WO News and Notes

[Guest Alfdogg]

I want to throw up every time I read "Bret wuz crying about losing a title in a worked business waht a whiny bitch lol".

 

Try taking your HBK blinders off for a second and looking into it a little deeper.

 

Let's set the US/Canada thing aside for a minute. What if you'd been working at McDonald's for five years, busting your ass every night, always showing up on time and helping the newer guys along, then when promotions come along your boss says "I hear Wendy's is hiring" and gives your promotion to Chad, who has five no-call-no-shows in the last month, smokes pot in the break room and serves McNuggets off the floor?

 

(a slightly exaggerated version of the promotion process at my McDonald's, though I never actually *caught* him serving McNuggets off the floor)

[Loss]

That wasn't intended to be Hogan's last match, sek. He was intended to still be working with the company afterward. And the Hogan/Yoko angle is not analagous to Bret's storyline in '97. The only thing that comes close is Hogan/Slaughter at WM VII, and losing that match would have hurt Hogan quite a bit.

[sek69]

It was supposed to be Hogan's last match as champion and probably as a main event guy, which in Hogan's mind might as well have been his last match.

 

I mean, I don't have "HBK blinders", I just don't have this endless love most of the internet community has for Bret. Even in the version of the story that supports Bret the most, he still comes off as incredibly markish.

 

News Flash: Wrestling is a scummy business run by scummy people, and sometmes they do scummy things. I hate to come off as rude here but this is hardly the first time someone loyal got boned for someone who slacked off, either in wrestling or in life. The more Bret (and his fans) complained about it, the more he made himself sound he fell off the turnip truck.

 

News Flash II: Vince is an asshole. There was certainly mounds of evidence before Montreal happened, and there's been lots since. It shouldn't be a shock when an asshole enacts some assholery on you.

[Marty]

Most of my thoughts on the news has already been mentioned by many people here. I'll let people guess whose thoughts and opinions I side with. I would like to switch gears and talk about the matches being discussed.

 

--- Meltz guesses these matches will appear on the set...

vs. Davey Boy (Sumemrslam 1992)

 

- I just watched this the other day. Still really like the match. I have it on DVD, but I can see why Bret wants it in the set. Probably a good choice to have with the DVD set too.

 

vs. Austin (Wrestlemania 13)

 

- A no-brainer. Throw in the Survivor Series match, too, please.

 

vs. HBK (Wrestlemania 12)

 

- I can see why Bret wants this on here, but I sure don't. I already have the thing on the HBK DVD, and I can't justify using another hour of DVD time here, when that hour can be used for other matches. Sadly, I think it's going on here, whether I like it or not.

 

vs. Curt Hennig (Summerslam 1991)

 

- Very good choice.

 

vs. Chris Benoit (Owen Tribute match 1999)

 

- Already on the Benoit DVD, but I can see why Bret wants it on here.

 

--- Other matches that have been suggested and are under discussion include...

vs. Ricky Steamboat (3-8-86, Boston)

 

- I've never seen this match, but I hear very good things about it. I'm all about the Steamer, so yay.

 

vs. Randy Savage (11-11-87, SNME)

 

- Excellent choice.

 

vs. Ted Deibiase (3-8-89, Odessa, TX)

 

- Never seen this, but probably very good. Rare matches are always good. This must be the Coliseum Video release I remember them advertising about back in the day.

 

vs. Andre the Giant (4-23-90, Milan Italy)

 

- Never seen it, but I doubt Bret could pull out a good match versus Andre out of his ass at this point of Andre's career.

 

Hart Foundation vs. The Rockers (SNME)

 

- If this is the match where Demoliton does a run-in resulting in a no-contest, then I'm all for it. Up until the interference, this was one of the best WWF tag matches I've ever seen at that time. I haven't seen this match in 15 years. I so want to see it again.

 

Hart Foundation vs. Road Warriors (3-12-91)

 

- Already on the Warriors DVD. Some fun heel work by Bret, especially the cat-and-mouse spot with Hawk, but I don't justify it being on Bret's DVD.

 

vs. Ric Flair (Bret wins first title, 4-13-93)

 

- Of course, but the date seems wrong. <_>

 

vs. Owen and vs. Yokozuna (WMX)

 

- Owen yes, Yoko no. Throw the celebration, and Owen's reaction, on the documentary/Bret interview portion. The Yoko match sucked.

 

vs. Bam Bam Bigelow (4-24-93)

 

- Never seen it. Can't comment.

 

vs. 123 Kid (7-1-94)

 

- Definitely.

 

vs. Owen (9-29-94, Bret's favorite match with Owen)

 

- I've never seen this match either. Can anyone comment on it? I know Loss really likes a match they had in July. Is this one anywhere near that quality?

 

vs. Hakushi (7-24-95, RAW)

 

- Meh, I always found Hakushi overrated. I'll pass.

 

vs. Isaac Yankem (Summerslam 95)

 

- Pass.

 

vs. Jean Pierre Lafitte

 

- Ouellette can work, but this was such an uneventful time in Bret's career that I can't justify a match like this being on here. Maybe if I re-watch it, I'll change my mind.

 

vs. Davey Boy Smith (12-17-95 PPV)

 

- Yes. I haven't seen this match in quite a while. I remember liking it.

 

Canadian Stampede Main Event

 

- Definitely.

 

vs. Undertaker (One Night Only 1997)

 

- I've only seen the commercial release of One Night Only, which means I've never seen this match. And I hear so much praise for it. I hope they toss it on, and leave the SummerSlam match for the Undertaker DVD.

 

vs. Goldberg (Starrcade 99)

 

- *sigh* I guess this is apropos...

[Loss]

vs. Curt Hennig (Summerslam 1991)

 

- Very good choice.

In addition, I'm also hoping that they will consider their match from the first King of the Ring, which I think is better than this one.

 

vs. Andre the Giant (4-23-90, Milan Italy)

 

- Never seen it, but I doubt Bret could pull out a good match versus Andre out of his ass at this point of Andre's career.

I know Bret has a lot of respect for Andre's mythical standing, so I think this is a case of Bret wanting a singles match with Andre on his set.

 

Hart Foundation vs. The Rockers (SNME)

 

- If this is the match where Demoliton does a run-in resulting in a no-contest, then I'm all for it. Up until the interference, this was one of the best WWF tag matches I've ever seen at that time. I haven't seen this match in 15 years. I so want to see it again.

Definitely a worthy addition. I think the match they had at Wrestlefest '90 was even better, but this is still a good choice.

 

vs. Ric Flair (Bret wins first title, 4-13-93)

 

- Of course, but the date seems wrong.  <_>

Yeah, that date would be 10/12/92.

 

vs. Owen and vs. Yokozuna (WMX)

 

- Owen yes, Yoko no. Throw the celebration, and Owen's reaction, on the documentary/Bret interview portion. The Yoko match sucked.

It was a disappointing match, but it was also a big moment in Bret's career, so I can understand why he wants it here. That said, he and Yoko would go on to have some great cage matches later on house shows, one of which made the Inside the WWF commercial release I believe.

 

vs. Bam Bam Bigelow (4-24-93)

 

- Never seen it. Can't comment.

I believe this is from a UK tour and only aired locally on Sky Sports, or whatever the channel is over there.

 

vs. 123 Kid (7-1-94)

 

- Definitely.

Absolutely.

 

vs. Owen (9-29-94, Bret's favorite match with Owen)

 

- I've never seen this match either. Can anyone comment on it? I know Loss really likes a match they had in July. Is this one anywhere near that quality?

Hmmm ... 9/28/94 is when they had Owen's Last Match, which aired on Action Zone on 10/23/94. According to Cawthon's site, Bret faced Jim Neidhart in Providence, RI, on 09/29. So I'm assuming this date is incorrect as well. The match I'm thinking it is (since it's only one day off) was even the very first match to ever air on the Action Zone show.

 

vs. Hakushi (7-24-95, RAW)

 

- Meh, I always found Hakushi overrated. I'll pass.

Excellent match I'd like to see again, actually. Haven't seen it since 1995.

 

vs. Undertaker (One Night Only 1997)

 

- I've only seen the commercial release of One Night Only, which means I've never seen this match. And I hear so much praise for it. I hope they toss it on, and leave the SummerSlam match for the Undertaker DVD.

That seems appropriate to me too.

[The Thread Killer]

News Flash: Wrestling is a scummy business run by scummy people, and sometmes they do scummy things.

Nicely done, Sek. I actually laughed out loud at that one.

[Guest MJHimJfadeaway23]

vs. Curt Hennig (Summerslam 1991)

 

- Very good choice.

In addition, I'm also hoping that they will consider their match from the first King of the Ring, which I think is better than this one.

 

 

I always thought this.

[Guest Alfdogg]

For the record, my comments weren't directed at sek or anyone in particular, I was just making a general statement. I never hear anyone say that Shawn takes himself too seriously, and I'm quite certain he's reufsed a few more jobs over his career than Bret has. Just simply saying that Bret was upset over losing in a worked business comes off as an incredibly one-sided take on it, is what I was trying to get at.

[Loss]

I agree with you, as you probably figured out. It would be a different situation if Bret was arguing that he should never lose because "the people want me to be bulletproof". He was willing to lose anytime to anyone after getting back in the States.

[sek69]

 

I never hear anyone say that Shawn takes himself too seriously, and I'm quite certain he's reufsed a few more jobs over his career than Bret has.

 

 

Of all the jobs Shawn refused, I never heard him say he wouldn't job because the HBK character was a national hero.

 

I don't recall any of Shawn's refusals coming right before his contract with a competitor was about to start either.

 

Also, wasn't Shawn fired over one of his refusals over jobbing the IC title? He was hired back obviously, but it shows he wasn't unpunished either.

[Guest Famous Mortimer]

Also, wasn't Shawn fired over one of his refusals over jobbing the IC title? He was hired back obviously, but it shows he wasn't unpunished either.

Shows he never learned.

 

I don't think Bret's whiter than white, but I do think with what Loss posted from the Observer, and the rest of the stuff we know about, he was perfectly willing to job- he let a beef with Shawn get in the way of doing business right at the end, but I'm certain Vince is more in the wrong in this sad tale than Bret is.

[Loss]

Of all the jobs Shawn refused, I never heard him say he wouldn't job because the HBK character was a national hero.

And if a pencil had ink, it would be a pen.

[sek69]

Well we're all going to have to agree to disagree I guess. I hate to cop out on an argument, but this kind of discussion has the potential to be more heated than a political debate.

 

Bret vs HBK > Liberals vs Conservatives.

[Loss]

Maybe it's best for it to end, but I think it's been pretty peaceful. My views are based entirely on the facts.

 

Anyway, any other news in the Observer?

[goodhelmet]

There is plenty of news I didn't get to but between school and burning, I haven't ahd a chance to type it up.

[Guest Some Guy]

Well we're all going to have to agree to disagree I guess. I hate to cop out on an argument, but this kind of discussion has the potential to be more heated than a political debate.

 

Bret vs HBK > Liberals vs Conservatives.

And it's sort of ironic that I, the most conservative member of the board tends to side with HBK (or more accurately recognize that Bret wasn't perfect in this situation either), rather than the conservative fuddy duddy that is Bret Hart.

[Guest Alfdogg]

Bret's certainly not free of blame in this, I'm not trying to say that for a minute. But there really are HBK marks out there (again, not directed at you or sek) who say "well the screwjob was Vince's idea" as if Shawn were the innocent man in the middle whose mind was poisoned by the evil billionaire boss and he had no choice. Go ahead and tell me that there's blame to be had for Bret, or even that he's more at fault than Shawn, but please spare me of that line of BS.

[Marty]

I'm usually on Bret's side for these things, but, just to show that I look at things as objectively as possible, I do question some actions of his during that time frame. Most notably, why would he refuse to job to Austin during the six-man match at a house show, just before the PPV? That really makes incredibly no sense to me whatsoever and this was something Meltzer pointed out. After all, Austin is someone Hart has constantly put over many a time, aside from his on-screen character. Plus, Hart's never had heat with Austin. Also, it's only a house show in Detroit. You've heard of wrestlers no-showing house shows (many internet non-faves, and, yes, faves have done this) but a guy refusing to job to a guy who he likes at a house show that's not even in his home country? I really have to wonder how fucked up and egomaniacal Bret's mind was at the time, because I can certainly see how Vince would worry about the status of his championship after that.

 

Also, and this is more of a question than anything, but I wonder if there's anything more about the creative control clause that Bret received in 1996 then what we're not being told. Did Vince offer it, or did Bret ask for it previously? The reason why I think it's very possible Bret asked for it was because of previous years in the company, specifically Bret getting shoved aside for another Hogan run, as well as midcard 1995 run, being in the shadow of the Clique. On top of that, remember when Vince told Bret that he'd get to team with Owen again after the 1994 feud? I often wonder if that would've happened if Bret didn't have his creative control clause. Not just that, but aside from Montreal and the events leading up to it, Hart certainly used that clause a number of cases, like the house show event, as well as (arguably) for good (refusing to beat Rocky Maivia cleanly) or for bad (refusing to job cleanly for HHH twice). It wouldn't shock me if Vince was genuinely concerned about Bret's next move, since for the past year, he certainly put that clause to heavy use.

 

Those are the strongest cases I can think of for the Vince/HBK/WWF side of things.

[Marty]

HTQ PMed me and chimed in with a few things. Some of this stuff I didn't know, some I did. My stuff is in quotes, his is in regular text.

 

---

 

I'm usually on Bret's side for these things, but, just to show that I look at things as objectively as possible, I do question some actions of his during that time frame. Most notably, why would he refuse to job to Austin during the six-man match at a house show, just before the PPV? That really makes incredibly no sense to me whatsoever and this was something Meltzer pointed out. After all, Austin is someone Hart has constantly put over many a time, aside from his on-screen character. Plus, Hart's never had heat with Austin. Also, it's only a house show in Detroit. You've heard of wrestlers no-showing house shows (many internet non-faves, and, yes, faves have done this) but a guy refusing to job to a guy who he likes at a house show that's not even in his home country? I really have to wonder how fucked up and egomaniacal Bret's mind was at the time, because I can certainly see how Vince would worry about the status of his championship after that.

This wasn't down to Bret's ego, as much as it was his response to getting jerked around so much over the Survivor Series finish. It was nothing to do with Austin or anything personal or ego; he was just sick of all the bs going on over SS, and wanted to make a statement.

 

Also, and this is more of a question than anything, but I wonder if there's anything more about the creative control clause that Bret received in 1996 then what we're not being told. Did Vince offer it, or did Bret ask for it previously? The reason why I think it's very possible Bret asked for it was because of previous years in the company, specifically Bret getting shoved aside for another Hogan run, as well as midcard 1995 run, being in the shadow of the Clique. On top of that, remember when Vince told Bret that he'd get to team with Owen again after the 1994 feud? I often wonder if that would've happened if Bret didn't have his creative control clause. Not just that, but aside from Montreal and the events leading up to it, Hart certainly used that clause a number of cases, like the house show event, as well as (arguably) for good (refusing to beat Rocky Maivia cleanly) or for bad (refusing to job cleanly for HHH twice). It wouldn't shock me if Vince was genuinely concerned about Bret's next move, since for the past year, he certainly put that clause to heavy use.

I believe Bret asked for it, and Vince was willing to give it to Bret to get him. As for Bret refusing to job clean for Triple H, the first time, which was part of the European title tournament was Bret prefering to lose to Owen instead. At that point in time, his heat with Shawn was mainly professional. The second time, in the month leading up to SS, wasn't Bret refusing to job as much as refusing to do a job that made no sense. Hunter beating Hart wasn't going to lead to anything, and Hart's position was that beating the champion clean in a non-title match makes no sense if it wasn't going to lead to anything. And he was right on that, because it would make no sense to beat the champ clean for no reason, and it was likely only originally booked that way for non-business reasons.

[Loss]

I'm only bumping this because the issue still hasn't been made clear by anyone talking about it.

 

Is Chris Jericho currently under contract to WWE? If so, for how long?

[goodhelmet]

Sorry about that but there has not been any clear statement in the Observer that I have read that gives a clear answer on his contract situation. this week should shed some new light on the whole ordeal.

[Guest Sass]

Could Jericho jump to TNA by the time their TV show debuts on SpikeTV?

[Loss]

According to Wade Keller, Jericho's contract expired earlier in summer and he signed an extension to stay with WWE through Monday. He is currently not under any type of contract, but WWE expects him back in time to start a Wrestlemania program for him. He's not contractually obligated to go back though. He could legally sign with TNA if they gave him a big offer.

[sek69]

That would be right up there with Luger appearing on the first Nitro if Jericho showed up on TNA.

 

Can you imagine Jericho finally being allowed to do his shit again? I think if TNA could make any sort of respectable offer he'd consider it, just the idea of not having to deal with HHH again would have to weigh heavily.

[Loss]

There are definite benefits. His arrival would give TNA an immediate credibility boost. He could still do all the side projects in the world and have time with his family. The money wouldn't be as good, but his value to the company would be greater and he'd probably have creative control over the direction of his character if he wanted it.

 

The downside is that he'd be getting less guaranteed money, and there's no guarantee that TNA will be in business for any length of time. Signing with TNA would burn bridges with WWE in a major way, and they'd probably bury him on TV constantly, with HHH especially taking lots of cheapshots.

 

In the greater picture, Jericho would be the first big name to voluntarily jump from WWE to TNA, which could start an exodus of talent in that direction. Jericho may or may not be able to talk Rock into making a few appearances since they're close friends. If Bret Hart negotiated with TNA, which is another rumor going around, he'd have another ally.

 

There would still be the chance for sabotage. Jeff Jarrett would definitely feel threatened by him, but if Jarrett's power is no longer an issue, then Jericho wouldn't have to worry so much about it. With guys like Nash and Waltman lurking around, he may still have to worry about getting buried to management.

 

Plusses and minuses both ways, but honestly, I think Jericho is going to get Dudleyed by WWE, since he's voluntarily taking time off, and when they did that, they got canned. That was also after headlining a PPV and doing a big production of a job on the way out. And both Jericho and the Dudleyz were stale as Hell.

 

Lots to ponder.