ohtani's jacket Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I just spent twenty seconds quelling a tirade against UWF-i. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted August 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I just spent twenty seconds quelling a tirade against UWF-i. Let'er rip. I just watched my first uwfi last week.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 That's why I said that Battlarts is a guilty displeasure. I feel guilty that I don't like it. Granted I've just started trying to watch the promotion this year. I just want to know what to look for in Battlarts that I've been missing out on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Guilty pleasure:AWA TV even when it is really bad. I even enjoy Lee Marshall’s commentary for some reason.Super Kendo. Every hardcore lucha fan online seems to hate him but I think he’s incredible. I can't stand Kato Kung Lee though.Guilty displeasure: When I was obsessed I used to watch ANYTHING: 8th generation VHS copies, anything in black and white (that wasn't supposed to be in BW), films with no sound, handhelds from the rafters, etc. but nowadays unless it’s something from TV in great quality I have problems focusing my attention and I end up playing with my phone or whatever. This is especially bad because a lot of great lucha from the 80s has popped up in handheld format but two days after watching the match I can’t even remember the finish. I can't watch faux-shoot stuff anymore. The "working the armbar" spots (where a guy fights his way out of it) to me look faker in a pro wrestling context than Super Porky's comedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenjo Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I might ban both of you. I'd be long since banned if I commented more on Memphis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Pleasure-Promos where the heel insults the local sports team. Always puts a smile on my face. Displeasure-Shoot style. All of it. I just don't see the appeal of a fake fight where guys do nothing but kick each other and roll around on the mat when the real thing is readily available. Then again, I have no interest in the real thing either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I don't think the appeal of shoot style is for everyone at all, so I don't see people who don't like it any differently. But it's fake combat, just like wrestling is fake combat. Just a different style. I know it's not quite the same thing, but that's how I look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Pro wrestling is fake combat, but it's pretty obvious to anyone who's ever been in a fight or trained in boxing/wrestling/etc. that it isn't a facsimile of a real fight. Shoot style tries to replicate it and I know personally that I just can't get into it. At that point I'd rather just watch the real thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I find it odd/interesting that people get hung up on the MMA thing when watching shootstyle, because save for a few RINGS matches, it's just as obviously worked as any other pro wrestling. I see it similarly to Loss -- just another style of fake combat. And really, there's even a lot of variation within shootstyle (see OJ's hatred of UWF-i, which I enjoy in a totally different way than RINGS). Anyhow, I get that it just doesn't click for a lot of people, much as Dragon Gate or Chikara don't click for me. But I'm a little more thrown by the "I'd rather just watch the real thing" response. Getting back to the thread, my guilty displeasure is Terry Gordy. Great talent, often a great tag wrestler but most of his singles work doesn't do it for me at an all-time-great level (Khan match in World Class excluded but come on, KHAN was involved!). Smokey Mountain is another one. I feel like I should love it because I was an old Crockett fan, but I could never muster much interest. Struggling a little more to think of a guilty pleasure, though I feel like I'm out on a limb in not loathing Randy Orton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Ultimate guilty pleasure might be my current enjoyment of Chris Benoit's work from 1998. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted August 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I find it odd/interesting that people get hung up on the MMA thing when watching shootstyle, because save for a few RINGS matches, it's just as obviously worked as any other pro wrestling. I see it similarly to Loss -- just another style of fake combat. And really, there's even a lot of variation within shootstyle (see OJ's hatred of UWF-i, which I enjoy in a totally different way than RINGS). Anyhow, I get that it just doesn't click for a lot of people, much as Dragon Gate or Chikara don't click for me. But I'm a little more thrown by the "I'd rather just watch the real thing" response. Personally, for me, it's because when you're watching shoot-style, they are making inherent references to MMA (at least now.....UWF-i and others obviously predate the MMA boom and therefore, in their time, I likely would have viewed them quite differently). For example, a 'cross armbreaker' is a dangerous move because we know it's a legit MMA (and BJJ and Judo) submission maneuver. Prior to it's prevalence as such, it had no context of being such a thing in pro wrestling. So, by working that move into a pro wrestling match, you are making an open reference to an outside word. However, in order for such a move to be of any use to a pro wrestling match, two things have to happen - it has to be put on badly, and the person taking the move has to be able to 'fight through it', even though when applied correctly, that's not happening. So, for me at least, it's taking moves that only have relevance because they are 'real', and bring them into pro wrestling with no other context. Moves like suplexes and bodyslams and stf's eithe always have or have acquired a context within pro wrestling that doesn't set off the same "god that looks horrible" feeling I get from shoot style, or that angry faced flow rolling which is popular on the indy scene right now. Hopefully that makes some sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 That makes sense. I would also point out though that use of the cross armbreaker, especially in the Japanese feds, pre-dates the MMA boom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 You make a reasoned point. I just don't see how an armbreaker is profoundly different than a punch in that respect. Plenty of people have the same problem with shoot style, so I'm not shitting on that perspective. It's just interesting because it never created any dissonance for me that way (though I did find shoot style a little dry before I picked up the rhythm of it and saw some of the truly great matches). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted August 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 That makes sense. I would also point out though that use of the cross armbreaker, especially in the Japanese feds, pre-dates the MMA boom. That's why I threw in the BJJ/Judo mention. Japanese crowds would have been familiar with the armbar from judo (at least I would assume some of the crowd would have been). But I would imagine that if I saw an armbreaker before I knew what an arm bar was, maybe I wouldn't have the same problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted August 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 You make a reasoned point. I just don't see how an armbreaker is profoundly different than a punch in that respect. Plenty of people have the same problem with shoot style, so I'm not shitting on that perspective. It's just interesting because it never created any dissonance for me that way (though I did find shoot style a little dry before I picked up the rhythm of it and saw some of the truly great matches). I don't have a good answer for why punches don't (always) bug me in the same way. At lease a really good fake punch looks better than a good fake armbar? it's a reach, but it's something..... As for the dissonance - are you an MMA fan at all? I'm a massive MMA fan and train BJJ, so maybe I'm just a little more sensitive to bad technique than some? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 You make a reasoned point. I just don't see how an armbreaker is profoundly different than a punch in that respect. Plenty of people have the same problem with shoot style, so I'm not shitting on that perspective. It's just interesting because it never created any dissonance for me that way (though I did find shoot style a little dry before I picked up the rhythm of it and saw some of the truly great matches). I don't have a good answer for why punches don't (always) bug me in the same way. At lease a really good fake punch looks better than a good fake armbar? it's a reach, but it's something..... As for the dissonance - are you an MMA fan at all? I'm a massive MMA fan and train BJJ, so maybe I'm just a little more sensitive to bad technique than some? I am but not a hardcore. I was more into it a few years back. I certainly don't know enough to be a stickler about technique, but again, I think I just view shoot style submission work as a whole different animal. I mean, Volk Han was arguably the greatest ever at it, and though he had legit training, a lot of his RINGS moves were just as carny as a shooting star splash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Guilty Pleasure - Santino .I honestly never got tired of Santino and really wanted them to do more with him after that Elimination Chamber match that ended up with him and Bryan at the end. He got enough different partners/love interests over the years that I felt he never got too stale. Guilty Displeasure - I am really not that high on Dean Ambrose. He's the least of the 3 Shield members to me, and not close to 2nd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theconstipatedsmark Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 One for displeasure. Not the complete package as I think he's a great in-ring worker, but Daniel Bryan's mic skills leave a lot to be desired for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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