S.L.L. Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 So I was thinking about responding to Loss saying that the Elimination Chamber match was a top three match in W/WWF/E history by asking how many other EC matches he's seen, since he's followed the current product only sparingly for a while now up until pretty recently. If he had said "not many" or something along those lines, I would have then recommended he check some out, since they tend to be pretty good - sometimes great - matches, and I would've especially pointed to any of the ones Rey was in. I would've illustrated that point by saying Rey was the master of the Elimination Chamber, that he had perfected the gimmick like...and then I found I couldn't finish the analogy, which seems weird. I'm having trouble thinking of guys who were consistently really good working certain types of gimmick matches other than Rey in the Chamber. Like, I'm sure there are a ton of really obvious ones that I'm just airballing on. But as long as it's on my mind, I'm starting a thread on the subject - who mastered working a type of gimmick match the way Rey mastered the Chamber? The kneejerk answer is, of course, Shawn Michaels and the ladder match, but that feels like old smarkthink that might have to be reconsidered. It may still be right, but it feels like something I'd actually have to think about now rather than something I automatically accept as the truth. Does Bill Dundee have any other scaffold matches on tape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Dundee v. Dutch is on tape, Dundee is awesome at on the pole matches too, anything involving climbing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Masters of the ladder match would seem to be more guys like Edge, Christian or Jeff Hardy. Not sure which one, if any, I'd argue for though. Cena is always good for a Last Man Standing. That's a match WWE does really well though so that may not just be him. Shelton Benjamin was always the highlight of any early MITB match, in fact it seemed to be his only reason for employment towards the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Carlos Colon is the master of the barbed wire match, completely incredible in that setting even against middling/poor opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I look forward to seeing Kofi Kingston in a Royal Rumble match due to his creative spots in avoiding elimination. He's put a nice little stamp on that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I've seen the 2008 and 2011 Chamber matches. In fact, I was just telling goodhelmet a few days ago that I don't understand why those matches tend to always get MOTYC play when they aren't at that level, or at least weren't in those years. My ultimate point was this. No one would bat an eye if someone called Shawn/Razor from Wrestlemania X one of the top handful of WWE matches ever. Yet there have probably been three matches in the last week alone that were better than that match. So the standards went way up at some point, and the groundswell of excitement and discussion of how modern WWE's in-ring product compares to the better in-ring periods in wrestling history never really happened. And I guess that's unfortunate, because it's a conversation I would have probably tried to start myself if I was paying closer attention. On top of that, the matches that were recommended viewing were often inconsequential B-show matches not given much time that didn't have much heat. If a match is good, it's good, but I don't think a match can be GREAT with those strikes against it unless it's incredibly special. So it made me think the hype was not necessarily hyperbole, but rather that it was just a niche thing that didn't translate to anything beyond just having a few good matches on the side. WWE was a promotion that had a few great matches a la carte, but the promotion wasn't drastically different overall. They just had a few matches seep through the cracks. When I've watched lately, I've left with the feeling that the heavier focus on in-ring is a key part of the company vision, something that involves wrestlers that are over and something that happens in big matches involving main event guys. Now we're seeing matches that seem to have an important place in the big picture and have hot crowds hit a high level. And I'm not sure when that started, but there's a difference between this and the company throwing out Masters vs DrewMac in a match they don't care about that doesn't really get over in a hugely memorable way. It made me realize that the eras we fondly remember tend to be the well-booked eras, and even then, not so much creative or interesting angles as much as time periods where lots of new people were getting over and everything felt fresh. If you look at the glory days of World Class, Mid South, Memphis or the NWA, that's going to be your common denominator. So even though the booking still leaves MUCH to be desired, WWE is starting to feel that way to me too. And something at the level of Cena/Cesaro would have been a top three 80s Mid South match for me. Now it's just the best TV match of the week. The bar has been raised and that's great news. I'm just surprised a bigger deal hasn't been made of that, not just by WWE, but by the hardcore fans like us who live for this stuff. This is not the WWE from 2002-2005 that just killed my enthusiasm for television wrestling. I wish that point had been made in a stronger and more convincing way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Some of us have been arguing that WWE produces more quality week-to-week wrestling than any company in history for about eight years.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I honestly had the impression that it was just a WCW B-show revival thing, not a company wide thing that reflected the way WWE aims to present its product. I'm not blaming anyone else for that. I think that's on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I returned from my post-Benoit sabbatical in 2010, and WWE didn't seem to be anything special from an in-ring standpoint that year. If it was, it was confined to the undercard and B-shows. Then again, my tastes have shifted pretty significantly since then, so maybe I'd view it more fondly if I revisited it. Anyway, 2010 was a transition year for WWE. In a year's time, HBK, HHH, Batista, Jericho, Taker, and Edge would all be done as full-time performers, and WWE seemed to be scrambling to fill the gap left by their absence. This would culminate in WM27, the worst Mania in recent memory. It seems to me that the real turning point in terms of consistent quality in featured matches was 2011. That was when Punk and Bryan were elevated to being tippy-top guys and Henry got his monster push. As for the question posed in the OP, Foley was the master of the falls count anywhere match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Wahoo McDaneil is the master of the Indian strip match. The Undertaker is the master of the casket match. Dusty Rhodes is the master of the texas bullrope match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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