Undertaker

[GSR]

2 minutes ago, BigBadMick said:

How does 2016-20 help or hurt him?

Has only wrestled 12 matches since 2016, one of those was the Royal Rumble.

Not enough output in those five years to make any difference for me.

[El Dragon]

Personally I don’t think anything Taker did really hurt him or help him, just because I’m not gonna view a guy doing one offs as a big plus or minus. If he was around on weekly TV stinking up the joint (The Ric Flair in the mid 2000’s game) it would stick with me more. 
 

Taker is going to be an interesting debate again. I voted for him in 2016 and while I have some regrets on that ballot, Taker appearing on it isn’t one of them overall. Yeah, a lot of his stuff pre 98 or so is awful but I think that’s a Fiend Wyatt thing where there was no making those good, and he had enough good appearances in e 2000-10 era I think he’s viable. Not sure he cracks my list again but I’m considering him.

[strobogo]

Hurts tremendously as he spent the last few years of his career leaving the impression of a pathetic old sad man who doesn't know when to hang it up and being a risk to himself and co-workers. I think The Last Ride also hurts him as it revealed this guy WWE has been building as the greatest and most mythical guy since at least 1996/1997, the most respected guy in the locker room, etc as a wildly insecure sad old man who didn't know when to give it up/knew when to give it up and couldn't because he had nothing else outside of wrestling. He instead spent the last few years of his career being a fat hobbled mess of an old man embarrassing himself and the company as well as being a risk to himself and his co-workers. Not unlike god tier MMA fighters and boxers who spend the last 5-6 years of their career getting knocked out in the first round. 

That PPV tag match with Roman seemed positive in the sense that you didn't come away from it thinking man Taker looks like he might have a heart attack later tonight.

 

In general I think his 90s output is often the worst stuff on a WWE card from 1991-1999, he was trash in 2000 and 2001 particularly when it came to being a complete shithead to all the Alliance guys and going out of his way to make all of them look bad even when others like Rock were selling like death for guys like Rhyno and Austin was putting over RVD. His best run by far is 2002-2003, and then to me the rest of his career is real hit and miss. The more it leaned into dead man gimmickry, the worse it was, but the more it leaned into more wrestling based stuff, the better. He's involved in some of the lowest lows of the past 30 years in WWE. I don't think his highs balance it out, and I do love the 2002-2003 run a lot. For every post 2004 feud with Angle or Batista or HBK, you get feuds with Khali/Kozlov/Mark Henry/possessing Josh Matthews to torment Orton/Mr. Anderson/JBL/Hassan/the Edge feud that seemed to go on 5 years/the second Kane feud/the HHH feud desperately trying to be on the same level as the HBK one, and so on. 

[fxnj]

I think Undertaker is making my list. He wasn't really on my radar until recently, but a few weeks ago I watched all his Wrestlemania matches in the span of a day and it made me a believer. I'd go as far as saying the Wrestlemania streak is up there with Baba's AJPW booking as some of the most iconic long-term storytelling ever done in a pro wrestling ring.

When I started with the Snuka match, I had no plans of watching every match in such a short time period, but the uniqueness of his character work hooked me in and I just had to see how he would progress match-to-match. Watching it all in short order really helped in enforcing a loose narrative around Undertaker's overall career that further enhances the matches. In his first few appearances (VII-XI), he's the young phenom bulldozing through the top stars of the 80's. He gets his biggest test to that point at XII when he faces Diesel in a match that's also far more ambitious than anything he was seen in to that point, and he passes fine, leading into his title win at 13.

XIV-XIX is the point where Undertaker has already been firmly established as a top level guy, meaning he is now someone that others are trying to take down to make a name for themselves. XIV also closes the book somewhat on his old school zombie gimmick by matching him with his brother, whose in-ring style feels like a mirror image of Undertaker from those earlier Wrestlemanias. The years following XIV see experimentation in his gimmick and his face/heel alignment, until finally he re-debuts at XX with a modernized version of his zombie gimmick and begins what can be called his prime championship years. This period also saw the first inklings of the Undertaker's streak as a legend in itself. Jim Ross drew attention to it during the entrances in the X-Seven match to sell what's at stake and Undertaker further drew attention to it in his celebration after his X8 win. This is also the period when Undertaker's entrances/post-match segments become longer/more elaborate. His matches start to feel like events instead of just incidental parts of the show.

At 21 he beats Randy Orton fresh off his WHC win and then he follows that up by... beating Mark Henry in an obvious filler match. However, I read that the original plan for 22 was Undertaker/Angle and they were both pissed at that getting canned, leading to them treating their match at No Way Out 2006 as if it were an honorary Wrestlemania match. I slotted the Angle match into the marathon after the Orton match and it works amazingly well as a follow-up, featuring Undertaker showing all kinds of things he'd never shown to that point but also revealing his mortality with Angle scoring a rare clean pin over him. Undertaker's dissatisfaction with the finish and begging Angle for a rematch in the post-match led beautifully to his dual championship wins at 23 and XXIV. This era also saw Undertaker's streak further elevated, to the point where beating him at Wrestlemania is a much bigger deal than beating him outside of it. Accordingly, Batista and Edge both go at him with an urgency that almost makes it feel like they're the ones in the challenger role. Undertaker's usage of rope walking in these matches is another point of interest. It's the most ridiculous looking move in Undertaker's arsenal and accordingly, the older and more cartoony matches saw him get countered most of the time he went for it. Yet at this one point, when he's switched to a more athletic style and his legend is as strong it's ever been, he hits it successfully in almost every match. XXIV even sees Edge counter it twice only  for Undertaker to finally get it on a third attempt, as if to reassert his legend.

At this point I took another detour and watched Flair/Michaels on the undercard of XXIV. It doesn't involve Undertaker, but I feel it's a hugely important match to fully grasping Undertaker/Michaels and it's one of those beautiful bits of unintentional foreshadowing that it's on the undercard of Undertaker's final Wrestlemania world title win. Beneath the surface story of Flair/Michaels in the old star sticking around way past his prime and needing to be "put down" by someone who was still capable was a subtext that Michaels himself, with how he barely squeaked by and had some moments of sloppiness and close calls along the way, was nearing the end of his own road. This is a central theme to the second half of the XXV match and their XXVI match. By this point, Undertaker's streak has become mythologized as something far more important than any title in the promotion, so it's fitting that a show-off like HBK sets out to break it as a way to prove that he, unlike Flair, still belongs in the game. However, the facade of Michaels as Mr. Wrestlemania or the showstopper crumbles when, after Undertaker's botched dive in the XXV match, he begs the referee to stop the match or to give him a countout victory of all things. Conversely, there's an urgency to Undertaker's performance after that dive which goes beyond anything he'd shown up to that point. His reaction after that first Tombstone near fall cemented it as one of the best near falls I've ever seen for how it felt as if every Wrestlemania match leading up to it was building to finally seeing Undertaker defy his own character with such a raw display of shock. Michaels's need to reassert his character afterwards ends up his undoing, firstly in him giving Undertaker the opportunity for that first Tombstone by trying to skin the cat, and then in the finish when he goes for a late match moonsault and gets reversed into a Tombstone. After that masterpiece, which saw two of the longest running performers forced to break down and then try to build back up their carefully constructed characters in the aim of pursuing victory, Michaels isn't satisfied with how things ended. That leads into the XXVI match, where Michaels is basically in the same role that Flair was and Undertaker is the one putting him down. The ending in particular is a perfect parallel to the end of Flair/Michaels. I'd taken issue in the past with the match being no DQ but having no weapons, but in the context of this story it made sense that the stip was more about ensuring Michaels couldn't take the easy way out with a count-out or DQ and needed to beat Undertaker straight-up.

When Triple H sets out to avenge his friend at XXVII and XXVIII, we are deep into the era of where Undertaker feels invincible at Wrestlemania. That makes it even more impressive that XXVII is the most human Undertaker has looked at any point in this entire marathon. First we see it in the stretch run, where Undertaker draws from his MMA fandom to do some remarkably detailed knocked out fighter type selling. Then comes the post-match where we get an awesome worked shoot stretcher job. That inability to leave the ring on his own power creates a brilliant role-reversal at XXVIII where it's finally Undertaker who comes in looking like he wants to prove he still belongs (this is sounding familiar). Sadly Michaels's ridiculous overacting made it impossible for me to enjoy the in-ring storytelling of the match in anything more than an ironic sense, but even still it's an extremely satisfying moment in the post-match when Undertaker accepts Michaels's help to get back on his feet and the three hug it out. After such an intense emotional high, the CM Punk match at 29 was maybe not the best follow-up tonally for how Punk almost comes across as a comic character in how cartoonishly evil he's portrayed. Still, it's a nice tribute piece to Paul Bearer and that more cartoony era of Undertaker. It continues to build Undertaker as an invincible force even in the face of a much younger opponent in the prime of their career. It also introduces Paul Heyman to the story, leading to XXX.

As the climax of this story, XXX is the most brilliant piece of storytelling I've seen from WWE. After failing with CM Punk at 29, Heyman tries once more but this time by throwing his weight behind a former UFC champion. The Undertaker's entrance is the perfect set-up for his pride before his fall. I'd seen him make many big and drawn out entrances with his druids leading the way, but it was never as outright arrogant as what's shown here, where he's already burning Brock's coffin before the match has begun. This is the point where the streak has become a legend that towers over the Undertaker's own abilities as something that will never be broken, even in a case like this where it's an aging Undertaker against the best legitimate fighter to have set foot in a WWE ring to this point. Of course, almost as soon as the bell rings it's obvious that Undertaker is way out of his depth and the match takes on the shape of a funeral procession for the myth of The Streak. Lesnar makes good on his promises in the build-up that he's unaffected by the Undertaker's aura or his mind games and lays down a focused demolition of the legend with relatively minor moments of adversity. JBL and Cole have since claimed they had no idea that Undertaker was losing, but that's still hard for me to believe with how great they are calling the match as if an Undertaker loss is a foregone conclusion. Ditto the exceptional camera work that focused on angles portraying Brock towering over Undertaker and the quiet crowd that further reinforced the somber mood. Undertaker really has nothing to be ashamed of in his performance, either. Knowing his MMA fandom, I really can't think of a more fitting way for Undertaker to have ended his streak, which makes the negative fan reaction and Undertaker's dislike for his performance kind of sad to me. His slowness and inability to execute his moves as smoothly as before, taken with his incredible old man selling, is the most compelling portrayal I've seen in pro wrestling of an over the hill fighter who can no longer keep up. It's the same thing that's happened to so many greats in boxing or MMA who stuck around too long, but adapted uncompromisingly to the dramatized world of pro wrestling. Heyman's incredible pep talk to Lesnar towards the end further sells the gravity of the moment and feels like something you might hear from a trainer between the championship rounds of a big shoot fight.

The moment Lesnar hits his 3rd F5 and gets the 3 count is pretty great even in isolation, but it really hits after seeing the 23 years of streak mythmaking leading up to it. There's an amazing duality to how the Undertaker's character, built on as many cartoony moments as any other in wrestling history, can create what feels like such a big statement on the importance of legitimacy in wrestling. It's like seeing tens of thousands of fans realizing Santa Claus isn't real all at once. After the match, you don't even need a promo to see that the Undertaker is contemplating retirement during that long walk to the back. 

After XXX, we've come full circle to Undertaker officially having his old yeller moment after having previously put down Michaels who put down Flair. Unlike those guys, he continues to attempt to try and hang on. His comeback starts with the Bray Wyatt match at 31. During the entrances, the announcers wonder which version of the Undertaker we'll see tonight. With how the sentence cut off, I could almost hear Vince screaming in their ear to shut up and not ruin Brock's win, but the implication was still there that XXX had to be an aberration and this was Undertaker's chance to make things right. He goes on to dominate Bray early on, but then he does a brilliant job of playing the shell shocked old man once Bray takes over. He wins, but only after going to war and trading finisher kickouts with a guy who 10 years earlier likely wouldn't have given him nearly as much trouble. Next is Shane McMahon, with the stipulation that Undertaker losing means he'll be barred from further Wrestlemania appearances. Undertaker's desire to stay in the game has left him reduced to a plaything that Vince can book in what's basically a freak show fight to punish his family. By the end, after witnessing Shane's big jump off the cell, Undertaker looks disgusted at himself for even being involved in it and, stipulation be damned, unwraps his gloves at the end as is common tradition for retiring MMA fighters. Still, he gets suckered back for one more shot at greatness at 33 against Roman Reigns. It's conclusively shown that what happened against Lesnar wasn't a fluke and Reigns reluctantly finds himself in the role of putting down old yeller. Afterwards, Undertaker fully removes his gear, again signifying that he's retiring.

34 is the point where the story fell off the rails for me, though it's late enough into things that it doesn't really detract too much. The backstage story I'd read was that Undertaker spent months training to get into shape for a long match with Cena, but then he was told right before walking out that he'd only be doing a quick squash and Cena had to convince him to go along with it. It felt like the company had entirely lost faith in Undertaker working a real match at that point, which it really shouldn't have as he was still pretty brilliant with his selling in the matches leading up to this. Even though it's something that would have been much better happening 10 years earlier, I think there was still real potential there for Cena and Undertaker to work a compelling legends match and it sucks that we were robbed of it. Still, the boneyard match with AJ is a satisfying conclusion to the near 30 year saga. It feels like a respectful celebration of the Undertaker's status in the industry in a way that the Cena match wasn't, and the ending with Undertaker riding into the night is as good a send-off for the character as any. Also, even though I think fans are dumb for not seeing the greatness in Undertaker's old man performances, it's still nice that he got to follow Michaels in leaving at a point where fans thought he had plenty of great (cinematic) matches left in him.

I've tried to avoid focusing on match quality or ring work and just focus on the narrative aspects, but even just that ended in a way lengthier post than I anticipated. Speaking briefly on that aspect, I mostly fall in line with the consensus besides my love for those late career Undertaker performances. I was somewhat surprised at how good Undertaker looked in those early matches with his character work, and I thought him and Jake had surprisingly good chemistry with how their characters bounced off each other. I was also impressed with the XIV Kane match and reviewed it in more detail in the MDA. XIX was also a minor gem with lots of fun 2-on-1 spots and quality A-Train trash talk. The Triple H matches at XXVII and XXVIII were the biggest disappointments for me with neither really hitting like I wanted, except for the amazing post-match angles. I also want to draw attention to the way he varies his selling performances in his finisher trading epics from the Michaels series onwards. If you pay attention, it's clear he puts in a lot of thought in varying how he goes about performing spots like using the ropes to help himself up or the failed sit-ups. Rankings are below, though, for GME organization purposes, beyond **** I go in increments of 1/8 instead of the standard 1/4, so ****1/2 for me is probably closer to ***** for most people.

XXV ****5/8
XXX ****1/2
XXVI ****3/8
NWO 06 ****1/4
29 ****1/8
XXIII
36
31 ****
XIV
X-Seven ***3/4
33
32
21
XIX ***1/2
XXIV
XXVIII
XXVII ***1/4
XII
VIII ***
X8
IX **1/2
XX **
34
22
XV
XIII *1/2
VII *
XI

[Microstatistics]

On 5/6/2024 at 10:03 PM, fxnj said:

As the climax of this story, XXX is the most brilliant piece of storytelling I've seen from WWE. After failing with CM Punk at 29, Heyman tries once more but this time by throwing his weight behind a former UFC champion. The Undertaker's entrance is the perfect set-up for his pride before his fall. I'd seen him make many big and drawn out entrances with his druids leading the way, but it was never as outright arrogant as what's shown here, where he's already burning Brock's coffin before the match has begun. This is the point where the streak has become a legend that towers over the Undertaker's own abilities as something that will never be broken, even in a case like this where it's an aging Undertaker against the best legitimate fighter to have set foot in a WWE ring to this point. Of course, almost as soon as the bell rings it's obvious that Undertaker is way out of his depth and the match takes on the shape of a funeral procession for the myth of The Streak. Lesnar makes good on his promises in the build-up that he's unaffected by the Undertaker's aura or his mind games and lays down a focused demolition of the legend with relatively minor moments of adversity. JBL and Cole have since claimed they had no idea that Undertaker was losing, but that's still hard for me to believe with how great they are calling the match as if an Undertaker loss is a foregone conclusion. Ditto the exceptional camera work that focused on angles portraying Brock towering over Undertaker and the quiet crowd that further reinforced the somber mood. Undertaker really has nothing to be ashamed of in his performance, either. Knowing his MMA fandom, I really can't think of a more fitting way for Undertaker to have ended his streak, which makes the negative fan reaction and Undertaker's dislike for his performance kind of sad to me. His slowness and inability to execute his moves as smoothly as before, taken with his incredible old man selling, is the most compelling portrayal I've seen in pro wrestling of an over the hill fighter who can no longer keep up. It's the same thing that's happened to so many greats in boxing or MMA who stuck around too long, but adapted uncompromisingly to the dramatized world of pro wrestling. Heyman's incredible pep talk to Lesnar towards the end further sells the gravity of the moment and feels like something you might hear from a trainer between the championship rounds of a big shoot fight.

The moment Lesnar hits his 3rd F5 and gets the 3 count is pretty great even in isolation, but it really hits after seeing the 23 years of streak mythmaking leading up to it. There's an amazing duality to how the Undertaker's character, built on as many cartoony moments as any other in wrestling history, can create what feels like such a big statement on the importance of legitimacy in wrestling. It's like seeing tens of thousands of fans realizing Santa Claus isn't real all at once. After the match, you don't even need a promo to see that the Undertaker is contemplating retirement during that long walk to the back. 

XXX ****1/2
 

That finish was so surreal that I never actually considered the match quality itself. It doesn't have the best rep but wouldn't be surprised if it held up well, especially with all the historical context and Lesnar being his best opponent. 

Taker has a solid shot at the Top 50 for me. I guess he was a late bloomer and his form dipped in the early 2000s but 1996-1998 and 2006-2015 are very impressive career peaks. The picks below are, at the very least, very good, while the bold made my most recent Top 100. This doesn't include the series vs. Big Show, Edge, Triple H, Batista, which were all worthwhile from what I remember. 

vs. Mankind, Buried Alive

vs. Bret Hart, One Night Only 97

vs. Shawn Michaels, Badd Blood

vs. Mankind, King of the Ring 98

vs. Kurt Angle, No Way Out 06

vs. Shawn Michaels, WM25

vs. Rey Mysterio, RR 2010

vs. Shawn Michaels, WM26

vs. Brock Lesnar, Summerslam 2015

As for old man Taker, I remember liking Reigns WM33 and Goldberg 2019 way more than most outside our bubble did, so those are feathers in his cap to me. And, of course, he was one of the most legendary characters in wrestling history and combined that with array of interesting offense (particularly impressive for a big man) and, as mentioned, great and sometimes nuanced, and hence under-appreciated, selling.

 

[Grimmas]

I'm having trouble finding a year Undertaker is even a top 25 wrestler, so that really hurts him in my algorithms.

[EnviousStupid]

10 hours ago, Grimmas said:

I'm having trouble finding a year Undertaker is even a top 25 wrestler, so that really hurts him in my algorithms.

I think your best bet is somewhere between 2007-2010. I'd call this period of time his peak and when most promotions either weren't doing so hot or had past their hottest periods (ROH, NOAH). Even then though, I wouldn't call Taker a lock for any of those years.

[Grimmas]

On 5/12/2024 at 10:28 PM, EnviousStupid said:

I think your best bet is somewhere between 2007-2010. I'd call this period of time his peak and when most promotions either weren't doing so hot or had past their hottest periods (ROH, NOAH). Even then though, I wouldn't call Taker a lock for any of those years.

I'm currently doing 2007 and haven't gotten to 'Taker yet, so I guess I'll find out. I remember the Bautista matches being good.