WWF style v. WCW style

[MoS]

We often hear about wrestlers talk about how, when they jumped from WCW to WWF, they had to spend some time learning the WWF style.

 

So, what was the difference between WWF style and WCW style? 2 things I can think of are the side bumping deal, and the pinball bumping style. What else were the differences?

[Gregor]

There are probably plenty of better examples, in large part because this doesn't have much to do with wrestling style, but the first thing that popped into my head was that WCW guys were always talking to the camera on their way to the ring. WWF guys rarely did that.

[JerryvonKramer]

This needs a bit more refinement MoS. As in when are you talking about. WCW didn't exist until 1988 and JCP doesn't become central to the NWA until about 1986.

 

The style changes in the WWF from 1980 to the mid-80s to the early-mid 90s to the Attitude era and beyond

 

The style changes in WCW too especially after 94 when Hogan comes in, and during the Monday Night War they arguably didn't really have a style as such because it was home to so many different styles, the light heavyweights, the younger more technical up and comers, Hogan and cronies, Flair and the Horsemen, there are so many different things going on.

 

So for a real answer to this, we need a date I reckon.

 

WWF before 1984

 

Historically (as in going back to 70s) "WWF style" is lots of big men, more emphasis on punches and kicks than on throws or holds. It's sort of a brawling Gorilla style, as epitomised by Bruno or Dominic Denucci, or on the heel side guys like Ivan Koloff who were big and who could brawl too, but also who could bump for the faces -- Ken Patera or Spiros Arion also fit that mould. Guys in that 270+ weight bracket who can still work.

 

Backlund's "dominant Scrappy Doo" style is a bit of an anomaly, because no one else really works like that.

 

Vince Sr's booking pattern is well known. This is a heel coming into the territory:

 

Pre-run activity:

 

- Introduced to territory by Blassie / Wizard/ Albano -- heel gets initial heel

 

- One or two TV squashes

 

- One or two MSG wins against Denucci / Strongbow / whomever to establish heel as threat.

 

Match 1: Draw or screwy finish with heel winning -- countout or blood stoppage -- heel gets his heat (also transferred to manager)

Match 2: Draw, revenge match for face where he gets his heat back, often this match is a bit longer

Match 3: Blow off, face champ wins strong, often over in less than 10 minutes.

 

In general, this WWF style was geared towards brawls. The New York crowd wanted a certain degree of action and violence. This is in sharp contrast to the mat-based style of a Dory Funk Jr. or the suplex-heavy style of a Harley Race. Although Backlund during his run was a strange hybrid of all of them.

 

Some features of matches from that era:

 

- Face champ could be dominant and guzzle up the heel, especially in the blow offs

 

- However, if the champ is Bruno or Pedro, then the "big comeback" is hard-wired into the structure of the match. Pedro would sell a lot and then make his big comeback, Bruno usually has a moment when he fires up and starts kicking ass.

 

- Backlund matches don't follow the above.

 

---------

WWF after 1984 till the early 90s

 

Then after 84, "the Hogan match" sets the template for about a decade. Not just Hogan had that match but pretty much everyone had it.

 

"The Hogan match" has two forms.

 

Form 1 vs. Monster

 

Form 2 vs. "Technical" heel

 

Some features of "The Hogan match":

 

- Pretty much ALWAYS follows the shine - heat - comeback - finish formula, with a real focus on the "big comeback" of the face. While this does look back to Pedro and Bruno, I think the Hogan variant has a lot more set pieces. Doesn't matter if it's Hogan or JYD or Duggan or any babyface, the match will more or less always follow the structure of the face clearing house to start, the heel doing something cheap to gain advantage before running through his offense, and then the face doing his trademark pose (e.g. Hogan's hulk-up and shaking of the head) to pop the crowd and make the comeback.

 

- Technical heels ALWAYS have to cheat to gain advantage or win. You'll seldom see a non-Monster heel in WWF win without some cheapness (foreign object or manager interference, foot on the ropes, ref bump, something) between 1984 and 1994.

 

- The finish most of the time will be a finisher on PPV, although Vince did still use his dad's formula for years at the house shows.

 

- If it's a blow off, babyface usually goes over in the end

 

- The heel tends to carry the offensive portion of the match

 

- The babyface is usually overcoming odds of some description

 

- Win or loss, the babyface will usually get their heat back somehow. Picture Duggan with a 2x4 shouting "HO!"

 

- Main event matches are about 20 minutes.

 

-------

 

Mid-late 90s WWF

 

Chad or Charles will have to come in to talk mid-90s, it's been too long for me. I think in general when Bret was champ the rest of the promotion was still wedded to "the Hogan match", but Bret was doing a kind of Bob Backlund tribute act -- although the more Jack Brisco I watch, the more I see Bret in Brisco. I think Bret changes the mould a bit in the main event. Someone else can talk to Shawn and beyond.

 

-------

 

WCW circa 1988-9

 

Re: WCW - since WCW was a direct successor to Crockett, its style in the 80s and early 90s is defined by Flair and the Horsemen.

 

Some features of the style circa 1989:

 

- Main event matches can be between 20 minutes and 45 minutes. Typically longer than WWF matches.

 

- Working a body part. Classic Andersons psychology of picking a limb and destroying it. You'll see a lot of matches built around that concept.

 

- Babyfaces are mostly stupid, see Sting.

 

- Babyfaces are mostly victims of heinous heel beatdowns which injure them, see Dusty.

 

- Babyfaces can work, see Steamboat

 

- Action and motion. Whether it's Flair, Tully, Arn or Windham in the match, the JCP/early WCW style was a lot of action and motion, they keep things moving. Even if Arn is going after a body part, you don't see him sitting in a hold for 12 minutes, he keeps it moving. This isn't "go go go", but I think you'll generally see more MOVEMENT all over the ring in a typical WCW match than in a typical WWF match.

 

- Heels can go over, even in blow offs.

 

- Heels can sometimes win clean.

 

- Less wedded to the shine-heat-comeback-blow off formula. You'll see more match structures in general. Luger vs. Flair at Starrcade 88 comes to mind: babyface dominates for a decent portion of the match, heel manages to take advantage by focusing on a limb, then destroys limb for the win. You'd never ever ever get that narrative on a WWF PPV in 1988.

 

- Babyfaces have more "control segments" in general outside of the shine, consequence of more time.

 

Those are the main ones I can think of.

[NintendoLogic]

One big difference that tripped up a lot of guys in the late 90s/early 00s was that the WWF expected heels to pop up and feed the babyface's comeback as opposed to selling like in WCW.

[Matt D]

Jericho talked to someone about that on his podcast recently. I can't remember who, Trips maybe? And the main thing was "storytelling," with both of them indicating that they really knew nothing until getting to WWE.

[ButchReedMark]

They sold differently. In WWF heels seemed to bump quick and get back up to feed the baby again.

 

EDIT: As covered already by Nintendo Logic. Apologies.

[BigBadMick]

This needs a bit more refinement MoS. As in when are you talking about. WCW didn't exist until 1988 and JCP doesn't become central to the NWA until about 1986.

 

The style changes in the WWF from 1980 to the mid-80s to the early-mid 90s to the Attitude era and beyond

 

The style changes in WCW too especially after 94 when Hogan comes in, and during the Monday Night War they arguably didn't really have a style as such because it was home to so many different styles, the light heavyweights, the younger more technical up and comers, Hogan and cronies, Flair and the Horsemen, there are so many different things going on.

 

So for a real answer to this, we need a date I reckon.

 

WWF before 1984

 

Historically (as in going back to 70s) "WWF style" is lots of big men, more emphasis on punches and kicks than on throws or holds. It's sort of a brawling Gorilla style, as epitomised by Bruno or Dominic Denucci, or on the heel side guys like Ivan Koloff who were big and who could brawl too, but also who could bump for the faces -- Ken Patera or Spiros Arion also fit that mould. Guys in that 270+ weight bracket who can still work.

 

Backlund's "dominant Scrappy Doo" style is a bit of an anomaly, because no one else really works like that.

 

Vince Sr's booking pattern is well known. This is a heel coming into the territory:

 

Pre-run activity:

 

- Introduced to territory by Blassie / Wizard/ Albano -- heel gets initial heel

 

- One or two TV squashes

 

- One or two MSG wins against Denucci / Strongbow / whomever to establish heel as threat.

 

Match 1: Draw or screwy finish with heel winning -- countout or blood stoppage -- heel gets his heat (also transferred to manager)

Match 2: Draw, revenge match for face where he gets his heat back, often this match is a bit longer

Match 3: Blow off, face champ wins strong, often over in less than 10 minutes.

 

In general, this WWF style was geared towards brawls. The New York crowd wanted a certain degree of action and violence. This is in sharp contrast to the mat-based style of a Dory Funk Jr. or the suplex-heavy style of a Harley Race. Although Backlund during his run was a strange hybrid of all of them.

 

Some features of matches from that era:

 

- Face champ could be dominant and guzzle up the heel, especially in the blow offs

 

- However, if the champ is Bruno or Pedro, then the "big comeback" is hard-wired into the structure of the match. Pedro would sell a lot and then make his big comeback, Bruno usually has a moment when he fires up and starts kicking ass.

 

- Backlund matches don't follow the above.

 

---------

WWF after 1984 till the early 90s

 

Then after 84, "the Hogan match" sets the template for about a decade. Not just Hogan had that match but pretty much everyone had it.

 

"The Hogan match" has two forms.

 

Form 1 vs. Monster

 

Form 2 vs. "Technical" heel

 

Some features of "The Hogan match":

 

- Pretty much ALWAYS follows the shine - heat - comeback - finish formula, with a real focus on the "big comeback" of the face. While this does look back to Pedro and Bruno, I think the Hogan variant has a lot more set pieces. Doesn't matter if it's Hogan or JYD or Duggan or any babyface, the match will more or less always follow the structure of the face clearing house to start, the heel doing something cheap to gain advantage before running through his offense, and then the face doing his trademark pose (e.g. Hogan's hulk-up and shaking of the head) to pop the crowd and make the comeback.

 

- Technical heels ALWAYS have to cheat to gain advantage or win. You'll seldom see a non-Monster heel in WWF win without some cheapness (foreign object or manager interference, foot on the ropes, ref bump, something) between 1984 and 1994.

 

- The finish most of the time will be a finisher on PPV, although Vince did still use his dad's formula for years at the house shows.

 

- If it's a blow off, babyface usually goes over in the end

 

- The heel tends to carry the offensive portion of the match

 

- The babyface is usually overcoming odds of some description

 

- Win or loss, the babyface will usually get their heat back somehow. Picture Duggan with a 2x4 shouting "HO!"

 

- Main event matches are about 20 minutes.

 

-------

 

Mid-late 90s WWF

 

Chad or Charles will have to come in to talk mid-90s, it's been too long for me. I think in general when Bret was champ the rest of the promotion was still wedded to "the Hogan match", but Bret was doing a kind of Bob Backlund tribute act -- although the more Jack Brisco I watch, the more I see Bret in Brisco. I think Bret changes the mould a bit in the main event. Someone else can talk to Shawn and beyond.

 

-------

 

WCW circa 1988-9

 

Re: WCW - since WCW was a direct successor to Crockett, its style in the 80s and early 90s is defined by Flair and the Horsemen.

 

Some features of the style circa 1989:

 

- Main event matches can be between 20 minutes and 45 minutes. Typically longer than WWF matches.

 

- Working a body part. Classic Andersons psychology of picking a limb and destroying it. You'll see a lot of matches built around that concept.

 

- Babyfaces are mostly stupid, see Sting.

 

- Babyfaces are mostly victims of heinous heel beatdowns which injure them, see Dusty.

 

- Babyfaces can work, see Steamboat

 

- Action and motion. Whether it's Flair, Tully, Arn or Windham in the match, the JCP/early WCW style was a lot of action and motion, they keep things moving. Even if Arn is going after a body part, you don't see him sitting in a hold for 12 minutes, he keeps it moving. This isn't "go go go", but I think you'll generally see more MOVEMENT all over the ring in a typical WCW match than in a typical WWF match.

 

- Heels can go over, even in blow offs.

 

- Heels can sometimes win clean.

 

- Less wedded to the shine-heat-comeback-blow off formula. You'll see more match structures in general. Luger vs. Flair at Starrcade 88 comes to mind: babyface dominates for a decent portion of the match, heel manages to take advantage by focusing on a limb, then destroys limb for the win. You'd never ever ever get that narrative on a WWF PPV in 1988.

 

- Babyfaces have more "control segments" in general outside of the shine, consequence of more time.

 

Those are the main ones I can think of.

Really good analysis there, Parv. One thing though - Hogan and Warrior typically didn't put on 20 minute main events in the 1984-early 90s timeframe.

[Frankensteiner]

I really don't see that much Backlund in Bret's work or mid-90s WWF style in general. I'd be interested to hear about the similarities that others may see though.

 

I always thought --maybe incorrectly-- that WWF workrate style of the mid-90's was closer to the AWA style of the 80s. Martel, Curt, and Shawn still had some of that style in their work. And Bret as champion worked more similar to AWA-era Martel than he did to Backlund.

[Sidebottom]

I've always said AWA Martel and 90's WWF Bret Hart had some strong similarities. If you watch Martel work bigger men such as Michael Hayes or Stan Hansen from those days it's very similar to the plucky underdog who fights to hold his own (and then does) which Bret Hart was in the 90's. I'll give the edge to Hart though; when he made his comebacks he looked more intense and believable from where I sit. Also worth noting those two have a very similar mindset to the art of wrestling and what that is which is ironic to this topic considering they were both badly hurt in WCW in what they felt were big men being too stiff, ignoring the art of making it look as real as possible but always on the safe side.

[Loss]

From nearly the beginning until nearly the end, a surefire way to pop a WCW crowd was to reverse a move into a tombstone piledriver. The move may have gotten the same reaction if used in dramatic finishing stretches in the WWF, but because it was reserved for the Undertaker, we'll never know for sure. But the tombstone reversal sequences are a WCW constant.

[dgrblue]

I really don't see that much Backlund in Bret's work or mid-90s WWF style in general. I'd be interested to hear about the similarities that others may see though.

 

I always thought --maybe incorrectly-- that WWF workrate style of the mid-90's was closer to the AWA style of the 80s. Martel, Curt, and Shawn still had some of that style in their work. And Bret as champion worked more similar to AWA-era Martel than he did to Backlund.

The reason that WWF mid 90s work was like 80s AWA, because all the big names from AWA were in WWF.

[dgrblue]

I've always said AWA Martel and 90's WWF Bret Hart had some strong similarities. If you watch Martel work bigger men such as Michael Hayes or Stan Hansen from those days it's very similar to the plucky underdog who fights to hold his own (and then does) which Bret Hart was in the 90's. I'll give the edge to Hart though; when he made his comebacks he looked more intense and believable from where I sit. Also worth noting those two have a very similar mindset to the art of wrestling and what that is which is ironic to this topic considering they were both badly hurt in WCW in what they felt were big men being too stiff, ignoring the art of making it look as real as possible but always on the safe side.

Bret worked stiff because he like the way it looks to fans(more real)