner]

I don't have a twitter account and really don't ever want to have one (though it's increasingly likely that I will go that route), but if it was me I'd point out that he is unquestionably wrong - Linda and Stephanie McMahon have FAR more power than Moolah ever did by any sane metric, so if that's his standard it's time for him to intensely lobby Dave for them to be included on the ballot.

I considered pointing that out but since his reply would almost certainly be "They're not in the wrestling business, they're in the sports entertainment business. Just ask them if you don't believe me!" I didn't think there was any reason to tweet it.

 

How about Motoko?

 

Where can I read more about Moolah's "unsavoury" exploits? I had no idea about them, or maybe I did back in the day but I forgot. It sounds horrible.

[Loss]

Lia Maivia too.

[Bix]

I don't have a twitter account and really don't ever want to have one (though it's increasingly likely that I will go that route), but if it was me I'd point out that he is unquestionably wrong - Linda and Stephanie McMahon have FAR more power than Moolah ever did by any sane metric, so if that's his standard it's time for him to intensely lobby Dave for them to be included on the ballot.

I considered pointing that out but since his reply would almost certainly be "They're not in the wrestling business, they're in the sports entertainment business. Just ask them if you don't believe me!" I didn't think there was any reason to tweet it.

 

How about Motoko?

 

Where can I read more about Moolah's "unsavoury" exploits? I had no idea about them, or maybe I did back in the day but I forgot. It sounds horrible.

 

Baba is a good one.

 

Article about Sweet Georgia Brown & her son (this is the one where all of the really bad on the record stuff is): http://www.free-times.com/archives/baby-of...t-georgia-brown

Slam Article about Sandy Parker: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2008/0...pf-5009196.html

 

Note that both were part of her "colored girls" troupe and not the "lady wrestlers." A lot of this type of stuff has been backed up by Vivian & Luna Vachon among others. Pretty sure Dave Meltzer verified it to some degree too.

[Loss]

Dave wrote a horrifying bio for Moolah in the WON when she died.

[Bix]

Dave wrote a horrifying bio for Moolah in the WON when she died.

That's what I thought, just wasn't sure. Been a long time since I read it.

[Loss]

On the subject of Invader I and Brody, let's flip the analogy. Let's say someone told Undertaker that Papi Chulo threatened Vince. Undertaker beats the shit out of him over the misunderstanding, disfigures him and he is never able to wrestle or even walk again. Or maybe he beats him to death, or stabs him to death. Would people be arguing the Undertaker shouldn't be in the HOF for this? Would there be real debate around it?

 

I think there's an American privilege associated with the current HOF, and territories that had newsletter buzz like Memphis are going to get a bigger platform than places like Puerto Rico which drew much bigger crowds. Perhaps the same could be said for other pockets of the world that have had lots of wrestling, but didn't have the benefit of heavy tape trader penetration in the early days of the WON. I don't know if there are Australian candidates that should go in, for example, but I do think there's a lot of lost history out there that's worth uncovering, even if that means ... *gasp* ... watching old footage to gain understanding.

[Loss]

I also think Dave is woefully out of touch with tape trading and comp making culture and how it's changed since he was involved in the scene. Late 70s/early 80s tape trading was a way to get the latest footage from other parts of the country (and world) that fans didn't get locally. It's evolved into something that really is more about capturing history, and so much comp making really is an attempt to frame historical context and consider some of the preordained wisdom we've heard for so many years. As wrestling's preeminent historian, it's something I think he should appreciate way more than he does. The WON is a valuable perspective, but it's not the single voice on pro wrestling. It comes closer than anything else to being that, but it still isn't that. And that's okay.

[Dylan Waco]

On the subject of Invader I and Brody, let's flip the analogy. Let's say someone told Undertaker that Papi Chulo threatened Vince. Undertaker beats the shit out of him over the misunderstanding, disfigures him and he is never able to wrestle or even walk again. Or maybe he beats him to death, or stabs him to death. Would people be arguing the Undertaker shouldn't be in the HOF for this? Would there be real debate around it?

 

I think there's an American privilege associated with the current HOF, and territories that had newsletter buzz like Memphis are going to get a bigger platform than places like Puerto Rico which drew much bigger crowds. Perhaps the same could be said for other pockets of the world that have had lots of wrestling, but didn't have the benefit of heavy tape trader penetration in the early days of the WON. I don't know if there are Australian candidates that should go in, for example, but I do think there's a lot of lost history out there that's worth uncovering, even if that means ... *gasp* ... watching old footage to gain understanding.

This is a great post.

 

As someone who is going through all the Puerto Rico footage, with the benefit of a good guide in Boricua, it seems obvious to me that Invader is at worst a pretty good HoF candidate. I get why Dave says he could never put him on the ballot for essentially political reasons (though as noted before that strikes me as a tacit admission that he's easily a good enough candidate to put on the ballot), but this is a ballot with a guy who is very likely responsible for the death of his girlfriend, a death that was allegedly covered up by an HoF promoter. This is an HoF where a guy who killed a kid as part of a vicious training culture is in, and got in in a year when a similar scandal involving him (absent death this time) broke again. The sad reality is that Invader can't get on the ballot because even though any honest assessment of the situation would note that it is at least possible that the murder he committed was self defense, he killed a "star" and worse yet he did it on Puerto Rican soil and "you know how those people are" (that is an almost verbatim quote from an HoF voter talking about the details surrounding the trial). If he had killed a woman or a trainee, he'd have been on the ballot years ago.

 

This was touched on earlier in the thread, but watching the PR, I think Loss second point is definitely true. There are certain niche's that were promoted, talked up, represented very well (maybe too well in some cases as has been discussed in this thread as well) in the HoF, but then you look at Mexico and there is no trio unit in. The Duseks were in via fiat which is fine, but the Birds being the first trio voted in seems really nuts when you think about it. Fuck a Mexican trio has never even been tested on the ballot.

 

Sticking with PR you have a guy like Hugo who was a manager of note for years, produced the tv and was an announcer and Dave doesn't even think he's worth mentioning as a theoretical candidate in the HoF issue this year. You've got Jovica, who I wouldn't necessarily argue for, but he had some massively impressive numbers for a promoter. You've got Chicky Starr who was basically Jimmy Hart, if Jimmy Hart had to also wrestle (often in good or even great matches), while getting over new talent and angles, except in Chicky's case half or more of his charges didn't even speak the common language in the area (worth noting that Starr was in the main event v. Invader of the second highest drawing show on Earth in 1987 behind only Mania III). You've got TNT which was an enduring believable gimmick, a guy who got over elsewhere (this is something I don't care a ton about, but it is often touted when guys talk about Lucha or even Japanese candidates), was a good worker and was involved in several big money drawing angles and programs. Hell, I feel like The Sheepherders have a career that is much more interesting than I previously would have thought after watching this stuff, though I'm not holding them up as a team I would support. If there were voters from PR I wouldn't be surprised to see guys like Ayala, Profe or even Ron Starr at least get Owen Hart/Curt Hennig level support. The point isn't that these guys are all HoFer's, or even that they should get the consolation prize of a trip to the ballot for their careers, it's more that when I read Dave basically say "no one from PR is a decent candidate other than Colon, the guy who killed Brody and maybe Perez, but only for the time he was teaming with Rocca who is already in), it makes me wonder how much of the context he really gets.

 

I think Dave has done a good job trying to get more credible Lucha voters involved based on what I've heard from Steve and Jose. He has definitely done a good job trying to get more credible voters for Europe and Australia, though I do wonder if there are guys from those regions that realize they can push for other candidates. Still there are places that seem really under explored, including much of Mexican wrestling history, South America, Australia, Puerto Rico, South Africa, Europe, et.

[Bix]

You forgot east Asia. We basically know nothing about Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc other than that Barnett and Rickard both promoted there sometimes, but there's clearly more to it than that

[pantherwagner]

Dave wrote a horrifying bio for Moolah in the WON when she died.

That's what I thought, just wasn't sure. Been a long time since I read it.

 

Shame, it will take 11 years at this rate for 2007 to be part of the WON archive.