If Not Flair Then Who?

[JerryvonKramer]

I know Matysik is just one guy, but he was close to Muchnick and with him I honestly don't get the impression that "was he a good heel" came into the consideration that much. Cubetta asks him in passing about Backlund as a possible NWA champ, for example, and he considers it. He rules it out, but the reason is not because he was a babyface. Martel first works in St. Louis in 81, and he's asked about him as world champ and his answer is that "he could have been a good world champ", his reservations were that he wasn't well enough established in key markets -- not that he couldn't work heel.

 

By 81 standards, I realise that Matysik's outlook was "old school", but I think it's worth mentioning here. Are we not looking at this with modern eyes / late 80s eyes a bit too much?

[King Solomon]

I say Orton and Adonis are both close but no cigar guys. For me they lacked that presence a World Champ should have.

Would giving Orton a mouthpiece have helped?

 

Adonis could talk and I think could have souped up his ring presence somehow to "fit the mold", if he needed to.

 

Funny as I just said the same thing about Snuka before I read your post. I see Adonis close to pulling it off as he was such an awesome worker during this time frame.

[Loss]

What about Paul Orndorff?

[King Solomon]

Interesting How Orton was involved in the Bounty angle leading to SC83. Imagine him having the lead role, might be just a bit of a stretch. A mouthpiece might have helped but I actually liked Bob on the mic.

[King Solomon]

What about Paul Orndorff?

 

I Didn't even think about him. After Dibiase, Paul would be my next pick

[JerryvonKramer]

I wonder if Orndorff was a good enough worker or perceived as being good enough.

[King Solomon]

I know Matysik is just one guy, but he was close to Muchnick and with him I honestly don't get the impression that "was he a good heel" came into the consideration that much. Cubetta asks him in passing about Backlund as a possible NWA champ, for example, and he considers it. He rules it out, but the reason is not because he was a babyface. Martel first works in St. Louis in 81, and he's asked about him as world champ and his answer is that "he could have been a good world champ", his reservations were that he wasn't well enough established in key markets -- not that he couldn't work heel.

 

By 81 standards, I realise that Matysik's outlook was "old school", but I think it's worth mentioning here. Are we not looking at this with modern eyes / late 80s eyes a bit too much?

 

From what I understand the future NWA champ had to go around the horn prior to getting belt to get established in the various territories. A Martel would have needed prepping. He was already golden in PNW and had worked Georgia, so he woulda had to make dates in Fla., Texas and of course do the Kiel

[King Solomon]

I wonder if Orndorff was a good enough worker or perceived as being good enough.

 

Yeah it woulda took a bit of out of the box thinking to see the potential as NWA champ in certain guys. This is where some of the NWA Brass mighta got stuck and not gone with an Orndorff.

[Loss]

If we are only focusing on real possibilities, I think we can say if not Flair, DiBiase. The end.

[KrisZ]

Okay

 

Rich wasn't getting it because he just got the belt in May and had a week with it.

 

The major deal at the time was you could tell who was on the immediate radar by who was sent to work GCW on TBS.

 

DiBiase was clearly sent in to get national exposure and seasoned up for a run when needed but Robert Fuller cut him off as booker and put him with him as a team to feud with the Freebirds.

 

Patera went in and got pushed pretty damn hard from the start as he won the Georgia title and was feuding with Tommy Rich but quit a couple of months in and pretty much never worked any NWA territory again.

 

Flair came in and got shots at Race at the Omni plus already had been on TBS since 1978 at various times but you could tell by the way he was pushed in 1981 that he was going to get the title.

 

Loss brought up Orndorff and Paul was definitely on the radar but not at the level of the previous 3.....he came to GCW in 1982 and had a good run with Flair with a solid push but something happened with him once Jim Barnett was shown the door and Ole fully took over.

[JerryvonKramer]

If we are only focusing on real possibilities, I think we can say if not Flair, DiBiase. The end.

I'd like the thread to go another way if we could -- the other variants of this involved people just stomping on various ideas. Maybe we could get all of that out of the system and then entertain the what ifs? And how they might have got to it. That's probably more "fun".

[jdw]

Ok, I don't dispute Thesz worked heel in some matches, the point was that he -- and later Dory and Jack -- in general were more tweener-ish. Set aside the question of Rich, Steamboat and Martel for a moment, you agree at least that there is a distinction to be made between Race and these earlier champions? Yes? I at least want to establish that to know that we're at least on the same page here.

I don't think there's a distinction between Race and those earlier champs. I doubt there was any distinction between Race and Terry, let alone any between him and Buddy Rogers.

 

Brisco? Maybe. But let's be honest that he was *instantly* so good as a heel in the feud with Steamboat & Youngblood, and was so good as a heel against Jumbo, that it wasn't something he pulled out of his ass. He likely played heel a lot.

 

Suspect Dory played heel more than we think... but he likely was boring as shit at it.

 

 

As I see it, Thesz (and O'Connor, and then Dory and then Brisco) all worked a style that could be described as "legit best wrestler" -- they might get pushed close by these local heros but ultimately ring savvy and cunning would see them through. So a backslide or a small package might win them the the third fall in that 45-minute match against whomever. If that requires a sneaky leg on the ropes here and there, so be it.

Lou wasn't even the "best" in his match with Verne. That's the point: it was clear that he was making Verne look like the best (or Verne was that good of a face where he just flat out looked like the best). It wasn't savy or cunning: he was getting his ass kicked.

 

We don't really know a lot of how Dory or Brisco worked in territories: we've got dick for footage. A lot of memories are St Louis based, which really was a different way of working that how Dory was going to working going into a territory with a super over babyface. I kind of doubt that Dory was working with Fritz in Dallas like he was working with Baba in Japan: Baba wanted "sport" and a non-heel champ was fine by him, while Fritz wanted his opponent to show ass and put over Fritz as the Uncrowned Champ.

 

Race (and then Flair) worked a distinctly different style: they were heels through and through. They went in and bumped around and then did something cheap to sneak the win. Your own term, jdw, is "playing the bitch".

 

Would you agree on this essential difference?

Again... Buddy Rogers.

 

There really isn't any evidence that the Territories *ever* wanted a Touring NWA Champ to come in and work regularly against the Local Hero as a Face vs Face or as a Neutral vs Neutral.

 

Let's assume that you're right on Steamboat and Martel (Rich is only listed because Barnett might have pushed for him again),

Rich as a year long champ? Not as all.

 

 

if Ted was going to be champ, it seems to me that he'd have been a champ closer to the first model. There's not a lot about pre-82 Ted I've seen that suggests to me they would have been asking him to play a bitch heel champ in the Harley / Flair mould. If anything, as a worker, he was closer to Backlund (without the headlocks).

If Ted was Champ, he was going to become a heel. Fritz wouldn't have wanted anything else working with his boys. JCP wouldn't have wanted it working against Steamer and the other JCP faces. Dusty in Florida would have wanted Ted to bitch out for him. I mean... can we think of any NWA Territory in 1982 that would have wanted a "tweener" NWA Champ? St Louis maybe, but it's not even a territory: it was a city.

 

Race's replacement would have been someone playing heel.

[jdw]

For me, the problem with that Martel argument is that I never, ever could envision him in ANY sort of a heel role before he turned in the WWF so many years later.

 

How many others that mattered wouldn't have been able to see it either? He seemed soooooooooo entrenched as a babyface throughout the 80's. To me, at least.

 

It did work when he eventually did turn and he was good at it. In 1981 I don't know it would have worked the same way for him.

He was good in his role, but it was a WWF "character" rather than an NWA Heel Champ role. I also don't know how good he was early in it, and it's something that he grew more comfortable in over time. It's been a long time since I've seen it, I never thought much of if (largely because I like Rick as a face), and... it never really got over as something that could be pushed beyond the midcard. He didn't have the strength of personality to take it higher.

 

An example: Razor Ramon was an even dumber WWF "character". But Hall really made it worked, got his shit down in it, and he did well. On some level, if a bit more focus was put on it/him, he could have challenged for the WWF title as a heel or a face. Less over people on both sides got pushed up to the title challenger spots... I'm guessing less over people *won* the title in the time Hall was doing Razor in the WWF.

 

Martel didn't seem to have that in him. He worked hard at the model, but it was just there. Hall worked hard at Ramon, and the shit worked. :/

[jdw]

Anyone think Cowboy Bob Orton would have worked?

 

What about an "in better shape" Adrian Adonis?

What was Bob up to at the time? Did anyone see him close to that level?

 

The NWA Title wasn't like Vince Sr. putting the title on Bob with Bob not having done a lot before that. The NWA Champs tended to have done some shit before getting the belt, and been high on the cards in places.

 

John

[jdw]

I know Matysik is just one guy, but he was close to Muchnick and with him I honestly don't get the impression that "was he a good heel" came into the consideration that much. Cubetta asks him in passing about Backlund as a possible NWA champ, for example, and he considers it. He rules it out, but the reason is not because he was a babyface. Martel first works in St. Louis in 81, and he's asked about him as world champ and his answer is that "he could have been a good world champ", his reservations were that he wasn't well enough established in key markets -- not that he couldn't work heel.

 

By 81 standards, I realise that Matysik's outlook was "old school", but I think it's worth mentioning here. Are we not looking at this with modern eyes / late 80s eyes a bit too much?

80s / modern?

 

Uh... no.

 

John

[jdw]

If we are only focusing on real possibilities, I think we can say if not Flair, DiBiase. The end.

I'd like the thread to go another way if we could -- the other variants of this involved people just stomping on various ideas. Maybe we could get all of that out of the system and then entertain the what ifs? And how they might have got to it. That's probably more "fun".

 

We are entertaining the What Ifs and looking at them one at a time.

 

Some of the What If's are just flat out no's. Little different as in the case of the Race and Backlund threads.

 

There just aren't 30 possibilities out there. There likely aren't 10. There might not even be 5. Race kept the belt for 4.5 years. It's not because he was the hottest greatest NWA Champ of all time. He was solid-good, did good enough business for folks, and no one else was bursting out at the seems as having to have the belt (kind of like Buddy's long overdue reign).

 

It took them 4.5 years of Race to agree to put it on Flair. It's not like Flair was an unknown heel by 1979. But it also wasn't like there was a majority to put it on him rather than Race.

 

NWA Champ was kind of a special thing at the time when it came to the long term (year long + ) champs.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Orton had zero chance since he was working for Poffo's ICW most of 1981 then went to Watts late in the year.

[NintendoLogic]

I haven't seen the match in a while, but my recollection is that Martel worked not-so-subtle heel against Jumbo in All Japan. He wasn't cheating and stooging, but Flair didn't really do that in Japan either.

[Al]

http://www.profightdb.com/pwi-monthly/may-1981-243.html

 

How PWI saw the NWA in May '81...

 

1. Harley Race (reigning champ)

2. Roddy Piper

3. Tony Atlas

4. Dusty Rhodes

5. Ricky Steamboat

6. Dick Slater

7. Ted Dibiase

8. Barry Windham

9. The Masked Grappler (Len Denton)

10. Ernie Ladd

 

If Piper was truly seen at that level, then maybe. Rhodes, Steamboat, Dibiase have been well discussed. Dick Slater seems like an outlier but he had that kind of ability. He really struggled to get pushed sometimes though. Tony Atlas, that's a longshot. Ernie Ladd was on the verge of retirement. Barry Windham was just a rookie at this point. Len Denton to me is a name, I really don't know much about him.

 

The July '81 rankings still have Race on top. Sweet Brown Sugar (Skip Young), Mr. Wrestling II and Les Thornton thrown into the mix. October '81 still with Race on top, they have Ivan Koloff, Sgt. Jacques Goulet (Rene) and Dory Funk thrown in. I'll confess, there's a part of me that would love to start trolling by suggesting it should've been Rene Goulet.

 

By December they list Dusty on top with Flair finally in the top 10. Tommy Rich and Ken Patera in the mix. January '82 we've also got Charlie Cook, Wahoo McDaniel (dark horse), Big John Studd (hahaha) and Peter Maivia (odd as he would've been fighting cancer at that point).

 

February '82 is the first ranking with Flair on top.

 

1. Flair

2. Sgt. Slaughter

3. Tommy Rich

4. Ivan Koloff

5. Harley Race

6. Charlie Cook

7. Dusty Rhodes

8. Blackjack Mulligan

9. Jack Brisco

10. Paul Orndorff

 

Make of that what you will. I don't mean for this to be anything besides throwing out names that the common fan would've seen as NWA title contenders. One outside the box pick I see is Larry Zbyszko. Coming off the Bruno feud, his name value would never have been higher.

[KrisZ]

Don't go by Apter mags.....they always ranked the US champ as the #1 contender and the National/Georgia champ as #2 or #3

[Matt D]

My final answer is Sam Oliver Bass.

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw, I must admit I don't really understand how you can say there's no distinction between Race and Thesz or Brisco or even Dory. In fact, I recall last time we discussed this you wanted to try to bitch me out as thinking of "NWA champ style" as being essentially Flair and said ... let me pull up the exact wording:

 

I'm guessing that you just don't understand what NWA Champ-style means. You think it's how Ric Flair works, period. Some of us have talked about how Lou Thesz was working NWA Champ-style... and that doesn't mean he was working exactly like Ric Flair.

What I thought of as "NWA-champ style" then, as now, is essentially the way Flair worked as champ. But the way Flair worked as champ seems to me to be a carbon copy of the way Race worked as champ.

 

Namely: the face eats up a lot of the match on top, he makes the face look strong, and then sneaks out with a cheap win or even a non-finish. Harley did this routinely, as did Flair.

 

Here you are in another thread talking about "NWA Champ style" with ostensibly something similar in mind:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...p;#entry5563532

 

Back in the ring, classic NWA Champ Begging Off, which we now know goes all the way back to Lou Thezs himself. wink.gif Bob calls him out to the middle, but since Harley is working NWA Champ Style here rather than WWF Heel Style, he forces Bob to come into the corner to kick the shit out of him so that he can go with a nice NWA Champ Style Transition in the corner. Harley uses a headbutt to the gut, and Bob sells the shit out of it. The great thing about it if you watch closely is that in his theatrical selling of the hold, Bob eventually ends up on his side with his head in perfect position for Race to use very little effort to drop his knee right on Bob's skull. I'm guessing this is one of those sloppy, blown spots: positioning yourself to be give your opponent one of his favorite spots effortlessly.

Are you suggesting that the likes of O'Connor, Dory Jr and Brisco all did this schtick of begging off and bitching out for most of their matches? Are you suggesting that the view we get from St. Louis is not right? Are you suggesting that Johnson and Oliver got it wrong when they listed Thesz, Brisco and Dory Jr in their top 20 faces rather than in their top 20 heels? (8, 12 and 19 respectively by the way)

 

 

This is Thesz vs. Wild Bill Longson, let's watch it together.

 

- He's hardly booed out of the building is he, he's signing autographs and being cheered.

- It's mentioned that Longson is not one to quibble about rules. He was sort of cheered too though, but is basically our heel here. Sure enough though, the ref spots some hairpulling by him.

- Thesz goes into a head scissors, all very clean mat-based stuff so far from him.

- Couple of nasty headlock takeovers by Longson now, Thesz struggles but doesn't reach for the hair. Must say, excellent headlock. This ref is a stickler though: breaks it because Longson was using a fist in Thesz's face. They've done a good job of establishing Longson as the more "rough and tumble" of the two competitors.

- Ref starts complaining about fists being used, first by Longson, and then -- in a neat little paypack spot -- by Thesz.

- Thesz takes the first fall and it's pretty obvious he's the face at this point. Not really seeing any evidence of Thesz working like Race or Flair at this point. Not even a tiny bit.

- Series of collar and elbow tie ups here with clean breaks designed to wind-up Longson and make him lose his temper, good tactics by Thesz which are working.

- The emphasis in this match has consistently been on Thesz's quickness and his superior technical ability.

- Some classic heel rope-pulling cheating spots from Longson now.

- Slugfest breaks out, though note Thesz answers punches with forearms. Longson bails. Piledriver wins the second fall for Longson.

- Series of dropkicks gets Thesz a quick third fall.

 

Pure babyface performance against a heel in Texas.

 

This is fun, let's look at some more.

 

 

Thesz vs. Don Leo Jonathan

 

- Weird intros here as both men seem to get quite a muted reaction, you can make out boos for both, but on balance seems Jonathan is the heel

- Awesome, Pinkie George is sitting in the front row! Gets a shout out from the commentator

- Pretty massive reverse chinlock / headlock from Don Leo to start, near wrenches Thesz's head off his neck

- Thesz answers with a hammerlock, Don Leo tries to escape but can't

- Commentator: "I'm not so sure now whether that's Pinkie George or not, I don't believe it is. Matter of fact, I'm certain it isn't" - ha, ha, awesome!

- Don Leo gets a good shot on the ribs to break which riles Thesz into threatening those south paw jabs of his

- Series of headlock take overs by Jonathan now, commentator admonishes him for asking the ref to ask for submission "You stick to your wrestling boy", ha ha

- Cleanish break now but Thesz does something sneaky, he slaps Jonathan quickly before backing up a bit, that'll get you mad. This is just in the category of "wily ring general" in my book.

- Head scissors now by Thesz. Jonathan is complaining to the ref and once again the commentator admonishes him: "not a thing wrong there, Don, he's just got a head scissors on you, that's all". I like this fair-minded yet authoritative commentator.

- Jonathan snaps out of the head scissors really quickly, but Thesz is right there with him -- great little spot. Thesz gets the head scissors on again and Jonathan screams out in pain and frustration -- AWESOME

- Jonathan tries to headstand out of the head scissors. Thesz is having none of it. He flips out eventually and tries to take Thesz over with the headlock -- no cigar.

- Thesz misses a dropkick, Jonathan does a little "hulk up" thing (not a HULK UP, just a little flex of the muscles to show his size), Thesz goes into a headlock.

- Now, as he walks forward out of the ropes he jabs Jonathan in the head with his elbow, and then shows a clean pair of hands to the ref -- again, wily rather than really heelish. And even then the commentator is calling it a fair move "What's the matter boy?", he says. Clearly, we the viewer, are not meant to think there's been any great infraction of the rules there, crowd doesn't boo either.

- Back into the headlock and Jonathan breaks with an Irish whip, Thesz grabs the ropes and quickly comes back in a guarded stance: this is a spot to show what a great and smart wrestler Thesz is -- this guy is the best in the game, it'll take more than that!

- Thesz takes it back down to mat where he gives Jonathan "a few cauliflowers"

- Jonathan tries to escape with a few knees in the turnbuckle. Knee lift, double axehandle. Into a headlock by Don Leo now and then a scrappy sequence in the ropes including a Thesz press.

- Jonathan hits a powerslam and then a big bodyslam. Nonetheless, two dropkicks is enough to win Thesz the first fall.

- Second fall and Jonathan is bouncing off the ropes to do this headlock slam thing onto his knee, quite cool. Does it four or five times.

- It's not enough though because Thesz hits a belly to back suplex which is enough for 1, 2, 3.

 

Again, Thesz worked this like he's "best wrestler in the world". Neither of these two matches bear even the slightest passing resemblance to any Harley or Flair matches I've ever seen. Ever. In short, what the hell are you on about here? I don't mean that in a nasty way, but in a genuine "WTF?!" way.

[NintendoLogic]

It begins...

[JerryvonKramer]

Nevermind.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think I've figured something out: the reason why jdw and I keep on clashing in seemingly every thread. It's probably not the reason I've had in mind for the past few months (that he's a complete tool), it's something else.

 

We see the world in two entirely different ways. Look at our disagreements and the pattern is clear:

 

Where I see a change in style between Race and previous champs, he sees no change

Where I see Vince changing the way wrestling is presented on tv, he sees no change

Where I see Star Wars kickstarting movie franchises and merchandising, he sees, once again, no change ("there were always blockbusters")

Where I see the internet exacerbating generational and cultural gaps, he argues that all generational gaps have worked in the same way since the 1920s

 

Argument after argument after argument, I see change, he sees no change.

 

Even in the bitter Mid-South row, I argued the economic circumstances changed in the area and had an impact, he effectively argued in a way that entirely negated the possibility of that impact

 

jdw's view of the world -- no mater what he says -- is that it is essentially static. You may get "events" but the essential nature of things stays the same like the shadows in Plato's Cave. That's some deep-rooted core belief he seems to have.

 

For him, time and again, if he can point to precedent or something from the past that bears some resemblance to what comes after, it is enough to confirm his thesis that "yes, things have more or less stayed the same".

 

My view of the world is entirely different.

 

-------------------

 

My main concern is that I seem unable to post on this forum at the moment without getting bogged down in one of these disputes. People think he's trolling me. I don't think he is. I just think he might be the one person on earth who sees virtually everything in a way that is diametrically opposed to the way I see it.

 

So first, apologies jdw for some of the abuse I've sent your way. And second, apologies once again because I'm going to put you on ignore again and forever. If people quote you picking apart one of my posts, I'm going to have to try to ignore it. You've done a great job of making this place very difficult for me to post on. I resent the fact that all that happens now is that I say something, you make 15 posts in reply and everyone rolls their eyes. I resent the fact that it's "oh it's JvK and jdw at it again" as if I in some way want this infernal crap to happen. I resent the fact I've been pulled into perhaps the most boring, frustrating and downright tedious feud since the internet began. I hope to fuck this is the end of it now.