Smack2k Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 We all know how the Lesnar - Goldberg match at WM 20 turned out....BUT If the crowd either didnt know about both men leaving or didnt really take it to heart and gave the match their attention and New York style cheering and such, could it have been a really good contest that is remembered better? Instead of all the booing and cheering due to what the crowd knew about then, if they handled it like any other big match with Lesnar and Goldberg, could it have been better...Lesnar and Goldberg are both obviously not happy with the crowd and the match goes to shit quickly I think due to it... Personally, I think it would have been a much better match along the lines of Steiner - Goldberg at Fall Brawl 2000 and remembered in a much better light if it was handled like any other match. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I always think that if they knew both guys were gone they should have sent out the returning Egde at the end to take them both out. I think he came back a week or two later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I always think that if they knew both guys were gone they should have sent out the returning Egde at the end to take them both out. I think he came back a week or two later. Turning a Wrestlemania blow-off match into an angle would have been a rotten move in my view. To the original posters point, I've always agreed with the logic. Both Goldberg / Lesnar couldn't give two shits about the smart fans and the crowd got the best of them. It's a shame, because a Fall Brawl 2000 style match is what most were anticipating, and the two certainly could have delivered under different circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 WWE didn't want the match to do well. I have always read that Shane McMahon was the one who started the "You Sold Out" chants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Yeah it was encouraged and they wanted the Austin double Stunner finish to send them both packing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Which again is why I think Edge would have been a better choice. It's not like they really used Austin at all much after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Which again is why I think Edge would have been a better choice. It's not like they really used Austin at all much after that. Considering how Edge was poorly received as a babyface after returning, I don't think that is a good idea, even in retrospect. Plus I don't think people would support the notion that this guy who up to that point was an IC-level performer and only a strong performer when in tags would come out and manhandle both BROCK LESNAR and BILL GOLDBERG. Even at the height of the Rated R Superstar heel run, he was never a dominant personality. He was the Ultimate Opportunist who snuck his way into favorable situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I think the MSG crowd would have gone absolutely nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigelow34 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I was there...it was the most surreal match I have ever seen live. Not sure I would change a thing though, I don't think the match would have been so good that its legacy could have outpaced the spectacle we got. If word hadn't spread, I am sure the match would have gone a bit differently, although I feel Austin still would have been cheered the most, followed by Brock. Goldberg was kind of dead in the water at that point anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 WWE didn't want the match to do well. I have always read that Shane McMahon was the one who started the "You Sold Out" chants. That's always puzzled me. How does one guy in the crowd get 20,000 to chant something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Which again is why I think Edge would have been a better choice. It's not like they really used Austin at all much after that. Edge wasn't nearly a big enough name at that point to be taking out Lesnar and Goldberg. The fans would have shit on that just as much. Edge only really became anything resembling a star after the Matt Hardy/Lita stuff and the shocking first Money In The Bank cash in against Cena, followed up by 'live sex' and the other bullshit they put out for his Rated R gimmick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigelow34 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Which again is why I think Edge would have been a better choice. It's not like they really used Austin at all much after that. Edge wasn't nearly a big enough name at that point to be taking out Lesnar and Goldberg. The fans would have shit on that just as much. Edge only really became anything resembling a star after the Matt Hardy/Lita stuff and the shocking first Money In The Bank cash in against Cena, followed up by 'live sex' and the other bullshit they put out for his Rated R gimmick. Speaking of Hardy, I remember being a pretty big deal when he got left off the XX card. He was still hot with the Mattitude stuff and rumor at the time had him facing Mark Henry at the show before Henry got hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Can you blame the crowd for that match? No. No no no. When it comes to the chicken/egg stuff on the shitty match/the crowd shitting on it, in this case I am firmly of the opinion that the match sucked first. You cannot understate how many fucks were not given by both guys, and when the crowd began to turn on them, they not only didn't try to salvage the match, they made it WORSE. I went off on it about six months ago: It is 100% true that the crowd decided to sh*t on this match before it began and werent interested in watching them work. It is hard to say for sure but there's a chance that no matter what they did it would have been crapped on. Having said that, Canned already went into the play by play a few pages ago but it cannot be overstated that they spend THREE WHOLE MINUTES standing in the ring without touching. Or doing anything else for that matter. Over five minutes passed before they got beyond locking up. I just cannot fathom what kind of thought, or lack thereof, went into this where the crowd was restless and hostile and they thought that standing around doing absolutely nothing for five minutes was a good idea. Even if that was how it was laid out, that nobody in the ring thought to get a move on, or didnt care enough to do so, is mind boggling, and pretty staggering from three guys of this stature. If the match had any chance they killed it dead by the way they opened this, and then continued by working a glacially slow pace and standing in headlocks for minutes on end as well. The other thing that astounds me about this is that Brock Lesnar was the worst guy in it, barely a month after having a legit MOTDC and after generally being awesome his entire career up to that point. At least Goldberg's Military Press-Spinebuster combo RULED. I am not up on my Goldberg enough to know if he used it regularly, but God damn I hope so. Also, the way they got to the finish with Brock missing a spear, Goldberg doing that nifty somersault and hitting his own spear was a cool idea. Right before that they did the most pathetic, laziest "hit my finish, stand up, hit your finish" bullsh*t I have possibly ever seen. But this entire match is basically the most pathetic, laziest bullsh*t I've ever seen. Nothing happened prior to the finish either. Like, just nothing. They sat in a headlock for like 2-3 minutes, I guess to rest from all the action they'd been doing up to that point. Brutal sh*t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I believe that they had a different match in mind that they intended on wrestling when they went out there. The crowd took them out of their element and for some reason they decided to just say "fuck it" and do that instead. I blame them for sure, for being unprofessional about it all, but the fans definitely altered the trajectory of the match from the get go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 WWE didn't want the match to do well. I have always read that Shane McMahon was the one who started the "You Sold Out" chants. There's no way this is true. The crowd was shitting on Lesnar in the video packages throughout the show. They had turned on him without Shane's help. I was at the show, Lesnar and Goldberg were getting tons of stuff chanted at them and Shane O'Mac was nowhere near me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted October 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Can you blame the crowd for that match? No. No no no. When it comes to the chicken/egg stuff on the shitty match/the crowd shitting on it, in this case I am firmly of the opinion that the match sucked first. You cannot understate how many fucks were not given by both guys, and when the crowd began to turn on them, they not only didn't try to salvage the match, they made it WORSE. I went off on it about six months ago: It is 100% true that the crowd decided to sh*t on this match before it began and werent interested in watching them work. It is hard to say for sure but there's a chance that no matter what they did it would have been crapped on. Having said that, Canned already went into the play by play a few pages ago but it cannot be overstated that they spend THREE WHOLE MINUTES standing in the ring without touching. Or doing anything else for that matter. Over five minutes passed before they got beyond locking up. I just cannot fathom what kind of thought, or lack thereof, went into this where the crowd was restless and hostile and they thought that standing around doing absolutely nothing for five minutes was a good idea. Even if that was how it was laid out, that nobody in the ring thought to get a move on, or didnt care enough to do so, is mind boggling, and pretty staggering from three guys of this stature. If the match had any chance they killed it dead by the way they opened this, and then continued by working a glacially slow pace and standing in headlocks for minutes on end as well. The other thing that astounds me about this is that Brock Lesnar was the worst guy in it, barely a month after having a legit MOTDC and after generally being awesome his entire career up to that point. At least Goldberg's Military Press-Spinebuster combo RULED. I am not up on my Goldberg enough to know if he used it regularly, but God damn I hope so. Also, the way they got to the finish with Brock missing a spear, Goldberg doing that nifty somersault and hitting his own spear was a cool idea. Right before that they did the most pathetic, laziest "hit my finish, stand up, hit your finish" bullsh*t I have possibly ever seen. But this entire match is basically the most pathetic, laziest bullsh*t I've ever seen. Nothing happened prior to the finish either. Like, just nothing. They sat in a headlock for like 2-3 minutes, I guess to rest from all the action they'd been doing up to that point. Brutal sh*t. A lot of that early stalling could have been used very effectively had the crown either not known or just said fuck it, lets enjoy this to make things more tense when they did start locking up and wrestling, old school style... The whole thing sucks from top to bottom...its a damn shame that: 1. The two of them didnt want to go out on a HUGE note, regardless of their feelings of "how they were treated...GOLDLBERG" 2. The never gave it a shot because they were leaving...they hadnt left yet and werent going anywhere else, should have let it happen and enjoyed it...that was too smarky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Are you saying the crowd should've just enjoyed it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 The Brock news broke weeks before the show, and everyone knew Goldberg was done after his 1 yr contract. It was a lame duck match, which was booked to put Lesnar over, and when he gave his notice after they'd already built the match what could they do? Letting Goldberg win was a nice FU to Lesnar at that point I don't think, under those circumstances, that they could have done anything to win over that crowd. WM XX, MSG, the hardest of hardcore fans.......it wasn't gonna happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 I don't think, under those circumstances, that they could have done anything to win over that crowd. WM XX, MSG, the hardest of hardcore fans.......it wasn't gonna happen. Far from true. Keeping in mind it was Wrestlemania, and you had BROCK and GOLDBERG going at it with Austin as the ref... people wanted action. They had their fun with the "You Sold Out" chants which later turned to boo's when jack shizzle was happening in the ring. When Goldberg did his press slam on Lesnar, the building popped. The fans wanted action and for a brief moment they got it. If the guys gave it their all from the start, the crowd would have been into the match all the way in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted October 27, 2013 Report Share Posted October 27, 2013 Yeah. The crowd being hostile in the beginning is one thing, but they responded to it by stalling for literally minutes on end. And then when they got past that bit, they STILL didn't do anything. At one point they sat in a headlock for over 2 minutes, after having done about two moves total up until that point. They completely fucked around, and then went straight to the finish, which was pretty much 'F5 - kickout - stand up - spear - three count' with zero feeling. Smark crowds weren't so unforgiving as they are now. I dont believe it was like a crowd booing Cena, or that Orton/Sheamus match that was shit on, where there's literally nothing they could do to turn the crowd around. The crowd were mad because both guys were leaving, AND because they were bored. If Brock and Goldberg had responded by upping the pace and giving them the match they should have had, they could have saved themselves from embarrassment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted October 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Are you saying the crowd should've just enjoyed it? No, not at all, but I am saying the crowd could have (and in my opinion SHOULD) have just treated like that kind of "dream type" match it was...gave the guys the cheers and boos they would have not knowing what they were doing the next day....if the match was bad..fine, jeer them, do whatever...but with the crowd doing what they did to start, it never had a shot. Was it totally unprofessional of Goldberg and Brock to let it affect them and act the way they did in teh ring? Absoutely not...but I do think if the crowd was so "smart" it could have been a great match between two big men who've both brought it before on a HUGE stage..regardless of what they were doing the next day... Think about the territory days where a TON of that is made a thousand times better as the crowd acted on what they saw and didnt automatically attack someone cause they were "leaving.." Did some know and do that? Sure...but if those days were like the Mania XX crowd was, we would NOT have the great stuff to watch from teh past that we do... Just too much "Ha ha, I know what your plans are and I am gonna "show you" on the way out..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 No, not at all, but I am saying the crowd could have (and in my opinion SHOULD) have just treated like that kind of "dream type" match it was...gave the guys the cheers and boos they would have not knowing what they were doing the next day....if the match was bad..fine, jeer them, do whatever...but with the crowd doing what they did to start, it never had a shot. Why? They knew both men were leaving after the match so why should they give a shit? Also Lesnar was quitting out of nowhere so of course wrestling fans are going to hate him. Was it totally unprofessional of Goldberg and Brock to let it affect them and act the way they did in teh (sic) ring? Absoutely (sic) not...but I do think if the crowd was so "smart" it could have been a great match between two big men who've both brought it before on a HUGE stage..regardless of what they were doing the next day... Crowd or not, the match sucked. There was nothing for them to get behind. They hated Lesnar for leaving and they weren't going to get behind Goldberg since they knew he was out of there. Then the wrestlers responded by standing there for two minutes. Think about the territory days where a TON of that is made a thousand times better as the crowd acted on what they saw and didnt automatically attack someone cause they were "leaving.." Did some know and do that? Sure...but if those days were like the Mania XX crowd was, we would NOT have the great stuff to watch from teh (sic) past that we do... But this isn't the territory days. Everyone knew they were both leaving and never coming back. Who are they supposed to get behind? What's their motivation to get behind Lesnar? Or root for Goldberg? And again, the match sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 The match wasn't that bad. It fell off after the crowd was determined to sabotage it, yes. But they turned on them very early -- after an extended collar-and-elbow tie-up which was actually well-worked. When the chants started, nothing had happened to warrant that reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 The match wasn't that bad. It fell off after the crowd was determined to sabotage it, yes. But they turned on them very early -- after an extended collar-and-elbow tie-up which was actually well-worked. When the chants started, nothing had happened to warrant that reaction. That took them two minutes to get to. The match was going to suck no matter what, but they didn't help matters. The boos for Lesnar throughout the show were tremendous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 28, 2013 Report Share Posted October 28, 2013 Oh, that crowd can fuck off. Two whole minutes. Boo hoo. I hate it when wrestling fans act like entitled fuckheads and expect wrestlers to give them something special that they only intend to shit on anyway. Like the match or don't, but it's not like anyone was going to give them a chance. They had no chance at all. I think the reason why that frustrates me so much is that one of the reasons Brock left was because he saw a locker room full of guys strung out on pain pills and decided he didn't want to end up the same way. Knowing what we know about wrestlers dying, and knowing it was the last night for both of them in the company, I can understand the mindset of just making it through the night and moving on with life. It may not be the most professional thing in the world, but I understand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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