When did the IC title nose dive for you?

[Sidebottom]

It's universally accepted that the IC title is not what it once was and the reasons are clear as to why. But when did it fall off a cliff for you? I was having a debate with a friend recently and he suggested as early as 1999 citing the Godfather as champion. I disagreed calling that reign a blip on the radar - not dissimilar to other blips on the radar at times when fans generally considered "Golden Ages" of the belt (Mountie in 1992 and Dean Douglas in 1995 for transition purposes).

 

1999 to me was good for the IC title when D Lo Brown and Jeff Jarrett were having spirited scraps for the belt and it felt like it meant something, and that both men could climb the roster. You had Chyna on the scene shortly after which was a joke, but then we got into Jericho, Benoit and Angle territory which was an enthusiastic period.

 

For me it was post 2001 when there was an ungodly amount of titles on the roster. You'd have great periods (Guerrero coming back going against an over RVD) one minute and then filler trash the next, with the latter eventually winning out.

[Matt D]

The Russo-tastic quick title changes/short runs in 99 is probably the answer for a lot of these sort of questions, with a secondary possibility being the de-emphasizing that came with having two world titles.

[W2BTD]

Like every belt in that company, Attitude Era.

 

It's not so much who holds titles as much as how they are treated & positioned.

[Matt D]

I think it held up pretty well in 98, though. Shamrock all but beating Rocky 3 PPVs in a row doesn't help, certainly, but HHH and Rock made it seem important and the tournament for it felt fairly important as well. I don't remember Shamrock's run in the back half of 98 too well though. I think it was really with 99 and not just the attitude era in general so much as the four way feud and the bait and switch with Road Dogg replacing Gunn and vice versa leading into the Godfather run and what not.

[KrisZ]

[PeteF3]

The 1999 stuff with Goldust, Godfather, and Road Dogg all hurt it severely, for sure. Chyna and the dual-champion thing with Jericho was worse. But Chris Benoit had gotten the belt back to respectability and was constantly referred to as the "fightingest Intercontinental champion ever," despite being a heel. Then he unceremoniously dropped the belt to Rikishi after a short reign. As much as I liked the Rikishi-Val feud and as over as he was, Rikishi pretty much epitomized the "doesn't need a title" mold. That was the belt's last gasp, at least for awhile.

[Matt D]

I heard Rikishi's 2000 Timeline shoot, and he didn't even seem to understand why they gave him the belt.

[JNLister]

Looking back, 1999 is definitely the time where you've regularly got a titleholder who you couldn't really have headlining a B house show without it feeling flat.

[Gregor]

As a fan, I always cared about the IC Title. Objectively, it was probably in 1995. Jarrett was the first IC champion who felt more like a midcarder than like an upper midcarder, and while champ he lost to Diesel, Aldo Montoya, and Bob Holly. From then until 1998 you get some good champions but also a lot of midcard guys, and the belt isn't featured in a good feud until Rock gets the belt in 1997.

[ohtani's jacket]

When Austin chucked it in the river.

[funkdoc]

this one is interesting because it depends on what you consider a "downfall"

 

the IC title was originally held by legit main-eventers, even if they were past their prime a la pedro. then it moved on to guys who could work main events that drew good houses, but weren't the top guys...think valentine & tito. it became something of a star-making belt after that with savage/warrior/bret, and steamboat & perfect were no lower on the totem pole than tito/valentine during their reigns. and even though honky tonk man was far from a top guy, he was one of their stronger draws when he held the title. i guess shawn fits into that "star-making" timeline as well.

 

jarrett really does stick out like a sore thumb compared to all of the prior champs, but i would listen to arguments that the IC title was never really the same after they stopped giving it to established main-eventers.

[DMJ]

My vote is 99' with Val Venis, Road Dogg, Godfather, etc.

 

As for Jarrett in 95', I have to admit I was 11 at the time and at the time, I didn't think Jarrett was a bad champion. In 1995, if you were like me and didn't know Jarrett's history or that he was even a second generation guy, you could look at him as a "rookie" and say that he was, like Razor Ramon and Shawn Michaels, a guy that could be a main eventer in a few years. Ditto for Ahmed Johnson in 96'. They were the New Generation and they had star quality (or, at the very least, the power of the WWE machine pushing them strong).

 

If, in 1995, you had told me that WrestleMania 15 would be headlined by a Jarrett/Bret feud or a Jarrett/Diesel feud or even an Ahmed Johnson/Vader feud, I think I would've found that to be totally possible. But 96' was a crazy year and nobody saw the nWo coming, Austin coming, The Rock coming, etc. In 95', Ahmed Johnson and Jeff Jarrett were being groomed so their IC title reigns meant something.

 

Conversely, in 99', Godfather and Road Dogg had peaked and Val Venis, while still fresh, was such a cartoon character that there was no moment I thought he was going to be a World Champion.

 

As someone else said, the Mountie and Dean Douglas were transitional champions, so their reigns were never THAT serious (same for Piper), but before 99', in general, the IC title was still a big deal because it was the title given to guys being groomed for a real run...and that includes Marc Mero, who, if IIRC, the WWE signed to a pretty huge deal.

[Russellmania]

My vote is 99' with Val Venis, Road Dogg, Godfather, etc.

 

As for Jarrett in 95', I have to admit I was 11 at the time and at the time, I didn't think Jarrett was a bad champion. In 1995, if you were like me and didn't know Jarrett's history or that he was even a second generation guy, you could look at him as a "rookie" and say that he was, like Razor Ramon and Shawn Michaels, a guy that could be a main eventer in a few years. Ditto for Ahmed Johnson in 96'. They were the New Generation and they had star quality (or, at the very least, the power of the WWE machine pushing them strong).

 

If, in 1995, you had told me that WrestleMania 15 would be headlined by a Jarrett/Bret feud or a Jarrett/Diesel feud or even an Ahmed Johnson/Vader feud, I think I would've found that to be totally possible. But 96' was a crazy year and nobody saw the nWo coming, Austin coming, The Rock coming, etc. In 95', Ahmed Johnson and Jeff Jarrett were being groomed so their IC title reigns meant something.

 

Conversely, in 99', Godfather and Road Dogg had peaked and Val Venis, while still fresh, was such a cartoon character that there was no moment I thought he was going to be a World Champion.

 

As someone else said, the Mountie and Dean Douglas were transitional champions, so their reigns were never THAT serious (same for Piper), but before 99', in general, the IC title was still a big deal because it was the title given to guys being groomed for a real run...and that includes Marc Mero, who, if IIRC, the WWE signed to a pretty huge deal.

Herein lies the rub...not that this thread is asking how to restore it to it's former glory, but if someone were to ask I'd say that this would be the key. Fans need to be re-conditioned to believe that if a guy holds the IC title then he will eventually be a main event guy. That's a big problem with the title in the last few years. Guys who hold that belt haven't consistently been pushed to greater heights after losing it. Instead it just gets passed around the midcard and almost none of those guys get pushed after holding it.

[artDDP]

I feel it was in 1999. Just the year prior you had The Rock enjoying a lengthy reign and feuding with Ken Shamrock and then Triple H, all guys being groomed for the main event. The title and their matches were treated as important.

 

In 1999 it was treated as no more valuable than the Hardcore title.

[funkdoc]

yea basically i was going for what russellmania said

 

WCW actually did this really well with the US title, when flair lost the world title and immediately challenged for it. his promos really put over how the US title was the fastest track to another world title shot, which is the kind of thing i'd like to see again.

 

re: the mid-90s champs, i don't think jarrett was in the same ballpark as ahmed or mero. ahmed was clearly being groomed for the main event before the injuries & sloppiness caught up - he had a goldberg-style aura about him and was hugely over even though you couldn't understand a word he was saying. mero didn't have that same vibe but stood out to the average fan far more than jarrett did, what with sable and the shooting star press and all.

[BillThompson]

WCW actually did this really well with the US title, when flair lost the world title and immediately challenged for it. his promos really put over how the US title was the fastest track to another world title shot, which is the kind of thing i'd like to see again.

 

Vader in 1995 is another great example of this. They made his chase, and eventual capture of, the US title a major factor in why he should be considered the number one contender to the heavyweight title.

[anarchistxx]

 

Herein lies the rub...not that this thread is asking how to restore it to it's former glory, but if someone were to ask I'd say that this would be the key. Fans need to be re-conditioned to believe that if a guy holds the IC title then he will eventually be a main event guy. That's a big problem with the title in the last few years. Guys who hold that belt haven't consistently been pushed to greater heights after losing it. Instead it just gets passed around the midcard and almost none of those guys get pushed after holding it.

 

Problem is that now, just about everyone on the roster has been groomed for a main event run or has failed at one or it has been aborted. They don't know how to create strong midcard characters anymore, so you get this awful cycle of guys being pushed to the moon and built up massively, and then they either bomb or are badly booked or the company changes their mind and they are jobbing a few months down the line.

 

If you look at recent IC Champions like Ziggler, Miz, Axel etc these are guys who have been built as possible main eventers and booked really strong.

[fakeplastictrees]

The I.C. title at one point had a strong lineage of unover champions. It all started with Drew McIntrye. He was followed by Barrett, Rhodes, Jackson, Axel, and The Miz. Not in that order, but still. That would be the JTS moment for me. The most un-over guy on the roster getting to hold the second tier title. WWE was on this kick of making all of its heels as boring as possible.

[artDDP]

No one has mentioned Triple H not wanting it in 2002 when WWE wanted to make it the Raw championship?

[cm funk]

Yeah, I was going to say, lots of good points hit but when the IC title was "unified" into HHH's vanity WHC that was a pretty big moment in the gradual downfall of the title. It's had it's moments since then after it was brought back (Orton's run probably being the best of the last decade) but it was NEVER the same after that

 

I don't think I can pinpoint just one thing, it was just a gradual downfall of bad booking and the title sliding from a semi-main event level belt to midcard mediocrity. Several people mentioned Jarrett and I was going to mention that too. The "New Generation" era is where the belt really took a step back. When Jarrett was champ he lost all the time and even did a couple of false finish one day title switches with firmly mid-card at best guys like Savio Vega and Bob Holly. Michaels in 92-93 was a guy who everyone knew was on the cusp of being a top guy. When Razor got the belt he was one of the most over babyfaces in the company, right there with Bret and Undertaker, and in the mold of a "could headline a B-Show" IC champ ala Savage to Bret's Hogan, with Undertaker as a special attraction who didn't need titles. Razor dropped it to Diesel who was being groomed to be a main eventer. Then he lost it to Jarrett in a flukey way at Rumble 95 and the belt was slotted down into the mid-card. Jarrett was never a threat to any top guy. They put it back on HBK after he turned face and it felt more important again, then they did that shit where he forfeits to Dean Douglas who immediately loses to Razor....and from that point on it was just hot potatoed around and it never really meant what it used to. The Rock made it important for a while, and I thought Shamrock was a good champ too. They both held the title for 100+ days, 250+ in Rock's case. After Shamrock (98-99) the title changed hands 48 times over the next 4 years with nobody holding it for 100+ days, until Orton got it and held it for 200+ days. Orton made it important again for a while, but by that point with all the changes and watering down and inferior champions the belt was never the same

 

I think they can bring it back to what it once was if they want to, but they have shown zero interest in taking the steps to do so

[broccoman]

My vote's a bit later- the brand split.

 

When they made the WCW title the Smackdown title, you knew that was the old role of the IC belt on PPV's.

It reduced the IC and US belts down to what we would have called TV title level in the 90s.

 

I think the IC is increasing in importance, they just need to put it on someone who fans believe is a rising star. I think WWE really missed on a big opportunity not giving Reigns the IC belt- they could have had work matches with guys like Cesaro for the level to improve his ringwork, and it would have elevated the belt while keeping him away from being overexposed.

Not only do I think they're taking it back, I think they have to take it back.

 

The US belt being the modern day TV belt I'm fine with- Sheamus would have been a great face TV champ in mid-90's WCW.

[Russellmania]

My vote's a bit later- the brand split.

 

When they made the WCW title the Smackdown title, you knew that was the old role of the IC belt on PPV's.

It reduced the IC and US belts down to what we would have called TV title level in the 90s.

 

I think the IC is increasing in importance, they just need to put it on someone who fans believe is a rising star. I think WWE really missed on a big opportunity not giving Reigns the IC belt- they could have had work matches with guys like Cesaro for the level to improve his ringwork, and it would have elevated the belt while keeping him away from being overexposed.

Not only do I think they're taking it back, I think they have to take it back.

 

The US belt being the modern day TV belt I'm fine with- Sheamus would have been a great face TV champ in mid-90's WCW.

yeah that's one of the problems with this situation. They're afraid to put the IC title on guys they see as future main eventers like Reigns and Wyatt. But since they never do that the belts are viewed as midcard titles and it's just a vicious cycle. IMO Reigns and Wyatt are exactly the kind of guys they should be putting the IC title on. In fact a Reigns/Wyatt IC title feud could help launch those guys like it launched The Rock and HHH if they did it right. Unfortunately the way they book now is to either make a guy a mid-carder forever or launch him to main event status without much build.

 

Another consideration is that they use the money in the bank briefcase to accomplish a lot of what they used to use the IC title for in the past. If this was 1994, Rollins would be holding the IC title instead of the MITB contract and it would almost the same effect.

[Marty]

I'll argue when they ended the original lineage, and then rebooted it. It wasn't the same title to me, and it hasn't been booked nearly as effectively as the original one.

 

The original one had some bruises towards the end (Austin tossing into a river, Chyna as "co-champion"), but it still perservered. You wouldn't know the same title Rock and HHH fought tooth and nail over was the same one Austin tossed away some 9 months earlier. You wouldn't know the battles between Benoit and Jericho, or the stunning win by Jeff Hardy over HHH was for the title once held by Chyna. Once the title got merged with a title designed to be HHH's vanity world title at the time, that was it. There may have been some instances the new one had where it was treated properly (some battles between RVD and Jericho, Punk chasing Regal, etc.), but it, for the most part, died when the original lineage died.

 

No different than the "World Heavyweight Championship". Never had the same meaning as the original NWA/WCW gold in my book, especially since it got merged with the WWE title anyway for a relatively short 12 year run.

[Bigelow34]

I agree with Marty... to me, it dropped off when it came back in 2003. Even though it hit some rough waters in 1999 and the Invasion, it had a good run for most of 2002, being highly valued in the Regal/Edge and RVD/Eddie feuds, as well as a good Benoit/RVD SummerSlam match. Kane winning it and the death at No Mercy to me was the end of its meaningfulness.

[King Solomon]

When the Honkey Tonk Man won it