Where the Big Boys Play #49

[JerryvonKramer]

It's been a busy weekend for Loss.

 

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-b...wrestlewar-1990

 

 

Chad and Parv welcome back Charles (aka Loss) to talk about Wrestlewar 90: Wild Thing! In this show:

- [4:02] News about new podcasts on PlacetoBeNation.com: Wrestling with the Past, The Brad and Chad Show and Titans of Wrestling

- [14:08] Wrestling Observer roundup, with talking points including: Tully Blanchard's contract negotiations, The Saga Of The Von Erich Warriors, Roos shoes, evaluating Meltzer's booking ideas for 1990, "keep or throw" for workers whose contracts were expiring, and whether Wade Keller would be someone who could go into the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame.

- [56:36] Wrestling News Network with Gordon Solie

- [01:01:06] Wrestlewar 90 review, including: Ric Flair's firing as a booker affecting his promos, Nick Patrick's aggressive poking, "Zee" vs. "Zed", workers talking directly into the camera, comparison of Jim Ross and Gorilla Monsoon, in-depth analysis of Luger vs. Flair [2:17:44], and a brief touch on the Bret Hart / Flair GOAT contender talking point ("where would Luger-Flair rank in Bret's career?")

- [2:37:53] End of the show awards

[BrickHithouse]

This is probably the best WCW PPV up to this point (or maybe ever?) aside from Bash 89. I'd have to really think about what can top it.

 

To add to the evidence that the RnR-Midnights has mass appeal to a fan just breaking in, or even a non fan - my mom back in the day LOVED this match, especially the Cornette antics, and my wife even watched it twice with me recently.

 

LOVE the idea of focusing on the tag scene and having Flair team up with Arn to take on the various teams while Luger-Pillman gets a strong push as the top singles feud.

 

Excellent show, as always.

[soup23]

I will probably have to go back and think about it somewhat but I don't see an easy answer to a PPV besides Bash 89 that is better than this one so far (some contenders seem like Havoc 89, Chi Town Rumble, Bash 88). It is carried by two matches for sure but those take up a ton of time and everything besides Norman vs. Cactus was at least decently ranked for me. I actually still really believe that Freebirds tag would have been good if 10 minutes and the Zenk FIP spot had been cut out.

[Dustys Pencil]

Oddly enough the Von Erichs and World Class Championship Wrestling was huge in Israel and drew ridiculous tv ratings. They toured there a few times to big crowds as well

 

I have to disagree that only hardcore fans were ever watching. The ratings they were doing even at some of their worst times were usually pretty strong all things considered. They couldn't draw worth a damn at the house shows during their lower periods but booking for the masses was still necessary.

 

Typing this as I listen at work

 

That being said I do agree that Pillman beating Flair would have turned the fans on Flair. I think Steiner winning could have been interesting(you then need to educate your fans to a different style of main event world title match)

 

You can't have a monster of the week(or in this case bum of the week) when your champion is a heel. Flair vs Brad Armstrong is a different dynamic than Hogan vs King Kong Bundy

 

 

I like the Steiner Bros/Muta situation

 

 

As a black man I now feel the need to find a reason to wear a black tux...warning from now on whenever i disagree with Parv I'm going to blame it on the fact that he was a Diddy fan lol

 

I was always a bigger fan of the Fantastics/MX matches but THIS RnR match was definitely excellent I'd go 4.75 stars

 

The Freebirds went from being cool in 87 to ridiculously uncool so fast and without the cool factor their matches bored me to tears

 

Maybe its just the WCW mark in me but I always liked the talking to the camera...the camera is there...you're on tv acknowledge it...its more of stephanie and vince pretending that they are taping a traditional tv show

 

IMO Gorilla didn't necessarily make the bad matches themselves entertaining...HE was entertaining with jesse and bobby so that gave you a reason to sit through the bad match(which there were tons of bad matches in those days)

[soup23]

As a black man I now feel the need to find a reason to wear a black tux...warning from now on whenever i disagree with Parv I'm going to blame it on the fact that he was a Diddy fan lol

 

I was always a bigger fan of the Fantastics/MX matches but THIS RnR match was definitely excellent I'd go 4.75 stars

 

Maybe its just the WCW mark in me but I always liked the talking to the camera...the camera is there...you're on tv acknowledge it...its more of stephanie and vince pretending that they are taping a traditional tv show

It's the White tux that puts it over the top. Doom looked like the most bad ass prom dates in history on this show.

 

Which is your favorite Fantastics/MX match. The only one for me that rivals the RNR/MX match here is the clash 1 one but they have had a ton of great matches.

 

I didn't want to belabor the point on the show since we were going long (go figure) but I agree with you on the talking to especially in regards to hearing Patrick's instructions prior to the main event. That gave that match a big time and important feeling.

[shoe]

Another good one men. I dug the Pillman talking point. If I couldn't get Steamboat in as a surprise opponent I would have pushed Pillman in that role. They could have run similar angles that they did with Steamboat or Ricky Morton. Not only could they have elevated Pillman we could have had some fun t.v with Pillman and Zenk or Pillman and Steiners vs. The Horseman feuds.I would have kept Luger as a heel at all costs. His promos in 89 were right there with Funk and Flair. If you wanted to say he had the best promos and character work in the promotion in 89 I could get behind that. Also the amount of good matches he had in 89 is really strong as well.

 

 

On to why the Wrestlewar main event isn't held in higher esteem is I think it's the finish along with the sudden change from Sting to Luger. I also thought the closeup of the pre match instructions really was an awesome touch and gave the match a real feel to it.

 

It's funny about Roos. I think they really hit their fad in around 84-86. I had a pair and the only thing you could put in the pockets of the shoes were either a house key or change. I guess this is their last hurrah at getting built back up.

[bradhindsight]

Doom looked like waiters from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (pun intended).

 

I finished up watching this (James has all but the opener on his 90 WCW set - so huzzah) and really enjoyed listening to the show. I also came away wondering where this ranked for two hour PPVs all-time? Really damn good event.

 

MX/RNR was pretty much tag wrestling 101 (and managerial studies 101) and an easy **** for me also.

 

I had real high hopes for the Freebirds/Pillman-Zenk match going in and was glad to hear I wasn't the only one underwhelmed. Just never kicked into the gear I thought it was capable of on paper (but the conversation around the Freebirds drop off by 1990 was very good. And Jimmy Garvin SUCKED here).

 

I liked the Steiners/Andersons a bit more **3/4 than everyone. I thought the story of the aging Andersons not being able to overcome the power of the Steiners was half decent. I thought the botch Charles talked about with the leg vine cut-off move was actually to show that the Anderson's regular tag moves were being thwarted by the younger, better team. I had never seen a finish like that with the roll-up on a guy ducking from the other guy coming off the ropes. Post match angle was decent.

 

Main event - ****1/2 here and like Chad said, this is a fast 38 minutes. You guys nailed the analysis - Flair wrestled Luger as his equal and made him look like a million bucks. Especially with the powerful visual pinfalls at the end + the rack then. Great match from Flair and when the ref wakes up and Flair is in the rack you get a sense for a second that the ref bump was a red herring and he may very well win it. Of course Sting is there and Luger drops him to attend to him. I liked the ending even with the booking. I had never seen this one before - looking forward to the Capital Combat match now.

[JerryvonKramer]

I really really like the finish to Flair / Luger, it's one of the most creative and innovative I can recall seeing. The idea of Luger fading and then finding inner strength from Sting's inspirational speech is awesome. And then the counts while the ref is out are just agonising.

 

It might be the *best* BS finish I've ever seen, but I'd need to think about it more.

[soup23]

It really is a fairly clever BS finish that makes Luger look like a loyal friend to Sting. As stupid as Luger looks jumping around like a maniac with a countout victory vs. Yoko, he looks every bit dignified and valiant here.

[BrickHithouse]

It might be the *best* BS finish I've ever seen, but I'd need to think about it more.

Agree. I really hated the finish as a kid but watching it back recently - it's fantastic.

 

Does this match get slept on a bit because of the finish, or because of Luger Online Hate GroupThink for so many years, or because it was the zillionth Flair-Luger matchup, or what?

 

I'd probably rate it higher than you guys, something like 4.875 stars or maybe even 4.9375, however close it can get to 5 without actually being 5. Almost scared to go back and watch it again due to the Valentine-Backlund 60 minute match getting a star hacked off each time I viewed it.

[soup23]

I think the match getting slept on is a combination of the fact that 1. Luger gets some hate 2. In looking at the total landscape of WCW 1990 on the surface it looks like Sting's year so its kind of easy to skim over the Luger vs. Flair series unless you really pay attention and 3. The Ultimate Challenge happened at the same time and tons of people are nostalgic for that. I am a huge fan of the Garvin vs. Flair title win for Garvin and think that is a more obscure since people that do watch this match both now and live rated it well, but it is a forgotten classic in the whole vacuum of the IWC.

[JazeUSA]

whats usually a 20 second d/l for me is going on 3 hours now WTF.. hopefully I can listen to this tomorrow

[soup23]

Weird Jaze, what platform are you going through?

[JazeUSA]

Weird Jaze, what platform are you going through?

Parv hooked me up w/ a sound cloud link & I got it w/ no problem, I've always used itunes in the past thats where I was earlier

[bradhindsight]

I think the match getting slept on is a combination of the fact that 1. Luger gets some hate 2. In looking at the total landscape of WCW 1990 on the surface it looks like Sting's year so its kind of easy to skim over the Luger vs. Flair series unless you really pay attention and 3. The Ultimate Challenge happened at the same time and tons of people are nostalgic for that. I am a huge fan of the Garvin vs. Flair title win for Garvin and think that is a more obscure since people that do watch this match both now and live rated it well, but it is a forgotten classic in the whole vacuum of the IWC.

Yeah I think the "Luger is a choker" label that was pretty prevalent in the late 90s shrowds this match a bit. I mean, people know he never won the title from Flair so maybe this gets a little lost historically.

 

I wanted to comment on his face turn a bit. James has a promo Luger did (possibly from the pre-show?) where he sternly maintains his disdain with the Horseman and how he wants the title - not caring if people cheer him or not (I thought that last piece was pretty good). His PPV promo is nails - he doesn't get all blowjob babyface talking about Sting or anything. So while he was shoehorned into the feud, at least he didn't do a complete BS face over-the-top turn. Then during the match the crowd kind of naturally turns him but STING really turns him with the motivational speech/hulk-up segment. This makes him leaving and getting counted out a bit more logical as now he wants to really help the face Sting - and the crowd eats it up. GREAT face turn imo - esp given the circumstances.

[Lust Hogan]

Dusty's Pencil, I too am a black man and agree that the tux deal was awesome. I think we should be the online version of Doom. I'm just sayin.....

 

Great show and a great PPV. I always loved the Rock and Roll tag and main event. The referee boxing spot is always awesome to watch. I never understood the Luger hate. IMO the reason Luger didn't reach the heights people wanted was due to lousy booking. The crowds WANTED the big win but WCW wouldn't pull the trigger.

 

Anyway, great job!!

[soup23]

Thank you for the feedback Midnight Lee

[JerryvonKramer]

I would pay to see Mightnight Lee and NWA Fan in the Doom tuxes and shades. Midnight would have to go in the white because NWA Fan refuses!

[Dustys Pencil]

As a black man I now feel the need to find a reason to wear a black tux...warning from now on whenever i disagree with Parv I'm going to blame it on the fact that he was a Diddy fan lol

 

I was always a bigger fan of the Fantastics/MX matches but THIS RnR match was definitely excellent I'd go 4.75 stars

 

Maybe its just the WCW mark in me but I always liked the talking to the camera...the camera is there...you're on tv acknowledge it...its more of stephanie and vince pretending that they are taping a traditional tv show

It's the White tux that puts it over the top. Doom looked like the most bad ass prom dates in history on this show.

 

Which is your favorite Fantastics/MX match. The only one for me that rivals the RNR/MX match here is the clash 1 one but they have had a ton of great matches.

 

I didn't want to belabor the point on the show since we were going long (go figure) but I agree with you on the talking to especially in regards to hearing Patrick's instructions prior to the main event. That gave that match a big time and important feeling.

 

 

There's a match from Dallas in I believe 85...I'll get back to you on the date but the over all feud was also slightly better IMO

[King Solomon]

Man I gotta catch up on these, works been kicking my ass

[thebrainfollower]

I'd say yes on the finish being a problem. This was Luger's last realistic shot at being the man in WCW and politics held him back as usual.

[Superstar Sleeze]

So I am watching the Freebirds vs Pillman & Zenk from this and wouldn't you know Jim Ross says Brian Pillman's favorite wrestler was other than Fred Curry and Terry Funk name-drops Bull Curry. My jaw dropped further than when I saw Katherine Webb's Hardee's commercial.

 

Man, this match is going pretty long. I check the match time. 25 FUCKIN MINUTES!!! Who gave the Freebirds 25 minutes! Here I am, thinking I was going to defend the Freebirds because I think their preening and strutting is awesome. But 25 minutes, holy shit. Fuck it, I am going to bed.