Matt D Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't know. I think most of us loved Cesaro vs Cena. Did some of us want Cesaro to win? Sure. Did we get excited at Cena's clothesline? Yeah, but I think a lot of it was from a process level (yes! That Cena bump off the apron was great! Oh man! They worked so well together to do that suplex into the ring. Cena's huge! Wait, what's Cena doing with ... oh yeah! Roll through and there's the AA! Great finishing sequence!) and the rest was from a backstage level. (Come on! Elevate Cesaro! Elevate Cesaro!) I related to it. I thought of how cool it was that Cena was having another great match so many years into things with such a broad range of talent and how excited for Cesaro I was that he was getting the chance to do this. i WANTED Cesaro to win, sure, and to have a good showing if he didn't. I don't think I can separate "Is he going to be strong enough to get out of the STF or is the pain too much!" from "Is this the finish of the match? Where are they going with this?" though, even though I can be really into the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Exactly. I loved Cena/Cesaro. I thought they did a great job building, incorporating and executing a number of big spots. After the finish they had me thinking Cesaro might actually win. That uncertainty was real because for a minute there I doubted the outcome that I thought was a lock going into the match. But at no point did I believe what was happening was "real." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I still can't picture the spot. What is "the drop down"? And what is the point being made about it? The sequence goodhelmet describes isn't really that common, so I'm not sure I follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't know. I think most of us loved Cesaro vs Cena. Did some of us want Cesaro to win? Sure. Did we get excited at Cena's clothesline? Yeah, but I think a lot of it was from a process level (yes! That Cena bump off the apron was great! Oh man! They worked so well together to do that suplex into the ring. Cena's huge! Wait, what's Cena doing with ... oh yeah! Roll through and there's the AA! Great finishing sequence!) and the rest was from a backstage level. (Come on! Elevate Cesaro! Elevate Cesaro!) I related to it. I thought of how cool it was that Cena was having another great match so many years into things with such a broad range of talent and how excited for Cesaro I was that he was getting the chance to do this. i WANTED Cesaro to win, sure, and to have a good showing if he didn't. I don't think I can separate "Is he going to be strong enough to get out of the STF or is the pain too much!" from "Is this the finish of the match? Where are they going with this?" though, even though I can be really into the match. Â A tiny, tiny minuscule fraction of people who watch wrestling watch it the way you watched that match (and there's nothing wrong with watching wrestling in the manner you described). And I still say you suspended disbelief on some level based on your description. Â Exactly. I loved Cena/Cesaro. I thought they did a great job building, incorporating and executing a number of big spots. After the finish they had me thinking Cesaro might actually win. That uncertainty was real because for a minute there I doubted the outcome that I thought was a lock going into the match. But at no point did I believe what was happening was "real." Â Suspending disbelief doesn't mean you think any element of wrestling is "real." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Â I don't know. I think most of us loved Cesaro vs Cena. Did some of us want Cesaro to win? Sure. Did we get excited at Cena's clothesline? Yeah, but I think a lot of it was from a process level (yes! That Cena bump off the apron was great! Oh man! They worked so well together to do that suplex into the ring. Cena's huge! Wait, what's Cena doing with ... oh yeah! Roll through and there's the AA! Great finishing sequence!) and the rest was from a backstage level. (Come on! Elevate Cesaro! Elevate Cesaro!) I related to it. I thought of how cool it was that Cena was having another great match so many years into things with such a broad range of talent and how excited for Cesaro I was that he was getting the chance to do this. i WANTED Cesaro to win, sure, and to have a good showing if he didn't. I don't think I can separate "Is he going to be strong enough to get out of the STF or is the pain too much!" from "Is this the finish of the match? Where are they going with this?" though, even though I can be really into the match. Â A tiny, tiny minuscule fraction of people who watch wrestling watch it the way you watched that match (and there's nothing wrong with watching wrestling in the manner you described). And I still say you suspended disbelief on some level based on your description. Â Â If that's the case, then that tiny minuscule fraction is at least some of our group, I'd think. As for the rest, I'd like to hear more elaboration, not because I question it but because i'm curious about your definition. Now, let me try to find an animated gif for Charles on a dropdown. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Oh definitely. That tiny, tiny minuscule fraction has its group headquarters on this board! (And that's part of what makes this place so great) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 That? All this about that? Wow. Â If he just stands there, the other guy is going to crash into him. Why would he do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Hey, this is high level discussion, man. We're breaking down something fundamental and in every match and... I think i saw Buddy Rose do the trip once. Maybe. Â Anyway, one thing I love about lucha is that they do the cool sidestep instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 That? All this about that? Wow. Â If he just stands there, the other guy is going to crash into him. Why would he do that? Â Instead off crashing into him, how about stopping and punting him? Or a stomp to his back? I realize how silly this sounds but why open yourself to give someone a free shot like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't know or care, to be honest. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Why don't wrestlers just shoot each other? They would always get an easy pin, and all they have to worry about is distracting the referee. Plus it takes rematches off the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't know or care, to be honest. :/ Â It's okay that you don't care! I'm kind of curious of the etymology of it (as part of the language of the normal match) though. Just because we take something as a given "this is what they do." doesn't mean that I don't want to know why they do it. It's cool that they do it. I'm okay with it, but I want to know why they do it and I want them to know why they do it too. Â That "rocker dropper position flip" thing bugs the hell out of me because a lot of times I think guys do it because it looks cool. I asked Rollins about it once and he said that he does it to get better positioning on his opponent, so I guess that's okay, but I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'm great with explanations for common wrestling tropes. In fact, I think that WWE assumes everyone has been watching forever and understands the rules of wrestling, so they never take the time to explain basic things in a way that I wish they did. But realism in wrestling talk always puzzles me. It doesn't need to be realistic to be good. I just want it to be as internally consistent as possible. Â I mean, take it all the way and every heel sneak attack outside the confines of the athletic contest should result in an arrest. It's assault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I know people have done the drop down trip, but I see that as something different entirely. I think they're attempting to set up their opponent for something. I don't see it as bad wrestling, in any event. Just one of those things, like rope running in general, that I accept as part of the universe wrestling has created for itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 And with regards to that spot, Steamboat just dropping down into a side headlock position is a pretty common spot in his matches against Flair. It's not unheard of for a wrestler to seize the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think we're not entirely on "bad wrestling" right now. I'm not sure where we are on but it's soemwhere between an etymology of wrestling moves and "suspension of disbelief" note. I'm great with explanations for common wrestling tropes. In fact, I think that WWE assumes everyone has been watching forever and understands the rules of wrestling, so they never take the time to explain basic things in a way that I wish they did. But realism in wrestling talk always puzzles me. It doesn't need to be realistic to be good. I just want it to be as internally consistent as possible. Â I mean, take it all the way and every heel sneak attack outside the confines of the athletic contest should result in an arrest. It's assault. Â That's not really what I meant. I don't want things to be REAL, but I want them to do it for a reason. That reason can exist wholly within the "universe" that they're in where there is absolutely different laws of physics than the real world, thus the effectiveness of the irish whip. I love that wrestling has its own laws of physics. That's awesome. It makes it quasi-sci fi. Â I do want to know why wrestlers first started doing it and if it meant the same thing now as it did fifty years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Why don't wrestlers just shoot each other? They would always get an easy pin, and all they have to worry about is distracting the referee. Plus it takes rematches off the table. Â Â I mean... well... there's always: Â Â Whether either is good or entertaining doesn't have a lot to do with "believe". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 That? All this about that? Wow. Â If he just stands there, the other guy is going to crash into him. Why would he do that? Â Step to the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 FWIW, I don't mind the rope running stuff. Goofy, but it's pro wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 FWIW, I don't mind the rope running stuff. Goofy, but it's pro wrestling. Â It absolutely is. No clue why that bothers me when a few guys setting up and holding position to catch someone on a dive isn't nearly as troubling. Not like it ruins a match or anything, just a spot I'll see, wonder why the hell its happening and then get back to business. If I was getting that caught up in something so insignificant we'd have a bigger problem to address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 It absolutely is. No clue why that bothers me when a few guys setting up and holding position to catch someone on a dive isn't nearly as troubling. Not like it ruins a match or anything, just a spot I'll see, wonder why the hell its happening and then get back to business. If I was getting that caught up in something so insignificant we'd have a bigger problem to address. Â Speaking of guys all getting in position for dives and dive trains, my dad who watched since way back in the JCP days growing up in Greensboro and moving to Richmond, did not care for the Cruisers at all when they showed up in WCW because of the more choreographed nature of the style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think there's also a difference between the everyday and the novel. Something that feels like it's part of the language is fine. Something we haven't seen before that obviously takes a lot of cooperation or involves people moving into places they wouldn't normally be in or doing things they wouldn't normally do is different. Â For instance, someone who never, ever, ever used a power bomb wouldn't try to power bomb Kidman. On the other hand, it's very impressive to me how fluid and organic Rey finds ways to get people into 619 position. When he first started using it, it was a little jarring, but he's gotten so much better at it over the years to where it stopped being bs happenstance or cooperation and has become outright strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Â FWIW, I don't mind the rope running stuff. Goofy, but it's pro wrestling. Â It absolutely is. No clue why that bothers me when a few guys setting up and holding position to catch someone on a dive isn't nearly as troubling. Not like it ruins a match or anything, just a spot I'll see, wonder why the hell its happening and then get back to business. If I was getting that caught up in something so insignificant we'd have a bigger problem to address. Â Â I've told the story before of enjoying Kawada on a spot show side stepping a too slow Ace on a transition move out of the corner and kicking him. Then working a couple more minutes on top before feeding him the next transition spot, which Ace hit crisply and Kawada sold the fuck out of. I'm not a fan of the "waiting around forever for my opponent to hit his spot" moment, and tend to wish there was more Kawadas out there dealing with them. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnival Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think certain aspects of signature selling can fall under the heading of bad wrestling. I love Bret Hart, but how does his chest-first turnbuckle bump make sense as a thing that happens every match? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrklarr Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Returning to the discussion of suspending disbelief, I think it's important to point out that suspending disbelief is not the same as belief. When you suspend your disbelief you do not then believe what you're watching is real. You are simply allowing yourself to buy into what you are seeing; not as real competition, but as something more than grown men in spandex running around like idiots pretending to beat each other up. Â Same goes with any other art form: when you watch a film, you never believe that what you are seeing is real, but it has to be something more to you than people standing in front of a camera playing make-believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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