Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I'm essentially starting this thread over one guy but I thought it could generate some decent discussion. So I've seen thanks to some WWF DVDs and some tapes a good little bit of the AWA during the last week or two. It's beyond me how anyone ever took Baron Von Raschke seriously as a wrestler. The guy looks more like a cancer patient than he does a wrestler. I though he looked especially bad in there against tag teams like the Road Warriors. Just my 2 cents anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Jeff Jarrett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 HBK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Can I get reasoning on the HBK one? I'm curious as to why you think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Baron was about 10 years past his prime at that point in his career (AWA vs the Road Warriors), but I agree with you that I never bought him as a legit threat. Personally, I never really bought into Jake Roberts. I know, but before everyone burns me at the stake, yes he was the master of psychology and promos but I never really saw a match of his that I'd consider good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I've seen a couple of good Roberts matches but those were at the hands of Ted Dibiase and other superior workers. I kind of agree with you that the guy was almost entirely all gimmick. The AWA was kind of depressing in the late 70s/early 80s. You just had so many guys who's time had passed in the early 70s and a ton of young talent that Vern just wouldn't use. It reminds me a lot of the current WWF except there's no way to grab away the Hulk Hogans or Curt Hennigs of the federation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 HBK was never savvy enough like Bret Hart, someone around his size, to take down someone larger than him in a convincing fashion other than getting his ass kicked and then negating said beatdown after he does his Hulk-Up/Kip up move, which normally signals the end of his matches. HBK is a glorified and short sighted stunt man with no actual wrestling talent to speak of and the idea of him being a HOFer in the wrestling ranks is putrid. The only reason his hardcore match with Diesel got pimped was because it was like the first actual No-DQ hardcore match that the WWF had in like 10 years where the company allowed the guys to cut loose from the WWF formula matches, which, at the time, was a breath of fresh air. Of *course* motherfuckers are going to tout that match as an all-time classic. I mean, fuck, Sabu of all people almost won an Observer award for "WRESTLER OF THE YEAR" just a couple years before this match took place and the fans ate up the WWF's attempt at trying the hardcore match nonsense that got ECW over with fans for a while until everyone just got burned out. Same deal with HBK vs. Taker in the HItC match: The WWE, for once, actually had a great payoff to one of their "mystery angle" storylines where Kane comes into the match at just the right point and *rapes* the Undertaker like no one else had since the 10-man beatdown he took 3 years previous to the match. The match itself is HBK-pinball nonsense, where Taker just ends up looking like a choad for not being able to put away Michaels *in a cage* where HBK's outside interference and help couldn't be a factor and allow Taker to have a clean match with the DX leader. The match does not hold up well today and I never thought it was as smartly worked as many people touted it to be. I thought it just helped make the Undertaker look weak for diddling around with HBK for so long in the match when he should have murdered him in 10 minutes or less. My comments from above also ring back to this match: Breat Hart could have held off the Undertaker's onslaught long enough to where he could possibly wear down the Undertaker and then work his legs over so the big man would no longer have his legs to move around with, thus putting him at a major disadvantage. Ditto for Chris Benoit (pre-WWF jump). HBK on the other hand has his elbow drop and super kick. That's it. You can't build a match around those spots and it's why "technical" wrestlers like Hart and Benoit get praised so heavily to this day for their "smart" in-ring tactician work. They kept it "real" in wrestling and were convincing with their breaking down of guys too. Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, and even fuckin Taz, short guys, could *deconstruct* larger guys like Nash, Sid and 911 in the ring and come off like believable in-ring tacticians and murderers. "It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog that does." Hart and Benoit have always had that quality to them in spades. HBK, however, has and never will have this in-ring touch to his game and it's why I never bought him as a champion for a company that employs 6'3" + asskickers who'd just end up laying down for the pretty boy when they should have fucking murdered him. HBK's matches were always a blow to the "escapism" of wrestling in my view once he got the pin over guys like Nash, Sid, the Undertaker, Vader, Yokozuna, etc. Those guys should have mopped the floor with a brainless twit like HBK as opposed to leg breakers like Hart and Benoit. ...yet Vince splooges over choads like HBK and HHH. The wrestling world just isn't fair sometimes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Ah, very good. Excellent reasoning and you covered most of my gripes about Michaels as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Oh yeah... Kurt Angle. See my reasons for HBK. Fuck Meltzer for his Angle love fest too. Insecure bastard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 My biggest problem with Angle is he steals the signature spots of other workers. That always seemed extremely unprofessional to me especially when he was doing it with guys in the same company. I also got sick of him when he was letting his wife run her mouth about RVD in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Kendall Windham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Meltz loves Angle because he's a gold medalist in "real" wrestling and Meltz has a hard-on for any type of shoot fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 I'm not big on Steve Corino either. I still think his King of Old School gimmick was made because he sucks in the ring. I've never bought Justin Credible either. He looks like he should be washing dishes at Waffle House not winning the ECW Title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest teke184 Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Jeff Jarrett, Bradshaw, and Bubba Ray Dudley (I'm talking circa 2002, when he was pushed as a RAW Superstar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Baron was about 10 years past his prime at that point in his career (AWA vs the Road Warriors), but I agree with you that I never bought him as a legit threat. Personally, I never really bought into Jake Roberts. I know, but before everyone burns me at the stake, yes he was the master of psychology and promos but I never really saw a match of his that I'd consider good. Even a month ago, I would have totally backed you on Jake Roberts. I've never been a big fan of his, but I've become a HUGE fan of his after watching the DVDVR WWF discs and the Mid South stuff that's become available. I should really do a post about the difference in opinion I have on him now, because he's become one of my favorites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Meltz loves Angle because he's a gold medalist in "real" wrestling and Meltz has a hard-on for any type of shoot fighting. Yeah, which is why I offer Meltzer a hearty "fuck off" whenever I see him get all lovey dovey about Angle's in-ring wrasslin skillz. Yea d00der! Fuck, the only time I *ever* thought of Angle as an actual Olympic Gold medalist in a WWE ring was when he worked against Chris Benoit in their Wrestlemania 17 match. Funny enough, Benoit, the fake wrassler, was doing most of the actual leading on the mat. That was the only time I actually thought Angle looked like a legit wrestler. It also doesn't help he's a goofball too for some real wrasslin killer. His "serious" side on the current RAW brand show is about 5 years too late to make a difference after being called a "fag" by HHH and not breaking his leg for the remark. Goddamn, HHH really helped fuck the WWE up... Kurt Angle should stick to doing moonsaults and missing them all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 PG-13. Non believable gimmick, non believable wrestlers, they looked like a couple of kids who's parents let them run the ropes at an indy show after the matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 The entire undercard of Ring of Honor, Sorry I just can't get into guys that weigh 100 lbs. and who I could probably take in a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 PG-13. Non believable gimmick, non believable wrestlers, they looked like a couple of kids who's parents let them run the ropes at an indy show after the matches. I think, in essence, that's what made PG-13 work. They were the kind of little punks that you hated but you just couldn't avoid. They were always flirting with the cashier at the Wawa, trying to convince her to sell some cigarettes to them at the age of 17, while you were patiently waiting in line and were about to become late for something you already had planned. If you were a father, PG13 were the guys that you feared your daughters dating, or in many cases, they were the guys that had already impregnated your daughters. If you were the police, you kept a close eye on these guys because they most likely had meth labs set up in their rented trailers. Now, they're in the middle of your wrestling. Oh, hell no! Best white trash gimmick ever, unless DDP gets counted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Watching Angle really makes you appreciate Steve "Dr. Death" Williams. Take that however you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 On a semi-related note, when I was looking at the NWA title history at Wrestling-Titles.com I literally laughed out loud the first time I saw a photo of Mike Rapada. I swear that guy bags groceries at the store near my house now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Watching Angle really makes you appreciate Steve "Dr. Death" Williams. Take that however you will. Angle couldn't carry Dr.Death's jock strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sass Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 PG-13. Non believable gimmick, non believable wrestlers, they looked like a couple of kids who's parents let them run the ropes at an indy show after the matches. I think, in essence, that's what made PG-13 work. They were the kind of little punks that you hated but you just couldn't avoid. They were always flirting with the cashier at the Wawa, trying to convince her to sell some cigarettes to them at the age of 17, while you were patiently waiting in line and were about to become late for something you already had planned. If you were a father, PG13 were the guys that you feared your daughters dating, or in many cases, they were the guys that had already impregnated your daughters. If you were the police, you kept a close eye on these guys because they most likely had meth labs set up in their rented trailers. Now, they're in the middle of your wrestling. Oh, hell no! Best white trash gimmick ever, unless DDP gets counted. Paging Dirty White Boy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 Rapada could be my champion any day if he was willing to buy a title run like he did with the NWA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 24, 2005 Report Share Posted October 24, 2005 My views on Angle were finally etched in stone when the Observer reported last year that he got pissed at Eddy Guerrero for staying down and selling his suplexes because he wanted him to immediately get up so he could give him more. I made the Angle/Doc comparison, because really, Angle by all means should be the far superior worker, but Doc was much better because he was taught how to work in proper fashion, he learned how to work in more than one style, and he was given far better booking. A good comparison is the way Angle worked with Rey Misterio Jr in the tag matches back in 2002 during Smackdown's "hot streak". Compare that to the way Doc would work with Ricky Morton in Mid South in 1985. Doc didn't no sell Morton's offense, but Morton showed fear and the only way he could get any type of opening on him was to outsmart him or run circles around him. With Rey, Angle works comedy spots and parity sequences more reminiscent of a really bad RVD/Lynn ECW match. In fact, if you go back and compare the tag scene on Smackdown to the tag scene on RAW in 2002, I'm convinced that RAW had the stronger tag division. RVD and Kane had better chemistry than they were given credit for at the time, especially when faced off against a good team. Booker and Goldust are the best babyface tag team WWE has had in ... geez ... 10+ years, probably. Their run wasn't as long as the Hardyz, but they were far more consistent. Vitamin C started off really shaky, but Christian came along quite a bit as a worker teaming with Jericho and working opposite Booker and Dustin every night for 3-4 months. In fact, he worked with them for most of the year prior to that as well, as he did tag matches against them with Christian and Test as partners. Anyway, Jericho and Christian were probably better than every tag team on Smackdown with the exception of Eddy and Chavo, and they may have at that point even been better than them. I would have liked to have seen Los Guerreros against Bookerdust to make a fair comparison. What hurt the RAW tag division was the lack of depth. If not for the roster split, 2002 could have been the year to totally reestablish the tag division for the next 3-5 years after the Hardyz, E & C and the Dudleyz all burned out. Jericho/Christian, Benoit/Angle, Edge/Rey, Los Guerreros, Bookerdust ... they had a good thing going, but they murdered it with hotshot booking and a lack of patience and foresight. I didn't mean to switch the subject to that, but I ended up on a tangent. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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