goodhelmet Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 In addition to Jim Duggan and Magnum TA, Murdoch and Adonis are the two wrestlers who have made the most impressions on me since the beginning of the summer. My wrestling history is so weak, I had no idea they were tag champs at one point until this DVDVR set came along. As for the VQ, I am making it my quest to replace the good matches with quality footage. It will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Murdoch and Adonis are the best NWA tag team in WWF history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Murdoch and Adonis are the best NWA tag team in WWF history. *points at the BrainBusters* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 I think Murdoch and Adonis were better, if we're talking WWF runs actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Bob Backlund vs Buddy Rose (11/25/82 Philadelphia, PA) --- One of the first things you notice right off the bat is Rose working to get the lumberjack stipulation over. This is the first one I have seen where the lumberjacks really prevent the wrestlers from leaving the ring. Eventually, Backlund falls to the floor but for the most part they are forced to stay in the ring. I love the way Backlund works over the arm and ries to yank it out of its socket. When Rose gained control, I really enjoyed Rose's offense esp. the stiff stomp to Bob's face and the disturbing knee drop from the corner. If this match has a main weakness, at the end, they don't really build toward a finish. Bob just slaps the Chickenwing Crossface in and calls it a day. At least he had spent a large part of the match working over the arm to make it believeable. This could be Top 20 but I just don't know yet. I noticed you mentioned the arm a few times and how Backlund works it over and doesn't do anything to build to a final move is a problem for you at times. The thing is, not all body part work has to play into the finish. The point of the body part work is to make clear to the viewer what the strategy is. If it's established that the crossface chicken wing is Backlund's finisher and he's working on his opponent's arm, even if he never hits it, we can see that he *intended* to hit it because he was working toward it. If it's a strategy that's communicated well to the viewers, regardless of whether or not it works, I think that's all that matters. On that same note, some of the best finishers aren't built up at all. Destroyer and Ted DiBiase both used the figure four and neither guy typically worked over the opponent's knee in the setup to the move. It didn't take away from the move's effect when it happened. Another thing to take into consideration when watching these matches is the context of the time. Finishers weren't portrayed as the life or death moves that they are now in the 80s, and matches weren't really worked in quite the same way. Squashes usually ended with the big move, but big matches almost never did -- partially because they booked based on hierarchy and the wrestlers had to dig deeper to beat a bigger star, and partially because the idea of a top star doing a job was insane in that era, for whatever reason. Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you said, just some food for thought. Anyway, Backlund reminds me *a lot* of Destroyer, and that would have been a major dream match for me. It's a shame it didn't happen, at least not in a form that is widely available for viewing now. I get the same feeling watching Backlund when I do Destroyer in that there's lots of really dazzling matwork and athletic feats that are used to shock and surprise the other guy and catch him off his guard. Destroyer made wrestling look so effortless, and Backlund is the same way. They both also communicate a lot of simple joy in all moves, big and small. I love the way Backlund gets that silly smile on his face just from doing a takedown or an armbar or whatever, just because he's having so much fun. I do consider Destroyer far superior based on the limited footage of him that is available, but he and Backlund definitely have the same vibe. Rambling over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 If it's a strategy that's communicated well to the viewers, regardless of whether or not it works, I think that's all that matters. I would agree if the announcers would have put over the Chickenwing Crossface as his finisher. It wasn't even something he attempted in the first few matches on the set. I think it was added to his repertoire later. On that same note, some of the best finishers aren't built up at all. Destroyer and Ted DiBiase both used the figure four and neither guy typically worked over the opponent's knee in the setup to the move. It didn't take away from the move's effect when it happened. Yeah and it doesn't bother me if the company stresses and respects submission finishers. For example, in latter-day WCW and even the WWE today, I expect someone to work over a bodypart before hitting a submission because they have taught us that most submissions are weak nowadays. With lucha, I know if a guy is in a submission, he is tapping out right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 25, 2005 Report Share Posted October 25, 2005 I don;t know if I watched too many matches in such a short time or what, but I really don't feel like going past 1984 in this WWF ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 One thing that hurts is the early 80s WWF stuff tends to blend together after a while. I can see why Vince K. was eager to get control to spice things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 Actually, the opposite is true in my case. I don't really look forward to watching 15 Hulk Hogan matches. Savage, Steamboat, Jake the Snake, Mr. Perfect, etc. Been there, done that. Knowing that there is no Adonis or Backlund to look forward to is bumming me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 I'm having trouble motivating myself to watch the last few discs. Did you get your discs from one of the "official" places? If so, I guess you kinda have to watch unless you want to be banned from the board and not allowed to receive any more DVDs. Who knows if they'll follow through with that, but they did threaten it early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 I found it helps to bounce around rather than trying to plow straight through all 8 discs. Savage-DiBiase was an excellent cage match, and it was a break from the Backlund-Adonis stuff, so it was a chance to cleanse the palate and avoid getting burned out. Any time you have fans climbing the cage, you know you got some heat going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 The fan climbing the cage was awesome. I thought the actual match sucked, considering it was DiBiase and Savage in there. Bossman/Hogan cage is much better as is Rude/Piper from the set. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 I'm having trouble motivating myself to watch the last few discs. Did you get your discs from one of the "official" places? If so, I guess you kinda have to watch unless you want to be banned from the board and not allowed to receive any more DVDs. Who knows if they'll follow through with that, but they did threaten it early on. Does Tim count as official? ") I don't really think they will be banning anyone anytime soon the way things have gone with distribution. I still intend to turn in a ballot and the deadline has been postponed indefinitely so I will motivate myself at some point to continue watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 31, 2005 Report Share Posted October 31, 2005 What was the deal with Nick Bockwinkel on commentary for some of those matches? The time frame would have been during his last AWA run and I don't recall him ever doing anything with the WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Thoughts on a few matches I watched earlier today ... Savage v Steamboat 07/27/86 -- MUCH better than the WM III match from where I sit. Good early stage work with Steamboat repeatedly going back to the armbar for no real reason other than to piss Savage off. This feels more epic than the Silverdome, which is quite the accomplishment when they're working in front of a smaller crowd. Savage's bladejob is pretty wild, and I love the fire on display here from Steamboat. This match stands out very strongly in the context of the surrounding footage if only because it was so well-booked. Too many 80s matches have the heel getting screwed by getting the rightful fall after a ref bump, but in this case, it's more of a case of Steamboat being in control at that point. Finish is pretty cool as well. Steamboat v Roberts 08/09/86 -- Another very good match, although I think I liked the Savage/Steamboat match better, but only because they didn't screw over the heel after the ref bump. They unfortunately did that spot here and it sucked, as always. Jake working over Steamboat's arm is gold, and his acting all the way through is pretty close to perfect. This will probably be top five or top ten on my list, not sure yet. Patera v Patterson 12/29/80 -- This match did absolutely nothing for me. Hogan v Bad News Brown 02/16/89 -- This match did nothing for me either. Overbooked and underworked. Hogan v Big Boss Man 03/18/89 -- Aside from The Big Spot, this didn't feel all that special too me. The cage superplex took WAY too long to properly set up. What they did right (sell it like it's a major death spot for minutes afterward) was lost in what they did wrong, I thought. Nice pacing and good story, but I give the agents more credit than I do Hogan and Boss Man for that. Hogan v Savage 02/17/86 -- Fun match, but not a particularly good one. This is like the Wrestlemania V match, only in Cliffs Notes form with too much booking and distraction. Savage juices here, which is a nice touch, but the match didn't go nearly as long as it needed to for Hogan to just shake off the big elbow. They built to that better at Mania and it didn't come across nearly as hokey. Savage v Santana 03/16/86, 04/22/86 -- Santana is someone I'll have quite a bit to say about after I get through these discs, because his inconsistency is so frustrating. He outworks Savage in both matches in this case, and his bumping, selling and babyface fire is stronger than in 99% of the Steamboat matches on this set. I don't know where he left that attitude the rest of the time. Hogan v Muraco 06/21/85 -- Don't like escape rules cage matches as a rule. This one didn't totall stink, but I wasn't all that impressed with it. Too short, considering they were selling like they were performing Shakespeare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted November 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Thoughts on a few matches I watched earlier today ... Savage v Steamboat 07/27/86 -- MUCH better than the WM III match from where I sit. Good early stage work with Steamboat repeatedly going back to the armbar for no real reason other than to piss Savage off. This feels more epic than the Silverdome, which is quite the accomplishment when they're working in front of a smaller crowd. Savage's bladejob is pretty wild, and I love the fire on display here from Steamboat. This match stands out very strongly in the context of the surrounding footage if only because it was so well-booked. Too many 80s matches have the heel getting screwed by getting the rightful fall after a ref bump, but in this case, it's more of a case of Steamboat being in control at that point. Finish is pretty cool as well. Hogan v Savage 02/17/86 -- Fun match, but not a particularly good one. This is like the Wrestlemania V match, only in Cliffs Notes form with too much booking and distraction. Savage juices here, which is a nice touch, but the match didn't go nearly as long as it needed to for Hogan to just shake off the big elbow. They built to that better at Mania and it didn't come across nearly as hokey. Savage v Santana 03/16/86, 04/22/86 -- Santana is someone I'll have quite a bit to say about after I get through these discs, because his inconsistency is so frustrating. He outworks Savage in both matches in this case, and his bumping, selling and babyface fire is stronger than in 99% of the Steamboat matches on this set. I don't know where he left that attitude the rest of the time. Yes! You're only the second person I've ever known who likes the MLG match better than the Mania match. I think I must've watched this bout about 13 times over the years as its replay value is incredible. I rated this very high in my top 100 list. I gather you liked the Savage vs Steamboat matches. The cool thing if I remember right about the 2nd match is that it's really Savage who takes most of the punishment but the match still manages to do a great job of making you root for Santana and never feeling sympthany for Savage. I remember loving this match. From what I read of your reviews Loss I see that you have more diversified opions than the average fan. One never exactly know what Loss will think of a match. That makes your reviews interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Thanks! Bob Backlund v Ken Patera 05/19/80 It's practically a crime against nature that this match didn't make the DVDVR set. Unbelievable heel performance from Patera, building his kickouts so effectively throughout the match (going from 1-count kickout to 2.9 in slow fashion with Backlund getting closer to victory every time). Normally, I'd consider it silly to use moves like abdominal stretches in a Texas Death Match, but Backlund's body language makes the move work, because he starts acknowledging the crowd and it comes across as an excited "We got 'im! We got 'im!" and it rules, and the fact that he's covered in blood while doing so makes it a great visual. This would have been my #2 pick had it been selected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 Nearly two months since anyone has posted in this topic. Unpinning. If it sustains itself, great. If not, it'll fall to the bottom of the page, just like other threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 Good idea actually. After talking to Dan, I do not think I will be participating in any future voting sessions. I know for a fact that we can create a more comprehensive w/ better VQ Mid South set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 Agreed. I think we could probably do a better WWF set as well if we ever made the choice to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 Early prelim stage as we speak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 I'm starting to think that people are watching different matches to me, as people on the DVDVR boards have started to say Savage couldn't carry anyone and needed to be guided by a smart worker. Savage vs. Angle, Anyone else struck by this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 I actually think Savage was a great carrier and was lost when he was in the ring with someone as good as him or better than him, because he was a control freak and didn't know what to do. I will post that in that thread later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 That thread made me cry since it's a pretty safe bet no one posting in it has ever seen pre-WWF Savage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 I agree with Loss that Savage could carry someone (Hogan, WM5) but that doesn't necessarily translate into a good match. Again, this is an old topic that Loss and I just disagree on, same with the merits of the WM3 matchup. And I also think Savage had great moments with great workers but not as many as we would have hoped for. Part of this is his reliance on scripting the matches even if it doesn't call for it. This would be similar to Flair having mediocre matches with great performers because he insists on working his match regardless of the strengths of the opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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