Thoughts on some of the DVDVR matches

[Tim Cooke]

The Backlund/Rose lumberjack match is the best lumberjack match I have ever seen and kills this one. Look out for it, DVD 7 I believe.

 

Tim

[goodhelmet]

I have two Johnny Rodz matches to go before the Backlund-Rose match but thanks for the heads up.

[Resident Evil]

Curse it all. I'm missing two matches here and I don't know what they are. Anyone know what they are at first glance?

 

 

1)Bob Backlund vs Adrian Adonis (1/18/82 MSG)

 

2)Glamour Girls vs Jumping Bomb Angels (11/24/87 MSG)

 

3)Dynamite Kid vs Bret Hart (9/14/85 Landover, MD)

 

4)British Bulldogs vs Hart Foundation (9/23/85 MSG)

 

5)Dream Team vs British Bulldogs (4/7/86 Wrestlemania 2)

 

6)Bob Backlund vs Adrian Adonis (3/20/82 Philadelphia, PA)

 

7)Randy Savage vs Ricky Steamboat (7/27/86 Toronto, Ontario)

 

8)Sgt. Slaughter vs Iron Sheik (5/21/84 MSG)

 

9)Bret Hart vs Mr. Perfect (10/2/89 Wheeling, WV)

 

10)Sgt. Slaughter vs The Iron Sheik (6/16/84 MSG)

 

11)Steamboat vs Bret Hart 3/8/86

 

12)Bob Backlund vs. Hulk Hogan (4/8/80 Philadelphia, PA)

 

13)Mr. Perfect vs. Ronnie Garvin (12/12/89 Nashville, TN)

 

14)Hulk Hogan vs. Randy Savage (4/2/89 Wrestlemania 5)

 

15)Randy Savage vs Tito Santana (4/22/86 MSG)

 

16)Adrian Adonis/Dick Murdoch vs The Brisco Brothers (12/28/84 MSG)

 

17)Steamboat vs Valentine 6/21/85

 

18)Ultimate Warrior vs Rick Rude (8/28/89 East Rutherford, NJ Summerslam)

 

19)Hulk Hogan vs Big Bossman (3/18/89 MSG)

 

20)Bob Backlund vs Buddy Rose (11/25/82 Philadelphia, PA)

 

21)Bob Backlund vs Sgt. Slaughter (1/10/81 Philadelphia, PA)

 

22)British Bulldogs vs Hart Foundation (11/1/86 Boston, MA)

 

23)Strike Force vs Islanders (10/3/87 Boston, MA)

 

24)Rockers vs Brainbusters (10/31/89 Hersey, PA aired 11/25/89 SNME)

 

25)Brainbusters vs. Hart Foundation (8/28/89 East Rutherford, NJ Summerslam)

 

26)Bob Backlund vs Adrian Adonis (3/28/82 Landover, MD)

 

27)Bret Hart vs Randy Savage (Seattle, WA 11/11/87 aired SNME 11/28/87)

 

28)Bret Hart vs Ted DiBiase (3/8/89 Odessa, TX aired Prime Time 3/20/89)

 

29)Ricky Steamboat/Junkyard Dog vs Don Muraco/Mr. Fuji (8/17/85 Landover, MD)

 

30)Barry Windham vs Dick Murdoch (2/16/85 Philadelphia, PA)

 

31)Hart Foundation vs Twin Towers (5/17/89 Duluth, MN)

 

32)Johnny Rodz/Jose Estrada vs Tony Garea/Steve Travis (9/18/82 Philadelphia, PA)

 

33)Tito Santana vs Butch Reed (5/12/87 Anaheim, CA aired PTW 5/12/87)

 

34)Rick Rude vs Roddy Piper (12/28/89 MSG)

 

35)Adrian Adonis/Dick Murdoch vs Bob Backlund/Brian Blair (7/7/84 Philadelphia, PA)

 

36)Bob Backlund vs Ivan Koloff (Philadelphia, PA 6/4/83)

 

37)Ricky Steamboat vs Jake Roberts (8/9/86 Boston, MA)

 

38)Hulk Hogan vs Randy Savage (1/27/86 MSG)

 

39)Bob Backlund vs Sgt. Slaughter (10/20/80 MSG)

 

40)Ken Patera vs Pat Patterson (4/21/80 MSG)

 

41)Randy Savage/Adrian Adonis vs Tito Santana/Bruno Sammartino (7/12/86 MSG)

 

42)Bob Orton Jr. vs Mike Rotundo (12/1/84 Philadelphia, PA)

 

43)Bret Hart vs Bad News Brown (4/25/88 MSG)

 

44)Fabulous Rougeau Bros. vs Rockers (10/10/89 London, England)

 

45)Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage (3/29/87 Wrestlemania 3)

 

46)Rockers vs Rougeau Bros. (10/13/89 Paris, France)

 

47)Adrian Adonis/Dick Murdoch vs Sgt. Slaughter/Terry Daniels (7/23/84 MSG)

 

48)Hulk Hogan vs Bad News Brown (2/16/89 Hersey, PA aired 3/11/89 SNME)

 

49)Iron Sheik vs Tito Santana (1/21/84 Philadelphia, PA)

 

50)Hulk Hogan vs. Iron Sheik (5/5/84 Philadelphia, PA)

 

51)Hogan vs Macho Lumberjack 2/17/86

 

52)Randy Savage vs Tito Santana (3/16/86 MSG)

 

53)Bob Backlund vs Sgt. Slaughter (3/21/81 Philadelphia, PA)

 

54)Mr. Perfect vs Ron Garvin (3/18/89 Boston, MA)

 

55)Bruno Sammartino vs. Larry Zbyszko (4/8/80 Philadelphia, PA)

 

56)Rougeau Bros. vs Hart Foundation (9/22/86 MSG)

 

57)Tito Santana vs Paul Orndorff (9/1/84 St. Louis, MO)

 

58)Owen Hart vs Barry Horowitz (8/13/88 Los Angeles, CA)

 

59)Rick Rude vs. Tito Santana (2/11/89 Boston, MA)

 

60)Steamboat vs Orton (7/20/85 Landover, MD)

 

61)Pat Patterson vs Sgt. Slaughter (5/4/81 MSG)

 

62)Bruno Sammartino/Paul Orndorff vs Roddy Piper/Bob Orton Jr. (10/26/85

Philadelphia, PA)

 

63)Ricky Steamboat vs. Jake Roberts (8/28/86 Toronto Big Event)

 

64)Johnny Rodz vs Kuniaki "Chin" Kobayashi (11/25/82 Philadelphia, PA)

 

65)Hulk Hogan vs. Nikolai Volkoff (10/3/85 East Rutherford, NJ aired SNME 10/5/85)

 

66)Tito Santana vs Bob Orton Jr. (8/9/86 Boston, MA)

 

67)Sgt. Slaughter vs Rick McGraw (6/20/81 Philadelphia, PA

 

68)Randy Savage vs Ted DiBiase (7/22/88 MSG)

 

69)Andre the Giant vs Killer Khan (11/14/81 Philadelphia, PA)

 

70)Bruno Sammartino vs Larry Zbyszko (4/21/80 MSG)

 

71)Randy Savage vs Bad News Brown (1/16/89 Hamilton, Ontario)

 

72)Powers of Pain/Hart Foundation/British Bulldogs/Young Stallions /Rockers vs Demolition/Conquistadors/Brainbusters/Rougeau Brothers /Bolsheviks (11/24/88 Richfield, OH Survivor Series)

 

73)Jimmy Snuka vs Roddy Piper (7/20/84 St. Louis, MO)

 

74)Honky Tonk Man vs Ricky Steamboat (8/22/87 MSG)

 

75)Hulk Hogan vs Don Muraco (6/21/85 MSG)

 

76)Tito Santana vs Ron Bass (8/22/87 MSG)

 

77)Hart Foundation vs Killer Bees (2/23/87 MSG)

 

78)Greg Valentine vs Ron Garvin (9/30/89 MSG)

 

79).Strike Force/British Bulldogs/Rougeau Brothers/Young Stallions/Killer Bees vs Hart Foundation/Islanders/Bolsheviks/Demolition/New Dream Team (11/26/87 Richfield, OH Survivor Series)

 

80)Les Thornton vs Mr. Wrestling II (3/2/85 Atlanta, GA)

 

81)Bob Backlund vs Stan Hansen (6/6/81 MSG)

 

82)Hulk Hogan vs David Shultz (6/17/84 Minneapolis, MN)

 

83)Dream Team vs Ricky Steamboat/Tito Santana (4/21/85 Toronto)

 

84)Brainbusters vs Young Stallions (11/6/88 Toronto)

 

85)Randy Savage vs Bad News Brown (1/16/89 Hamilton, Ontario)

 

86)Hulk Hogan vs Paul Orndorff (7/7/84 Philadelphia, PA)

 

87)Sgt. Slaughter vs Iron Sheik (5/19/84 Landover, MD)

 

88)Don Muraco vs Pedro Morales (11/23/81 MSG)

 

89)Tim Horner vs Barry Horowitz (12/30/88 MSG)

 

90)Hulk Hogan vs Randy Savage (2/17/86 MSG)

 

91)Ted DiBiase vs Jacques Rougeau (Rockford, IL 9/16/87, Fall '87)

 

92)Don Muraco vs Jimmy Snuka (8/16/83 Philadelphia, PA)

 

93)Hulk Hogan vs. Don Muraco (5/20/85 MSG)

 

94)Hulk Hogan vs. Paul Orndorff (12/14/86 Hartford, CT aired 1/3/87 SNME)

 

95)Ken Patera vs Pat Patterson (12/29/80 MSG)

 

96)Roddy Piper/Bob Orton Jr. vs Jimmy Snuka/Tony Atlas (1/12/85 Philadelphia, PA)

 

97)Sgt. Slaughter vs Paul Orndorff (6/2/84 Philadelphia, PA)

 

98)Hulk Hogan vs Bob Orton Jr. (5/12/87 Anaheim, CA Superstars aired 5/23/87)

 

99)Adrian Adonis/Dick Murdoch vs Mil Mascaras/S.D. Jones (Spring '84 St. Louis, MO aired TNT 6/26/84)

 

100)Hulk Hogan vs. Ted DiBiase (3/12/88 Philadelphia, PA)

[goodhelmet]

It may take half an hour or so but you can always put them in chronological order and match it up against the list I posted in this thread.

 

At first, I automatically assumed it was Andre-Khan since it wasn't in the last 10 slots. Then I saw it at 69.

[World's Worst Man]

Greg Valentine vs. Ron Garvin (9/30/89) - This was getting pimped pretty hard, and while I kind of know why, it really doesn't legitimize the match at all. It was a stiff contest yes. But that was all. The work never went anywhere, and it was pretty much a big snoozefest when they weren't stiffing each other. Directionless and pointless.

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Big Bossman (3/18/89) - Another heavily pimped match, which leaves me scratching my head. Maybe I'm being too picky, but this was the most business exposing match I've ever seen. The stalling that BBM had to do when he was waiting for Hogan to grab him off the cage was unbelievable. This was a good 8-10 seconds of doing NOTHING just so Hogan could get up and they could do the suplex spot. And for the record, Hogan is to blame here, not BBM. Then the finish, where BBM was clearly able to escape through the door, but simply didn't because he wasn't going over. Again, BBM wasn't to blame, it's whoever came up with such a moronic finish. Other than that it was a decent-good match. But I fail to see how one could come to that conclusion overall, considering how gigantc the flaws were.

 

Glamour Girls vs. Jumping Bomb Angels (11/24/87) - I'm not big on giving props to average-decent matches, just because they're wrestled in a unique or fresh style. Obviously, the JBA's style was unheard of in WWF at the time, but that really has nothing to do with how well the match was wrestled. Their opponents were terrible, so there was only so far the match could go. Even so, it was just a spotty Joshi match, not unlike what you'd see on an AJW undercard. Actually, if this had happened on an AJW undercard, I'd probably rate it a bit lower than I had here. Maybe that's the disadvantage of watching the match through the eyes of a joshi fan, but the match was what it was.

[Resident Evil]

It may take half an hour or so but you can always put them in chronological order and match it up against the list I posted in this thread.

 

At first, I automatically assumed it was Andre-Khan since it wasn't in the last 10 slots. Then I saw it at 69.

I just copied and pasted your list and took a match off whenever I found it on my list. I came up with Savage vs Bad News and Roberts vs Dibiase.

[goodhelmet]

MisawaGQ, have you watched the earlier Backlund-Slaughter-Adonis stuff? If so, what did you think?

[goodhelmet]

Johnny Rodz/Jose Estrada vs Tony Garea/Steve Travis (9/18/82 Philadelphia, PA)

--- I did not like this match at all, and like several other matches, I am left wondering why it was included. Poorly executed and sloppy as hell. It lasted a long time so I guess that was one of the reasons it was selected.

 

 

Johnny Rodz vs Kuniaki "Chin" Kobayashi (11/25/82 Philadelphia, PA)

--- If this match woudl have been a New Japan match, it wouldn't even crack the Top 200. Sloppy, blown spots and a hostile crowd. The finish was wierd as I could see the enziguri ending the match but not the sloppy cross-body. Then again, the 3 count was insanely fast so I guess Rodz could keep his heat. Whatever.

[World's Worst Man]

MisawaGQ, have you watched the earlier Backlund-Slaughter-Adonis stuff? If so, what did you think?

I thought the first Backlund-Slaughter (1/10/81) match was merely average, but I was really high on the rematch in the cage. It's actually my #5 through 70 matches. The 1980 Backlund-Slaughter match I thought was rather below average. Haven't seen the Backlund-Adonis matches yet, although I'm really liking Adonis, so those matches should be good. Although Backlund seems really hit or miss so far. He's solid in some matches, but others it seems like he's not interested in working.

[goodhelmet]

We'll have to disagree on Backlund. Even though I don't think highly of all the matches, I do think he has brought his working boots in all of them. Also, the Adonis series is better than the Slaughter series by far.

 

Also, I want to know why you have that cage match so high.

[Loss]

I know Goodhelmet hasn't seen it, so I understand in his case, but I don't know why everyone else isn't freaking out over the Rockers/Rougeaus match from England. That comedy stuff in the opening minutes is just fantastic.

[goodhelmet]

How is the rest of the match? I didn't really get a feel from your write-up. Also, did you ever go back and watch Slaughter-McGraw?

[Loss]

Still haven't watched Slaughter/McGraw.

 

The rest of the match is pretty standard face-in-peril stuff that isn't as "vicious" as I think heels working over a face should be, but technically, they're doing everything right in terms of ref distractions, comedy spots, distracting the ref, etc. Standard stuff, but they captured the audience so amazingly well early on that it seems better than it really is.

 

To me, guys who can have a good match without taking any bumps or even making contact for nearly the first half of the match epitomize what "working" in wrestling really is.

[World's Worst Man]

Also, I want to know why you have that cage match so high.

It was believable and had some neat spots to get over that point.

Slaughter immediately trying to escape over the top was a nice touch, since the cage was low enough to where he could easily escape if Backlund wasn't paying attention. Pretty much all of the cage escape attempts looked convincing, as Sarge would try to kick Backlund off and clutch and grab everything he could to pull himself out of the door. I liked the one attempt where he was being pulled back, but still had his fingers on the door frame. One hand lost grip, so then Backlund just got up and kicked the other. And probably the best escape attempt came right in the middle of Sarge getting thrashed. Backlund was laying into him, and Sarge kind of staggered away dazed. Except he was right near the door so he jumped though, and Backlund caught him at the last minute. It was just a brilliant spot. The spot before the ending was also extremely well done, when both guys were up top slugging it out. You kind of knew that was going to decide the match, and it pretty much did.

 

They basically worked a match where the heel was taking a beating, but was actually closer to winning throughout the match than the face was. Smart way to keep the crowd hot while also keeping the outcome in serious doubt.

[goodhelmet]

I agree that the match had some great spots. I even said as much in my quick recap. My biggest problem is that Slaughter had gotten the best of Backlund in his two previous encounters. Why would he play a coward? If it was a smaller guy in there like Ric Flair, I would probably embrace him in that role. However, this is the big bad Sarge not even attempting to be a sadist in any way. I like the match, don't get me wrong. Still, I think there are much better matches including the Backlund-Rose lumberjack match that I watched today but need to rewatch to capture my thoughts.

[World's Worst Man]

Most of the Slaughter matches I've seen, he was bumping around and getting his ass kicked like he was in this match, so I figured it was natural for him

 

I've only watched 5 volumes so far, and it looks like there's a lot of good stuff on the last 3, so I dunno where this match will end up when it's all said and done.

[World's Worst Man]

Bob Backlund vs. Adrian Adonis (1/18/82) is my new #1, and I doubt anything will knock it off. Backlund's arm work was great. Unlike the Hogan match, he was actually working the holds and stretching the arm all sorts of ways. Great sequence of counters that moved the match out of the build phase, then it was just back and forth warfare for 15-20 minutes. The only problems I had with the match was that Backlund's arm work never went anywhere, Backlund essentially no-sold the piledriver when he caught Adonis on the top rope and the finish was awful. Still, the positives were enough to make this match an easy #1.

[World's Worst Man]

Ricky Steamboat/Junkyard Dog vs. Don Muraco/Mr. Fuji (8/17/85) - This was a fine example of a match that is structured well, but sucks because the work itself is awful. JYD and Fuji are just terrible. JYD can't even run the ropes here, and he also botches a simple lariat spot. Fuji's pathetic offense really ruins the heat segment on Steamboat. If a match has great wrestling, but no psychology, people call it a spotfest and rate it low. So why should a match with good psychology and god-awful wrestling be praised? Bottom 10-15 match.

[Loss]

So why should a match with good psychology and god-awful wrestling be praised? Bottom 10-15 match.

Because "wrestling" is just the acrobatics of it and psychology is the story the match is trying to communicate to the audience. It's impossible to have a bad wrestling match with good psychology, or a good wrestling match with bad psychology, at least from my point of view.

[World's Worst Man]

So why should a match with good psychology and god-awful wrestling be praised? Bottom 10-15 match.

Because "wrestling" is just the acrobatics of it and psychology is the story the match is trying to communicate to the audience. It's impossible to have a bad wrestling match with good psychology, or a good wrestling match with bad psychology, at least from my point of view.

I should have been more specific, because I meant to say story as opposed to psychology, because psychology covers too much ground, like selling, timing, etc. So lets just assume I'm talking about the story/match structure. But the wrestling execution is important anyway. How much does a face-beatdown segment mean if the heels are using weak and pathetic looking offense? What about if when the face makes the big comeback, he's botching moves and looking like he couldn't crack en egg? It ruins the illusion. I always thought the point of looking at matches with a critical eye, and giving them ratings, was done to give an objective look at the entire match, not just one part of it. Otherwise we're no different than marks who sit in the crowd and pop for face comebacks or heel beatdowns without actually looking at what's being done to get those stories across.

[goodhelmet]

I think this is where Loss and I disagree most on what we want out of wrestling. I like the "dance" part of wrestling, the acrobatics on display, the cooperation of two wrestlers telling a story through moves. I have always gotten the feeling that he doesnt care for this part. However, we usually enjoy the same matches, I just think we enjoy them for different reasons.

[sek69]

You know, I always thought American and Japanese wrestling fans had more in common than they realized. American fans always popped for the babyface comeback, the hot tag, the scrappy underdog. So do the Japanese, only they had a term for it: "fighting spirit".

 

Whether it's Hogan "Hulking up", Ricky Morton enduring a pounding to finally make the tag, or someone like Rey Mysterio taking on guys literally twice his size; American fans love nothing more than to rally behind the guy who looks like he's got no chance.

 

Sometimes people who appear to be looking for something entirely different end up rooting for the same basic concept.

[goodhelmet]

Bob Backlund vs Buddy Rose (11/25/82 Philadelphia, PA)

 

--- One of the first things you notice right off the bat is Rose working to get the lumberjack stipulation over. This is the first one I have seen where the lumberjacks really prevent the wrestlers from leaving the ring. Eventually, Backlund falls to the floor but for the most part they are forced to stay in the ring. I love the way Backlund works over the arm and ries to yank it out of its socket. When Rose gained control, I really enjoyed Rose's offense esp. the stiff stomp to Bob's face and the disturbing knee drop from the corner. If this match has a main weakness, at the end, they don't really build toward a finish. Bob just slaps the Chickenwing Crossface in and calls it a day. At least he had spent a large part of the match working over the arm to make it believeable. This could be Top 20 but I just don't know yet.

[goodhelmet]

Before I give my thoughts on these next two matches, keep in mind that these were the only two matches from 1983 that were nominated. I KNOW there has to be more matches from 1983 that deserved to be considered.

 

Bob Backlund vs Ivan Koloff (Philadelphia, PA 6/4/83)

--- Since I started watching all of these Backlund matches, I can't get enough of this guy. The earlier matches bothered me because he continued to work on the arm and it never really played into the finish. Now that I am seeing the Crossface chickenwing more often, it helps the mathes immensely. However, this is probably one of my least favorite Backlund matches on the set. I think they ended way too quickly and the work in the ring seemed to imply they were going long. Personally, I like watching Ivan Koloff, and can't wait to see how he is evaluated in the NWA set, but this match will be stuck in the middle somewhere.

 

 

Don Muraco vs Jimmy Snuka (8/16/83 Philadelphia, PA)

--- Man, when Snuka is connecting with his signature spots and throwing headbutts and hopping and jumping and chopping, I can see why he was one of the most popular wresters of the 80s. Butt man, if I never see another chinlock it will be too soon. For the most part, this is a match of dueling restholds. This isn't working body parts and setting it up for a final run. This is laying around until they decide to pick up the pace. It isn't without some merit. Snuka does a pretty good job of working over Muraco's wound after Don starts bleeding. Add a bad looking ref bump and a bad finish and this one goes somewhere deep in the bottom half.

[sek69]

One thing that surprised me was the VQ on some of these matches. I understand that some of these matches were rare finds but I'm surprised they didn't cause goodhelmet to have a stroke.

 

I've been watching a lot of Adrian Adonis on this set, mainly because he always impressed me as a young mark despite being a fat guy firmly entrenched in the Adorable gimmick. Watching him work without having to sell a gimmick made me really appriciate what a solid in ring talent he was. I used to look at the WWF tag title history and see Adonis and Murdoch listed and think "wtf?" but now thanks to this and the Mid South set I can say they are probably two of the most underrated guys ever.