BillThompson Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Dylan suggested I start a topic, so here it is, Here's the list, feel free to mock afterwards, or to move this to its own thread if it spawns any actual discussion, 50. Akebono 49. Seth Rollins 48. Dolph Ziggler 47. Zack Sabre Jr. 46. Chessman 45. Adam Cole 44. Cedric Alexander 43. LuFisto 42. Hechicero 41. Masato Tanaka 40. Mark Henry 39. Rey Escorpion 38. Tomoaki Honma 37. Kevin Steen 36. Emma 35. Tyson Kidd 34. Shaun Tempers 33. Volador Jr. 32. Mark Briscoe 31. Kazuki Hashimoto 30. Christian 29. Averno 28. Roman Reigns 27. AJ Styles 26. John Cena 25. Fuego Guerrero 24. Alberto del Rio 23. Shinsuke Nakamura 22. Jay Briscoe 21. Biff Busick 20. 911 19. Sasha Banks 18. Sheamus 17. Charles Lucero 16. Titan 15. Tomohiro Ishii 14. Heidi Lovelace 13. TAJIRI 12. Rush 11. Luke Harper 10. Dean Ambrose 9. Titus O'Neill 8. Cesaro 7. Sami Zayn 6. Matt Hardy 5. Goldust 4. Chris Hero 3. Daniel Bryan 2. Negro Casas 1. Timothy Thatcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I disagree with Matt Hardy being top 50. I think Jeff Hardy has been doing consistently better stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I think Matt's resurgence on the indies is being overlooked by most people. He's been great in every match I've seen, and a few of the matches themselves have been great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 He's been better this year but I haven't liked the handful of matches I saw. Jeff has been quietly a really solid performer since that debacle with Sting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Jeff's been okay, I certainly haven't found him terrible, but he's only really shined in tag matches with Matt, where Matt was still by far the better performer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Actually, I saw Matt in a pretty bad match a few weeks ago at an APW show here in Daly City. Really paint by the numbers type stuff except for a couple of spots where he tried to get the crowd to count along and it didn't go well. That, plus the horrible Chris Hero/Jeckels match hadn't really left my mind at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I love threads like this not only because I'm a list geek, but also because it means I might get pointed to some new wrestlers and/or matches I should be paying attention to, and helps me to fill in the gaps with those who I have been following but maybe not as closely as I should. I also love to hear peoples explanations for this sort of stuff, so now Bill is going to have to tolerate me dissecting his list, not so much because "he is wrong," but because I want to see why he rated some of these folks where he did. So, starting at fifty and working my way through in chunks... 50. Akebono 49. Seth Rollins 48. Dolph Ziggler 47. Zack Sabre Jr. 46. Chessman This is an interesting grouping of guys. I haven't thought a great deal about how I would rate people so far this year, but the only one of these I'm positive would make my top fifty is Rollins (Akebono and Ziggler would easily make my top 100). Still I have no problem with him being this "low," as I feel like his offense leaves a lot to be desired. What really stands out with me in this group is Chessman being on the list. Is that based entirely on his match with Villano IV? Did I miss something else of note? 45. Adam Cole 44. Cedric Alexander 43. LuFisto 42. Hechicero 41. Masato Tanaka Obviously I think Hechicero is too low. He's one of the only guys I would seriously consider for the number one slot. I am happy to see Ced show up as I think he's really underrated and is having a sneaky good year. I'm not much of a Cole fan, but I would be interested to hear a more detailed account of why you see him as a top fifty guy. I watched that LuFisto v. Athena match and thought it was okay, is there anything else I should watch? Tanaka is funny because he does a lot of things that would annoy me in the hands of most people, but somehow gets away with it. I'm a mark for the guy, but don't see him as a top fifty guy unless I've missed some quality stuff from Japan (have I?). 40. Mark Henry 39. Rey Escorpion 38. Tomoaki Honma 37. Kevin Steen 36. Emma I like Mark Henry and Emma a lot, but I don't see much meat on their resumes this year. Of course a lot of this depends on how much you've seen, and how much you value you put on one great performance (Emma v Paige) which is an interesting sub-discussion that might be worth having. Escorpion has had a fine year but feels down from last year. I have actually liked Steen more this year than anytime in recent memory. Still the only one of these that I am sure I would have in my top fifty at this point is Honma, who has a couple of marquee performances and is virtually always the best guy in the multi-man/tag matches he's in. 35. Tyson Kidd 34. Shaun Tempers 33. Volador Jr. 32. Mark Briscoe 31. Kazuki Hashimoto What Hashimoto do I need to see? I like him to a degree as a tag guy, though he's never struck me as the best guy in any match. What are his strongest matches of the year. Volador is like La Sombra to me - I don't hate him, but I have no real interest in him as a wrestler and he almost never does anything I think is better than okay. Still I'd like to see what got him his ranking here. Kidd has had a "fun" year," so I won't question it. Glad to see Tempers and Briscoe so high, honestly I'd have both guys higher (I think). Tempers might be the best guy on Earth that no one really watches, though he's such a "simple" wrestler that in saying that I'm laying the foundation for "boy he's overrated" talk. 30. Christian 29. Averno 28. Roman Reigns 27. AJ Styles 26. John Cena If this was going by the Observer calendar I could almost see a case for Averno this high just based off his match with Titan from 12/1. But if this is going off the actual year I don't see it. In fact offhand I can't think of anything Averno has done this year that has stood out at all. What am I missing? Christian and maybe even Reigns could be seen as being high, but I could see the other side of those arguments. I've liked AJ this year and oddly have no problem with that rating. 25. Fuego Guerrero 24. Alberto del Rio 23. Shinsuke Nakamura 22. Jay Briscoe 21. Biff Busick By Fuego Guerrero, I assume you are talking CMLL Fuego? If so I like him more than many lucha fans do, but his claim to fame is basically "guy Virus carried to two very good/great title matches." Del Rio I like, but don't see the argument for him this high this year. No problem at all with the other three, though I THINK I might rate Mark above Jay. 20. 911 19. Sasha Banks 18. Sheamus 17. Charles Lucero 16. Titan What has Banks done this year that is must see? I have never been a huge fan of the Oficiales, so I am not feeling the 911 pick, but I'd watch anything you recommend. Sheamus to me is too low. He's my top WWE guy this year other than maybe Ambrose. I like Titan, but he's had some very favorable opponents this year. I don't think he's a top twenty guy. 15. Tomohiro Ishii 14. Heidi Lovelace 13. TAJIRI 12. Rush 11. Luke Harper 2 names stick out like sore thumbs to me here, Lovelace and Tajiri. Tajiri is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, but the couple of matches of his I've seen this year he did little or note. What match(es) did I miss? Even as a huge mark for him he feels astronomically high here. Lovelace I need recommendations for. I enjoy some women's wrestling, but generally think the best stuff from that scene gets wildly overrated. 10. Dean Ambrose 9. Titus O'Neill 8. Cesaro 7. Sami Zayn 6. Matt Hardy I wouldn't have Titus that high, but love that you have him that high because he busts his ass every time out and he very well COULD be a top ten guy if he got a real push. I continue to be a guy who really likes Zayn, but not at the level of his biggest fans. Hardy is kinda like Titus here - I wouldn't have him that high but I have no problem with it. He's busted his ass ass this year, the feud with the Briscoes has arguably been the feud of the year, and he's been in several matches that I would rate very good-to-great. 5. Goldust 4. Chris Hero 3. Daniel Bryan 2. Negro Casas 1. Timothy Thatcher Goldust and Casas are two of my favorite guys ever, but I don't know about having either guy as a top five guy this year. It's possible I'm forgetting about some really good Dustin stuff from early in the year, and Casas has been great when given chances, but I'd have to get a hard pitch for both. Bryan certainly had some great stuff in the time he was around, but he's fallen behind other guys to me. Same with Hero, though I get that a lot of people have loved his indie run. I have no real problem with Thatcher at number one, though he's be a bit lower for me. Looking at your top fifty these are the names I would absolutely have on mine: Seth Rollins Cedric Alexander Hechicero Tomoaki Honma Shaun Tempers Mark Briscoe Roman Reigns John Cena AJ Styles Shinsuke Nakamura Jay Briscoe Biff Busick Sheamus Charles Lucero Tomohiro Ishii Rush Luke Harper Dean Ambrose Titus O'Neil Cesaro Sami Zayn Matt Hardy Goldust Chris Hero Daniel Bryan Negro Casas Timothy Thatcher I'm on the fence on Akebono, Dolph Ziggler, Titan, Rey Escorpion and maybe even Christian. Without thinking on it too terribly hard the guys I would consider notable omissions would be Virus, Cavernario, Drew Gulak (all three I would consider at least fringe number one contenders), Cachorro, Dragon Lee, KUSHIDA, Jun Akiyama, Blue Panther, Arkangel de la Muerte, Bray Wyatt, Wade Barrett, The Usos, and Vordell Walker (not really "notable" the way the other ones are, but I think he's had a good year, albeit not at the level of his year last year). 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Dylan Waco Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Actually, I saw Matt in a pretty bad match a few weeks ago at an APW show here in Daly City. Really paint by the numbers type stuff except for a couple of spots where he tried to get the crowd to count along and it didn't go well. That, plus the horrible Chris Hero/Jeckels match hadn't really left my mind at that point. That's a shame because he's been quite good in OMEGA, ROH and NEW. As for the comparison with Jeff....no way in hell has Jeff had the better year unless I missed some really amazing Jeff peformances at the beginning of the year in TNA (lol). Jeff HAS looked better this year, and I am looking forward (kinda) to his stuff on the Impact NYC tapings, but he was the fourth best guy in the great OMEGA tag, where you could at least make an argument that his brother was the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Just letting you know Dylan that I'm not ignoring your response, but it may be a day or so before I'm really able to dig in and respond to your post. Also, if I haven't responded by a week just hit me up on Twitter, if you can remember, because I'm working a 126 hour shift coming up so there's a chance I might completely forget about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Good topic. I've made it a point to watch as much 2014 wrestling as possible so this right up my alley. 50. Akebono 49. Seth Rollins 48. Dolph Ziggler 47. Zack Sabre Jr. 46. Chessman This is an interesting grouping of guys. I haven't thought a great deal about how I would rate people so far this year, but the only one of these I'm positive would make my top fifty is Rollins (Akebono and Ziggler would easily make my top 100). Still I have no problem with him being this "low," as I feel like his offense leaves a lot to be desired. What really stands out with me in this group is Chessman being on the list. Is that based entirely on his match with Villano IV? Did I miss something else of note? The Rey de Reyes four way that Chessman was involved in (versus La Parka, Blue Demon Jr. & La Parka Negra) was the best of the four ways this year although admittedly that is probably not saying a ton. He did the spear through the ropes spot (that Big E. does now) which I love regardless of who does it. I thought he has been fun in much of his trios work this year but nothing that really sticks out. I liked the Villano IV match (although not as much as something). Chessman would fall outside of my top 50 but I can see how he could sneak in to the Top 50 particularly if you are looking for a AAA guy to add (though Penatgon Jr. has had a better year I think). Rollins would be much higher for me (top 10). I think he was the key to making the babyface version of The Shield work and has made a smooth transition to singles heel. Akebono was having a very good year before hitting the disabled list and I’d probably have him higher. He is definitely top 50 now although I imagine he’ll fall by the end of the year due to inactivity. Zack Sabre Jr. has been so hit or miss for me in 2014. I really liked the Prince Devitt match from Progress. It was a rare match that felt like a huge deal to its target audience (which I am not really part of) and not only delivered for them but came across in general as a big deal. However, I was disappointed in Sabre's matches versus Tommy End & Big Van Walter from wXw in January considering I like all of those guys. He and Ogawa’s title defense versus Asahi and Toni (K-DOJO) was a very fun junior tag match. #46 feels like an okay spot for him although I might have him a bit out of my top 50. I don’t see the matches for Ziggler this year that make him a top 50 guy. 45. Adam Cole 44. Cedric Alexander 43. LuFisto 42. Hechicero 41. Masato Tanaka Obviously I think Hechicero is too low. He's one of the only guys I would seriously consider for the number one slot. I am happy to see Ced show up as I think he's really underrated and is having a sneaky good year. I'm not much of a Cole fan, but I would be interested to hear a more detailed account of why you see him as a top fifty guy. I watched that LuFisto v. Athena match and thought it was okay, is there anything else I should watch? Tanaka is funny because he does a lot of things that would annoy me in the hands of most people, but somehow gets away with it. I'm a mark for the guy, but don't see him as a top fifty guy unless I've missed some quality stuff from Japan (have I?). Not to speak for Bill, but my case for Adam Cole being a top 50 wrestler thus far centers on the fact that (although not perfect in this regard) he was able to put together a very good ROH title reign while resisting the temptation to go into the "overkill mode" in his matches that plagues so many indie matches. Here’s a guy who has been cast as champion in the promotion that has historically been the “workrate promotion” (don’t like that term but couldn’t think of a better description) and rather than feel the need to go all out for every main event, he has actually toned down his work effectively. He still has some late match issues with doing too much, but the openings and bodies of his matches have generally been well executed. Really liked the Hero Anniversary show match (at least until the ending), the tag against the Briscoes from March (w/ Bennett), and thought the Liger match (at least live) was the best match on the NYC ROH/NJPW show. Agreed that Hechicero is a bit lower here than I would have him, but I am not sure he has done enough in 2014 to consider him as the best worker in the world. There is nothing wrong with a bunch of good lightning matches and some fine performances in multi-man matches but I am not sure that is really #1 or even top 10 resume stuff. That's largely nitpicking though since what he has done has been overall excellent. 40. Mark Henry 39. Rey Escorpion 38. Tomoaki Honma 37. Kevin Steen 36. Emma I like Mark Henry and Emma a lot, but I don't see much meat on their resumes this year. Of course a lot of this depends on how much you've seen, and how much you value you put on one great performance (Emma v Paige) which is an interesting sub-discussion that might be worth having. Escorpion has had a fine year but feels down from last year. I have actually liked Steen more this year than anytime in recent memory. Still the only one of these that I am sure I would have in my top fifty at this point is Honma, who has a couple of marquee performances and is virtually always the best guy in the multi-man/tag matches he's in. I agree with Dylan on Henry. He just hasn’t done much at all this year. Escorpion versus Atlantis from Puebla last month was one of favorite non-Virus singles matches from CMLL this year. It isn’t great, but it is a very even match (in terms of both guys contributing) and the first fall has a lot of great mat work. Steen would be outside my top 50. I get why people like him and the more I hear him talk about wrestling, the more I want to like him but his matches are still too much for me. Homna has had a strong year. 35. Tyson Kidd 34. Shaun Tempers 33. Volador Jr. 32. Mark Briscoe 31. Kazuki Hashimoto What Hashimoto do I need to see? I like him to a degree as a tag guy, though he's never struck me as the best guy in any match. What are his strongest matches of the year. Volador is like La Sombra to me - I don't hate him, but I have no real interest in him as a wrestler and he almost never does anything I think is better than okay. Still I'd like to see what got him his ranking here. Kidd has had a "fun" year," so I won't question it. Glad to see Tempers and Briscoe so high, honestly I'd have both guys higher (I think). Tempers might be the best guy on Earth that no one really watches, though he's such a "simple" wrestler that in saying that I'm laying the foundation for "boy he's overrated" talk. Hashimoto does nothing for me. His tag team with Daichi is okay but they aren’t a team I seek out. I thought he was completely unmemorable in his wXw matches from January. Volador would probably be in my top 50. When he wants to be, he is still one of the more spectacular spot-for-spot high flyers in the world. His matches against Mascara Dorada (January in NJPW) and La Sombra (from June) are examples of that. His singles matches versus Averno and Casas from January were also worth watching. I wish Tyson Kidd had more exposure because he has been great in NXT lately although probably not enough of a resume to be a “top 50 guy”. 30. Christian 29. Averno 28. Roman Reigns 27. AJ Styles 26. John Cena If this was going by the Observer calendar I could almost see a case for Averno this high just based off his match with Titan from 12/1. But if this is going off the actual year I don't see it. In fact offhand I can't think of anything Averno has done this year that has stood out at all. What am I missing? Christian and maybe even Reigns could be seen as being high, but I could see the other side of those arguments. I've liked AJ this year and oddly have no problem with that rating. Agree with Styles and Cena being included (though both would probably be a bitter higher for me). I don’t think I would include the other guys on there on my list. Christian hasn’t done much at all this year. Averno works well with Mistico but he didn’t do a lot in CMLL this year before making the jump (really just the previously mentioned “okay” match versus Volador) and has largely been in trios in AAA. 25. Fuego Guerrero 24. Alberto del Rio 23. Shinsuke Nakamura 22. Jay Briscoe 21. Biff Busick By Fuego Guerrero, I assume you are talking CMLL Fuego? If so I like him more than many lucha fans do, but his claim to fame is basically "guy Virus carried to two very good/great title matches." Del Rio I like, but don't see the argument for him this high this year. No problem at all with the other three, though I THINK I might rate Mark above Jay. Fuego is a bunch of fun (love watching the Japanese fans get into his ring entrance) and the Virus title match from this year is one of my favorite matches of the year, but I agree with Dylan that I have trouble seeing his case for being the 25th best wrestler in the world this year. Nakamura I would have higher. I think he has been the most consistent of the top NJPW guys this year even though he hasn’t always had a ton to work with. Jay Briscoe is in the ballpark, but agreed that Mark has looked slightly better in both singles and tags than Jay this year. Biff Busick does very little for me. I don’t even think he really fits in the same group (stylistically) as Gulak & Thatcher and I am not overly high on those guys either. Busick comes off as a wrestler who has some tools but is still trying to figure out what he wants to be and how to get there. 20. 911 19. Sasha Banks 18. Sheamus 17. Charles Lucero 16. Titan What has Banks done this year that is must see? I have never been a huge fan of the Oficiales, so I am not feeling the 911 pick, but I'd watch anything you recommend. Sheamus to me is too low. He's my top WWE guy this year other than maybe Ambrose. I like Titan, but he's had some very favorable opponents this year. I don't think he's a top twenty guy. 911 had an interesting match against Golden Magic back in February, but that was more due to Golden Magic emptying his bag of high flying moves than anything 911 did. I don’t see it with Sheamus. What skills does he poses that are true “plus” skills? His best aspect to me is his brawling, but even then I don’t see him as one of the better brawlers today and certainly not when judged on a historical basis. What are the great matches from him in 2014? Titan I’d have a tad lower (but in my Top 50) but I can see the case given that he had one very good singles match (Virus), a good singles versus Casas, and a lot of solid trios work. Looking forward to his title match against Cavernario. Lucero is a bit higher than I’d have him. I did like both Silver Star matches. 15. Tomohiro Ishii 14. Heidi Lovelace 13. TAJIRI 12. Rush 11. Luke Harper 2 names stick out like sore thumbs to me here, Lovelace and Tajiri. Tajiri is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, but the couple of matches of his I've seen this year he did little or note. What match(es) did I miss? Even as a huge mark for him he feels astronomically high here. Lovelace I need recommendations for. I enjoy some women's wrestling, but generally think the best stuff from that scene gets wildly overrated. Ishii feels about right. I am still not a big fan of his style in general, but I think his matches this year have gotten progressively better as the year as gone on. I’d have Rush in the top 10 on my list probably but wouldn’t argue with where Bill has him ranked. Harper is the opposite in that #11 is a fair ranking, but he would be outside my personal top 20 or so (probably). Agreed with Dylan that the Tajiri I’ve seen this year has been fine, but nothing noteworthy. 10. Dean Ambrose 9. Titus O'Neill 8. Cesaro 7. Sami Zayn 6. Matt Hardy I wouldn't have Titus that high, but love that you have him that high because he busts his ass every time out and he very well COULD be a top ten guy if he got a real push. I continue to be a guy who really likes Zayn, but not at the level of his biggest fans. Hardy is kinda like Titus here - I wouldn't have him that high but I have no problem with it. He's busted his ass ass this year, the feud with the Briscoes has arguably been the feud of the year, and he's been in several matches that I would rate very good-to-great. All of these wrestlers except Cesaro feel a bit high to me. Hardy has had a very good year but when I think “top ten” I am thinking about guys that either have a huge volume of quality work and/or some really elite matches. I don’t think Hardy has either. 5. Goldust 4. Chris Hero 3. Daniel Bryan 2. Negro Casas 1. Timothy Thatcher Goldust and Casas are two of my favorite guys ever, but I don't know about having either guy as a top five guy this year. It's possible I'm forgetting about some really good Dustin stuff from early in the year, and Casas has been great when given chances, but I'd have to get a hard pitch for both. Bryan certainly had some great stuff in the time he was around, but he's fallen behind other guys to me. Same with Hero, though I get that a lot of people have loved his indie run. I have no real problem with Thatcher at number one, though he's be a bit lower for me. Casas and Bryan are in a similar boat in some respects given that they both had great starts to the year, but have not done as much since. Casas had a tremendous January. He had above average singles matches versus Titan and Volador, good matches versus Atlantis and Blue Panther, and a lot of good trios work (particularly when teaming with Puma & Tiger). Since then he hasn’t done a ton but he and Virus were the best two guys in the disappointing En Busca cibernetico, plus the En Busca trios match and a solid tag title win versus Rush & La Mascara (w/ Shocker). I’d have him in my top 5 with a chance to move up if this hair match comes close on my (admittedly high) expectations. Bryan has my top 2 US singles match of the year so far (Wyatt at the Rumble and Triple H at Mania) which is good enough to consider him top 5 for now, although he will obviously fall due to inactivity. My recollection is Dustin had some good tags in January but nothing blow away to carry him through the rest of the 1st half. Thatcher – like Busick – I think is okay but far away from elite. He has a strong grasp of opening mat work and exchanging holds (two elements that I really like in any match), but it doesn’t progress well from there all the time. When he is out of his element – even something basic like strike exchanges – I think he tends to look lost. He does what he does well, but I am not sure he does anything “great”. I am almost not sure what he does well is enough. I’d like to hear from Dylan and/or Bill on what has made Thatcher’s 2014 reach “elite” (top 5 status)? Maybe I am missing something? Wrestlers not on Bill’s list that I would likely have in my top 50 (and some of them pretty high up): Okada, KUSHIDA, Ricochet, Cavernario, Bray Wyatt, Mascara Dorada, Tanahashi, Pentagon Jr., Tommy End, CIMA, Super Shisa, Dean Allmark, Drew Gulak, Rampage Brown, Naito and Akiyama. Guys that would be close include Dragon Lee, Omori, T-Hawk, and Davey Boy Smith Jr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Where is Virus? Why is Casas so high? How come Cavernario isn't on the list instead of Hechicero? I like the Lucero pick. He's the second best guy in Mexico behind Virus right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Talking about Sasha Banks, I like her feud with Bayley and friends. Especially the matches with Nattie, Emma, Becky Lynch and even Alexa Bliss. She's the best diva in developmental now that Emma and Paige are gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 Hechicero is the one WAY out side where I'd put him. Have him easy Top 5 but prolly #1. Tajiri that high is not something I quite "get" but I'd like to hear the reason. His two matches in 2CW were him throwing some killer kicks followed by mist. Nothing overly fantastic. Hard for me to get Daniel Bryan that high either despite me liking most of his performances before the injury. Thatcher being #1 makes the omission of Gulak that much more surprising. In general though it is a diverse list which will always be something I like seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted July 16, 2014 Report Share Posted July 16, 2014 I didn't see the Omega tag. It seems like both Hardys might actually be clean this year which would maybe account for the improvement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanyonkutter Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Cool list and topic. Always enjoy finding others who are watching as much 2014 wrestling as I am. I've watched nearly everything thru May (WWE, indies, puroresu) and would love to know what good Titus O'Neill, TAJIRI, Sasha Banks, Alberto del Rio, or Mark Henry matches I skipped over because I couldn't imagine ranking any of them near the top 50 this year. I have only seen Thatcher in CZW, FIP and EVOLVE this year and while I did enjoy what I saw there was nothing blow away and certainly didn't make me think he was having a better year than Busick or Gulak. What else should I look for that he did this year? Where is Naito? Ricochet? Bray Wyatt? They would be in my top 20 so far this year. Some names not mentioned that would be in my top 50 for sure: Kohei Sato Johnny Gargano Shuji Ishikawa JT Dunn Daisuke Harada Caleb Konley Atsushi Kotoge Shigehiro Irie ACH Shinya Ishikawa Kyle O'Reilly Akira Tozawa Danny Cannon Hirooki Goto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Not going to c/p or reply with quotes to everything stomper wrote above, so instead I'll reply to specific things he noted. Re: Sheamus - For my money he's the most complete wrestler in the promotion by far. Ambrose is more over, and I would listen to an argument that he's better, but the Steve Austin tribute "press into punches that don't connect and look horrible" is something that annoys me on some level, even if it fits his character. Sheamus on the other works really snug in everything he does. He's the most underrated bumper in the company, to the point where I'd argue he's the best guy in the company at delivering with a big bump or two every match and getting it over as a meaningful transition that adds to the match. He has some of the best offense in wrestling, with multiple potential finishers - something I'm a huge mark for - a nice mix of snug strikes, power offense and even dives/moves off the ropes. He is very good at structuring his matches around natural heat segments. His finisher is protected really well, and he does a better job in mixing up his finish and signature spots than anyone else in the company. His selling is very good, with his body part selling being better than most anyone around at this point. The one real argument against him this year is that he doesn't have the homerun match, but he's not been positioned to have it. Even without it his best matches v. Titus and Ambrose were some of my favorite t.v. matches of the year, he's been the best guy in several multi-man matches, I really liked his series v. Christian, Barrett and Cesaro, and he always makes the best of the situations he's in. Re: Titan - I think he's probably the best guy of the modern CMLL guys who work that style (La Sombra, Volador Jr., Dorada, et.), but it's not a style I'm in love with, and as I mentioned before I think he's been one of the most well protected guys in wrestling over the last two years in terms of who he's been booked with. That is not his fault, and I still rate the guy. Hell I think the 12/1 match with Averno and Virus match from this year were both brilliant. But I actually thought the Casas match was somewhat disappointing, and I am still waiting for him to have that one match, or even lengthy exchange in a trios, where he completely knocks me on my ass. Re: Hechicero - I completely understand the argument that a number one case can be tough to build on sub-ten minute matches, and in most years I would be much more guarded about heaping praise on a guy with that as his biggest plus, but this is a weird year where I think there is exactly one guy who has put on a resume of "big time" matches with consistency, and at the end of the day he's the fifth or sixth biggest star in New Japan (Ishii). On top of that I think it's easy to sell Hechicero's year short if you look at it based solely on time logged. I thought him and Cavernario were the best of the guys working with the second tier guys in the En Busca tourney and getting compelling matches out of them, which was not easy. There matches against each other - including the final which I thought was a brilliant performance by Hechicero, perhaps even the best individual performance I've seen out of anyone this year - were rock solid and as good/exciting as you'd want. Hechicero was really good in both of the cibernetico's book ending the tourney (though not the best guy in either), and was sharp in the great trios match held in the middle of it (which is my lucha MOTY, though again he wasn't the best guy in it). He's also shown himself to have the Virus like ability of being a guy who can make trios match with middling-to-weak talent pretty good almost entirely on his own. I'm not completely sold that I'd even rate him above Cavernario at this point, though Hechicero's audible saved the day in their final match, but I also don't see how he could be disqualified as a number one contender considering what the current landscape looks like. Of course we value different things, but I would be interested to see who stomper would rate in the absolute top tier for the year and maybe talk about what he looks for in a number one level guy. Re: Thatcher - There we just completely and totally disagree. To me Thatcher, Gulak and Busick (though I agree Busick is at least somewhat different stylistically and more obviously flawed) are just about the only guys on the indies that combine good wrestling and fresh spots with real build. I'm not saying they aren't flawed, and I think Gulak can look "lost" for fleeting moments (less so Thatcher in my view), but they are not only doing something different, but something that I feel is more logical and interesting than anything else on the indies. The differences in styles make it a clunky comparison, but when I look at a match like Adam Cole v. Kevin Steen, v. something like Thatcher v. Gulak from Mania weekend, I can see how the rounds system would be a turn off and can even see how there may have been moments early that felt a bit disjointed, but to me it was transparently obvious that the match build and built and built, whereas the Cole v. Steen match had really good build by modern ROH standards, wasted on a horrificly stupid finish that negated everything they'd done up to that point. Perhaps my favorite trait about Thatcher is that he's gone from the guy who worked Finlay and in a fun match that felt REALLY long, to a guy who's matches now get progressively more and more exciting and have a true feeling of escalation that most independent wrestling completely skips over in lieu of hightspots, near fall collecting, and pandering for chants. I will say that he's not my number one, and I want to see him work more this year before I rate him at that level, but I've enjoyed every match of his I've seen, and the cool grappling spots is really just a piece of that. Side notes....On Hardy I think he was outstanding in the Omega tag with Jeff v. The Briscoes, so that would be his "elite" match. On AAA guys, I prefer Villano IV (liked the brawl with Chessman and LOVED the Blue Demon brawl way more than most), Aerostar, Australian Suicide, Machine Rocker, Pentagon Jr. and Steve Pain at minimum to Chessman. People talk up Pentagon Jr., and I've grown to really like him with my binge AAA watching in recent weeks, but to me the real breakout guy this year has been Australian Suicide who is one of the most dynamic "spot" wrestlers around and seems to get better every week. He's not as complete a wrestler as Aerostar yet, and maybe not as good as Pentagon Jr., but he's someone that really jumps out at me every time I watch him. Not sure any of those guys would make my top fifty at this point....I'm behind on the Brit scene, but I did enjoy Dean Allmark busting his ass to carry that scrub on the big Wrestle-1 show. Still he's a guy who's a bit overexposed with me as his formula match is less compelling to me after seeing it forty times. Re: kanyonkutter I could see rating Ishikwa/Sato as a team, but not as individuals. Which I admit is a weird take, but as singles I have zero interest in them. As a tag they are violent as fuck, psychos, that eat smaller guys alive, but give enough to have good matches. Naito is weird to me because he has moments where I think he is really great, but his selling is just terrible. The guy only knows two speeds - getting his ass kicked or running through his shit. Ishii was able to temper that some (as was Tanaka to a lesser degree last year), but when left to his own devices he reverts right back to form. I really want to like the guy but I'm just not there with him yet. I want some NOAH recommendations (just starting to delve in some recently, though I did watch a few of the early in the year shows months back), but I've been warned that I Harada is not my type of guy. I've grown to really like Konley as he's grown into being a solid heel, but I never want to see Gargano wrestle again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Some indie workers can be much more tolerable given a particular environment. Seems as if Konley fits in that mold cause every time I've seen Konley before I've never felt compelled to see anything more from him. Gargano doesn't change but at the same time I can enjoy some of his stuff. Also as far as watching AAA what is the best way to go about it since they don't seem to have a ton of STAND OUT stuff? PS:Hopefully this kinda list leads to more lists that contribute to a more cumulative list(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I don't really get how to break up quotes on this forum, so I'm going to start by replying to Dylan in chunks. 50. Akebono 49. Seth Rollins 48. Dolph Ziggler 47. Zack Sabre Jr. 46. Chessman This is an interesting grouping of guys. I haven't thought a great deal about how I would rate people so far this year, but the only one of these I'm positive would make my top fifty is Rollins (Akebono and Ziggler would easily make my top 100). Still I have no problem with him being this "low," as I feel like his offense leaves a lot to be desired. What really stands out with me in this group is Chessman being on the list. Is that based entirely on his match with Villano IV? Did I miss something else of note? Chessman - There is the Villano match, but I also liked him a lot in the Rey de Reyes semifinal match, and I loved what he did specifically in a six man I saw from 02-22 with him, Daga and Pentagon Jr. versus Australian Suicide, Jack Evans and Angelico. Chessman will start a trend of a wrestler I talk about having maybe one, or none, elite/great matches, but doing a lot of work in matches that aren't elite where I still thought the wrestler was putting in an elite performance. Rollins - He's someone I struggle with. I haven't liked anything about him since the turn, and even before that I felt he was by far the worst of the Shield. My issue is with how contrived a lot of his offense seems and how I feel he still hasn't quite mastered when and where to bust out his high spots. 45. Adam Cole 44. Cedric Alexander 43. LuFisto 42. Hechicero 41. Masato Tanaka Obviously I think Hechicero is too low. He's one of the only guys I would seriously consider for the number one slot. I am happy to see Ced show up as I think he's really underrated and is having a sneaky good year. I'm not much of a Cole fan, but I would be interested to hear a more detailed account of why you see him as a top fifty guy. I watched that LuFisto v. Athena match and thought it was okay, is there anything else I should watch? Tanaka is funny because he does a lot of things that would annoy me in the hands of most people, but somehow gets away with it. I'm a mark for the guy, but don't see him as a top fifty guy unless I've missed some quality stuff from Japan (have I?). Hechicero - This is simply because I haven't seen anything from him since, I believe, March. I love what he does, but my YouTube Watch Later pile is full of matches from him I have yet to get to. Cole - He's a guy who I think presents just as solid of a persona as he does wrestling skill. He has skills I like, and the work I've seen him do in RoH this year has been really great. Even in matches that suffered from RoH storytelling the way he carried himself and presented his character impressed the hell out of me. LuFisto - I really enjoyed that Athena match, when I give it another watch I wouldn't be surprised if it moved up into elite status. Her work in a tag match from CZW's Prelude to Violence was really nifty, and she had another match with Athena this year that I loved. I also really liked her work against Sweet Cherrie from a 02-22 match for what I believe was a GEW show. Tanaka - I don't think you've really missed anything. He hasn't been in any matches I thought were great, but he's probably been the most consistent wrestler I've seen so far this year. I've seen him in a handful of tag matches from Japan, and in every one he brings the same crispness and level of intensity, and I felt for maintaining such a high level regardless of opponent, promotion, or event he belonged in my top 50. 40. Mark Henry 39. Rey Escorpion 38. Tomoaki Honma 37. Kevin Steen 36. Emma I like Mark Henry and Emma a lot, but I don't see much meat on their resumes this year. Of course a lot of this depends on how much you've seen, and how much you value you put on one great performance (Emma v Paige) which is an interesting sub-discussion that might be worth having. Escorpion has had a fine year but feels down from last year. I have actually liked Steen more this year than anytime in recent memory. Still the only one of these that I am sure I would have in my top fifty at this point is Honma, who has a couple of marquee performances and is virtually always the best guy in the multi-man/tag matches he's in. Henry- He's on here mainly thanks to him being really good in every match I've seen and having what I think is a borderline great match on Main Event with Dean Ambrose. I love Ambrose, but that match is a prime example of how great Henry has gotten as a wrestler. He hasn't had anything else that's come close to that match, but regardless his selling this year has really sold me on the guy as a top 50 talent. Emma - Her match with Paige from Arrival is the best WWE women's match of the year, a really good match period, and she's another example of someone who presents her persona in a manner I find interesting to watch. She's in on the strength of her NXT work mainly, but whether in a singles match or in tag matches I think she's been great in everything she's done this year in NXT. 35. Tyson Kidd 34. Shaun Tempers 33. Volador Jr. 32. Mark Briscoe 31. Kazuki Hashimoto What Hashimoto do I need to see? I like him to a degree as a tag guy, though he's never struck me as the best guy in any match. What are his strongest matches of the year. Volador is like La Sombra to me - I don't hate him, but I have no real interest in him as a wrestler and he almost never does anything I think is better than okay. Still I'd like to see what got him his ranking here. Kidd has had a "fun" year," so I won't question it. Glad to see Tempers and Briscoe so high, honestly I'd have both guys higher (I think). Tempers might be the best guy on Earth that no one really watches, though he's such a "simple" wrestler that in saying that I'm laying the foundation for "boy he's overrated" talk. Hashimoto - His single versus Kanemoto from earlier in the year is a great grumpy old guy and petulant young guy beating the crap out of each other match. I've also liked a number of his Hashimoto/Hashimoto tags, and his single against Sato from 02-26 is a great showcase for how fun his penchant to beat the shit out of people can be. Volador - The La Sombra match from 04-05, their rematch from 06-06, his 01-19 match versus Averno (which I consider great), and a handful of six man tags where his work especially impressed me is what got him this spot. 30. Christian 29. Averno 28. Roman Reigns 27. AJ Styles 26. John Cena If this was going by the Observer calendar I could almost see a case for Averno this high just based off his match with Titan from 12/1. But if this is going off the actual year I don't see it. In fact offhand I can't think of anything Averno has done this year that has stood out at all. What am I missing? Christian and maybe even Reigns could be seen as being high, but I could see the other side of those arguments. I've liked AJ this year and oddly have no problem with that rating. Averno - The aforementioned Volador Jr. match is a MOTYC for me. and he had a handful of six man tags from CMLL where I thought he was impressive. However he probably got this high because of his AAA work, where the matches haven't been that good but he has shined. I know people will say it's not that hard to look great when you're facing Psycho Clown, but gosh darn did Averno look great trying to get good stuff out of the likes of Psycho Clown. 25. Fuego Guerrero 24. Alberto del Rio 23. Shinsuke Nakamura 22. Jay Briscoe 21. Biff Busick By Fuego Guerrero, I assume you are talking CMLL Fuego? If so I like him more than many lucha fans do, but his claim to fame is basically "guy Virus carried to two very good/great title matches." Del Rio I like, but don't see the argument for him this high this year. No problem at all with the other three, though I THINK I might rate Mark above Jay. Fuego - Yep, the CMLL Fuego. Where you see a guy being carried I saw Fuego more than holding his own and having really fun matches with Virus where he managed to put his own mark on the match. Although I will grant you that I totally forgot about Virus, he's easily should have been a top 20 guy, maybe even a top 10. ADR - When he's been on Superstars or Main Event I think ADR has been a highlight of the show. He's had a lot of crap to work with this year but I felt he always made the best of said crap. I recall watching him versus Batista and thinking, "Man, Batista really doesn't give a damn, and ADR has no reason to care but he's really trying and actually getting some neat stuff out of Batista in the process." Same thing goes for any time ADR has been involved in a multi man match. The matches themselves were never anything special, but his work in this matches has been, especially the way he can pull off so many kicks and I never get tired of them. What you say about Sheamus later on is an apt description of what I think about ADR. 20. 911 19. Sasha Banks 18. Sheamus 17. Charles Lucero 16. Titan What has Banks done this year that is must see? I have never been a huge fan of the Oficiales, so I am not feeling the 911 pick, but I'd watch anything you recommend. Sheamus to me is too low. He's my top WWE guy this year other than maybe Ambrose. I like Titan, but he's had some very favorable opponents this year. I don't think he's a top twenty guy. Banks - Track down anything she's done in NXT. She's always a highlight of any match she's in. She's another one who hasn't been in anything I would consider great, but she's had a lot of good matches, including a very good one against Bailey from the title tournament. I think Banks is the woman in the WWE with the most potential. She's progressively getting better at all aspects of wrestling, from her in-ring work to the way she presents her character. Not being fake is a big thing for me, and I believe that Sasha thinks she is a BOSS, and she carries herself like one, win or lose. 911 - Definitely check out his match versus Golden Magic from IWRG earlier in the year. H'e been really good in a handful of tags I've seen, but in the Magic match he really puts on a fabulous dickish rudo performance while at the same time being a top flight base for all of Magic's flying. Sheamus - I'm not sure why, but I always feel something is missing from his work in the ring. He can go, and he's as high as he is because I respect the quality work he puts in. However, I always feel like there's something missing from every one of his matches, and I can't put my finger on what but that's why he's not higher. Titan - I think he's a great flyer, and while he has been helped by favorable opponents he's been in top MOTYC's and been great in both of those matches. 15. Tomohiro Ishii 14. Heidi Lovelace 13. TAJIRI 12. Rush 11. Luke Harper 2 names stick out like sore thumbs to me here, Lovelace and Tajiri. Tajiri is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, but the couple of matches of his I've seen this year he did little or note. What match(es) did I miss? Even as a huge mark for him he feels astronomically high here. Lovelace I need recommendations for. I enjoy some women's wrestling, but generally think the best stuff from that scene gets wildly overrated. Tajiri - I'll fully admit this is a lot of my bias coming through. I haven't seen any Tajiri for years now, and when I started watching some of his 2014 stuff I fell in love with him all over again. This may not be a strong year for him, but watching him do his thing has been a joy, kind of like discovering something awesome all over again. Lovelace - She's her because of her bumping. People may scoff but I think she's the bets bumper in the world right now. She makes me believe that she's near death in every match in every move that's supposed to be a death move. She also has a fabulous persona, and she's really good at other facets of in-ring besides just bumping. I'd highly recommend any of her inter-gender stuff from this year to see why I think so highly of her bumping. On the first page of a YouTube search for "Heidi Lovelace 2014" there are also a few sub-5 minute matches that show how she can get her stuff in during a short amount of time and still make her opponent look good. She also has a couple of longer matches in that search versus Sparx and Sixx that I think are very good. 10. Dean Ambrose 9. Titus O'Neill 8. Cesaro 7. Sami Zayn 6. Matt Hardy I wouldn't have Titus that high, but love that you have him that high because he busts his ass every time out and he very well COULD be a top ten guy if he got a real push. I continue to be a guy who really likes Zayn, but not at the level of his biggest fans. Hardy is kinda like Titus here - I wouldn't have him that high but I have no problem with it. He's busted his ass ass this year, the feud with the Briscoes has arguably been the feud of the year, and he's been in several matches that I would rate very good-to-great. Titus - You're actually the guy who turned me on to him, and I've come to really like the work he puts in. Superstars has kind of become his playground and I always look forward to his matches because I know he's going to try his darndest, and that if he would just get a push he could be seen by everyone for thegreat worker he's become. Hardy - He's always been a personal favorite, but I do think he's been top 10 this year. The OMEGA tag versus the Briscoes is great, and I think he's the bets performer in that match. He's also been super great at being a heel in RoH, and I love that so many RoH fans struggle with the heel character he's presenting and don't realize that they hate him for all the reasons that character wants them to hate him. Basically, I've seen close to ten Hardy matches this year and he's always been the best aspect of every match. 5. Goldust 4. Chris Hero 3. Daniel Bryan 2. Negro Casas 1. Timothy Thatcher Goldust and Casas are two of my favorite guys ever, but I don't know about having either guy as a top five guy this year. It's possible I'm forgetting about some really good Dustin stuff from early in the year, and Casas has been great when given chances, but I'd have to get a hard pitch for both. Bryan certainly had some great stuff in the time he was around, but he's fallen behind other guys to me. Same with Hero, though I get that a lot of people have loved his indie run. I have no real problem with Thatcher at number one, though he's be a bit lower for me. Casas/Bryan - These two can be presented together because they are so high based on the first months of the year. Both of them will probably fall by the end of the year (Bryan definitely, Casas probably unless he picks up his game) but I really love what both men did up until around the end of March. Goldust - The Main Event tag match he was in with Cody versus the Real Americans is a MOTYC. That's his lone great match though, but as a performer I think he's taken his game to a whole nother level this year. He's the best hot tag in the business, he's a forty something dude who flies around the ring like a 20 year old, and his timing is insane. Truth be told more than anything his sense of timing is why he's so high. The way he places his comebacks, moves, tags, and so forth within his matches are the very best of wrestling to me. Thatcher - You and I have talked about him before, but everything he does is the awesome sauce for me. He's turned wrestling back into what I like most, a struggle for control. Everything he does is done so easily and effortlessly, but he manages to make it look like it takes supreme effort and is the most difficult thing in the world. He's pretty much the king of the less is more approach, and when you add him being in my current MOTY into the mix you get him as the best wrestler in the world. Without thinking on it too terribly hard the guys I would consider notable omissions would be Virus, Cavernario, Drew Gulak (all three I would consider at least fringe number one contenders), Cachorro, Dragon Lee, KUSHIDA, Jun Akiyama, Blue Panther, Arkangel de la Muerte, Bray Wyatt, Wade Barrett, The Usos, and Vordell Walker (not really "notable" the way the other ones are, but I think he's had a good year, albeit not at the level of his year last year). Virus is a shameful omission. I still have yet to see any Gulak, and I've seen very little Cavernario. Actually, same goes for most guys on your list. Th exceptions would be The Usos who I'm not super high on. They are good wrestlers, but they have a manufactured tint to their matches that annoys me, like an awkwardness that I can't get past. I am high on Wyatt, he just missed my list. Barrett almost made the list too, but he didn't do enough before the injury to make it. That's all I have for now, will respond to others in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 You described exactly how I feel about the Usos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Mikey Whipwreck could totally make my Top 100. That's kinda out of the blue but still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Watching the fans during LuFisto-Athena was fantastic fun. Sparse enough attendance so you can see each and everyone lose their shit at various times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I must be the only one who thinks Hechicero hasn't looked that sharp in CMLL. His work right now reminds me of when the Radicals first jumper to the WWF and struggled to adapt. I don't know why they've got him playing rudo when he was a technico for so many years. It's like he's learning on the fly how to lay out a match as a rudo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 OJ, what on Earth does Hechicero struggle with as a rudo? He's about the only rudo in Mexico this year who I would rate strongly when it comes to heeling, controlling a match from the top, getting the most of limited opponents, et. By contrast you are talking about Charles Lucero as the second best guy in Mexico, and while I love the old dude, that second Silver Star title match had some of the lightest/most poorly applied matwork I've seen in a lucha title match/maestros match starring a supposedly excellent worker since I started watching lucha weekly. Why does Lucero get a pass for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Lucero's timing is off at times and as I've mentioned before I think his tope is weak, but against Silver Star he was working the classic lucha title match style -- which was never the tightest matwork to begin with, not that I thought the matwork was that poorly applied -- so, it's an appreciation of the form and the style. Lucero can work fast paced lucha exchanges with young guys (better than Hechicero has shown he can in CMLL), it's just that Silver Star is slower than he used to be and can't bump like the young guys do. I like Hechicero as a worker. He was great in Monterrey. But I don't know when he's shown those qualities you're talking about in CMLL. Every match he had in the En Busca de un Idolo tournament was flawed in some way and he was off the pace in that trios that everyone loves. I thought Cavernario was considerably better in the tournament and in the trios. In fact, aside from heeling, I would say Cavernario fits the description you gave for Hechicero. That match against Cachorro was a good example. Really basic layout, but it kept the work focused and allowed Cachorro to shine. Hechicero gave technicos like Dragon Lee way too much offence and the matches became messy spot fests. Just because he tossed a guy around by the hair or something isn't enough to persuade me that he's really controlling things from the top. He'd do things like that in the opening few exchanges then try to work a three caida match in seven minutes instead of a simple one fall bout like a lightning match should be. He hasn't had a proper three fall singles match yet (to my knowledge) and it's hard to be a gold standard rudo in modern CMLL, so I'm not trying to hold him to impossible standards, I just think he could do a better job of laying out his matches, working at a rudo pace, having better rudo cut-off spots and carrying himself in the ring better w/ rudo mannerisms and a rudo attitude. Being a masked rudo isn't as easy as an unmasked one, but I'm not sure he's as good as rudo Panther, and Blue Panther wasn't exactly a great rudo. I can't understand why they didn't bring him in as a technico. His biggest strength is his killer offence, which you don't want a rudo to have too much of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Yea, I agree with Dylan about Hechicero as a rudo in CMLL. Especially early on his CMLL run (before En Busca) I thought he really stood out in trios in terms of having this strong presence as a rudo. He jawed with the crowd, cheated, toyed around a bit with his opponents, ect. I do think there were times during the tournament where he sort of downplayed the rudo act in favor of wrestling straight up, but I never through the matches suffered from a structural standpoint as a result. Of course we value different things, but I would be interested to see who stomper would rate in the absolute top tier for the year and maybe talk about what he looks for in a number one level guy. Well, for starters I am not sure that I look for anything all that particular or really even delineate to that level. In discussing which wrestlers have had the best year (or six months in this case), I think about the wrestlers who have had the most matches (in total and percentage wise) that I have really enjoyed. Not that is necessarily relevant to any of the guys we are currently discussing, but I likely would not consider someone a top tier wrestler for the year if he had only one or two great matches surrounded by a lot of mediocrity (or worse). Likewise, a wrestler with only a few available matches on the year (even if they are all generally good) would not be likely to stick out to me as a top tier wrestler. In terms of stylistic preferences, in general I tend to prefer matches that lay some sort of foundation at the beginning through mat work, holds, or feel-out spots. That can be anything from five minutes of mat work with little to no separation between the wrestlers to a few minutes of holds, arm drags, headlocks, ect. that set a ton before moving onto the body of the match. I like matches (and therefore wrestlers that do this) that build in a very structured, step by step manner. I place a big emphasis (maybe too big) on the action escalating and building in a very linear and logical way. Wrestlers that don't know when to end a match irritate me a lot. It is frustrating watching a match that builds well (or at least okay), hits a relative high point, and then goes on for five more minutes completely killing the flow that the match had going. Overkill at the end of matches is my biggest pet peeve. While I wouldn't consider myself a "moves guy" at all, a wrestler or a match is a lot more likely to stick out for me if there is something moves wise (be it a cool submission, an exciting sequence, a real executed spot, or whatever) that stands out. I'm probably missing stuff but that's in general what makes a wrestler/match stick out to me as something good. Like I think I have conveyed, there is not l one thing or even a few things I look for. Here are four guys that have had a strong enough half-year for me that I could see them being amongst my favorite come year-end (assuming they keep the same pace or pick it up). I don't think any one of these guys sticks out to me for the exact same reasons: Virus - I don't think I have seen a bad Virus performance this year in either lightning matches, three fall singles matches, or trios. His smoothness in the ring, excellent mat work, and ability to rarely (if ever) fall into any sort of discernible pattern make him stand out. He has had two of my favorite singles matches of the year, carrying lesser workers due to those previously listed qualities. He has both quantity and quality on his match resume. Daniel Bryan - Bryan will likely fall due to inactivity, but even more so than Virus he is a wrestler I am rarely disappointed with. He has my two favorite US matches of the year (versus Triple at Mania and versus Bray Wyatt at the Rumble). Great selling and bumping, perfect timing on comebacks, great underdog baby face offense, and the ability to structure matches around his opponents limitations are all strong qualities of Bryan's in 2014. Shinsuke Nakamura - Nakamura hasn't had the highs in 2014 of Bryan (or Virus) but he has been incredibly consistent. I am not a huge Tanahashi fan (although I think he tends to get underrated as much as he gets overrated) but I thought his three match series with Nakamura was overall enjoyable in large part to what Nakamura brought to those matches. I thought there 4/6 match was pretty close to reaching that "match of the year candidate" level. His Fale matches were totally different because they had to be and both worked well. I haven't always thought this about him, but he has been rather adaptive in 2014 with good matches against guys of all different styles like Tanahashi, Fale, Rush, Davey Boy Smith Jr., ect. Again, he's just another guy whose matches I have looked forward to the entire six months because they rarely disappoint. Not the great fundamental wrestler that Virus and Bryan are, but in 2014 he has done a great job in (far more often than not) having good matches versus different types of opponents. Negro Casas - Casas has lost a step or two but he is so much fun to watch in the ring. He can do truly entertaining comedy when needed (I'll never tire of watching him gleefully skip in the ring) but at the same time can work a totally convincing and hate-filled brawl with someone like Rush when necessary. Like Nakamura, precision and crispness aren't exactly positive attributes of his in 2014 (though those things are not detriments either) but overall he has done a very good job working a variety of roles with a variety of opponents and almost always being entertaining. He has several singles matches I really enjoyed and while I haven't seen all of his 2014 trios work, he has rarely looked less than "good" in what I have seen. He has a 2014 resume built off of "good" quantity. So there you go. Not sure if that helps. FWIW, I would rate Hechicero pretty highly (in general, I am not a big list guy). Also to be fair, I should mention I have not watched the En Busca finals yet because I have a couple of tournament matches left to watch before I get to that. He just hasn't (yet at least) had a real standout match or two nor does his body of work stick out to me as strong enough to overcome that. If pressed, I would have him around #10 give or take, so I don't think we are totally far apart on Hechicero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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