Loss Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Call it unfair if you like, but I always have and always will judge a wrestling company more on their missed opportunities than their successes. Take just about any wrestling company in history and the *chances* they've had to do something special and if they did it even half the time, they'd all be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 So selling out 12 shows a year vs what they were doing in the 80's and Attitude era and what tons of promotions were doing 30 years ago is a sign of success? Talk about empty talking points. What are these territories 30 years ago that were selling out major venues so consistently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I don't blame you for not watching Parv. I myself keep coming back in and out and when I watch it's out of habit. Yes online smart fans bitch a lot. I can only imagine how the internet would have reacted to the Mega Powers explosion given their feelings towards Savage and Hogan in 89. Do I think WWE would be better off pushing the smart darling of the year each year? I'm not sure about that. I don't think that's the point. It's that Vince will NEVER allow anyone that sort of chance again for fear they would leave him. It will be John Cena, who has been neither a huge mainstream success nor a spectacular failure ala Diesel until the day Cena retires or Vince dies. I've long come to deal with that fact. There are a number of fans who do see Vince's refusal to listen to them as proof of his decline but there are a number of thoughtful ones who see it as something more profound than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 So selling out 12 shows a year vs what they were doing in the 80's and Attitude era and what tons of promotions were doing 30 years ago is a sign of success? Talk about empty talking points. What are these territories 30 years ago that were selling out major venues so consistently? Sean, you have to give that point to him it can't be won. More like 35-40 years ago (70s more than 80s), but most of the territories did good steady business hitting 8,000-12,000 gates on their regular big show loops for years. It can't be denied that far fewer people net see live wrestling every week than they did during the height of the territories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 30 years ago as an umbrella for around 30 years ago. I was not specifying December 1984. Crockett Georgia Mid South WCCW Memphis AWA Just off the top of my head were all doing great. If anyone with more knowledge than I would like to add some more, have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 So selling out 12 shows a year vs what they were doing in the 80's and Attitude era and what tons of promotions were doing 30 years ago is a sign of success? Talk about empty talking points. What are these territories 30 years ago that were selling out major venues so consistently? Sean, you have to give that point to him it can't be won. More like 35-40 years ago (70s more than 80s), but most of the territories did good steady business hitting 8,000-12,000 gates on their regular big show loops for years. It can't be denied that far fewer people net see live wrestling every week than they did during the height of the territories. WWE still does 8,000-10,000 on a lot of Mondays and more than that for PPVs. The difference from the old days is that people have picked up on how irrelevant house shows are, and they run two tours to drag down averages. RAWs and PPVs serve the purpose that house shows used to in being where things "matter". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Cesaro is a major point though because he does have the potential to be a major player. The talent is there, the fans were there, and WWE dropped the ball with him. Hearing him talk about Cesaro, the Millennials, and the nature of today's product last night was a clear vision into a man who has lost a grasp of the product he is delivering. Using the, "If he's lost it then why is WWE still making money" argument is empty lip service. WWE is the only major player around, there is no competition, so of course they are going to continue to make money. The fact that they aren't making oodles of money is the real damning evidence against Vince and how out of touch he has become over the last ten years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 And Parv I recall a thread here on PWO which proved that 1983 was actually one of the most successful years for all the territories still around (No Detroit or either CA promotion) in history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Also, the surest way for WWE to avoid "bitching and moaning" is just to put on more good shows and let people who get big pops win more matches than they lose. Why is that so hard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 When things were successful they ran 2-4 house shows a night also. Raw still does around 10K a week that's pretty good. Compare that to the number of places including WWF doing 8-10K 3-5 nights a week 30 years ago and it's a blowaway. And not Buddy Rose's diet either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I don't blame you for not watching Parv. I myself keep coming back in and out and when I watch it's out of habit. Yes online smart fans bitch a lot. I can only imagine how the internet would have reacted to the Mega Powers explosion given their feelings towards Savage and Hogan in 89. Do I think WWE would be better off pushing the smart darling of the year each year? I'm not sure about that. I don't think that's the point. It's that Vince will NEVER allow anyone that sort of chance again for fear they would leave him. It will be John Cena, who has been neither a huge mainstream success nor a spectacular failure ala Diesel until the day Cena retires or Vince dies. I've long come to deal with that fact. There are a number of fans who do see Vince's refusal to listen to them as proof of his decline but there are a number of thoughtful ones who see it as something more profound than that. I honestly believe that the disconnect comes with WHO the fans are that Vince thinks he's listening to vs. who the fans are who post online. Vince in the interview came across as if John Cena, for better or worse, is a place-holder "until the next Austin comes along". For lack of a better analogy, he's Backlund. He also seems like a business calculation. Vince talked about demographics and even went into it a bit. He said that the heart of wrestling is in the blue collar workers -- in the line of the night "Our audience is Americana", but then he quickly double-backed to note all the other groups who watch. Given that he just threw that out there, it's pretty obvious that they know -- WWE know -- that Cena is never getting over with that certain group of vocal male 18-35s from economic background X. He keeps saying he's listening to the fans. Which ones? I'm guessing the ones who spend money on John Cena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Because Vince has NEVER cared what the fans want except when WCW was kicking his ass and he had no choice. In the 80's what Vince wanted and what most of the fanbase wanted just happened to be the same thing so everything was cool then. Vince was the ultimate product of Reagan's America. That's why Loss and it's a sad fact isn't it? No other business seems to have such obvious contempt for its own fans as pro wrestling does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 WWE loves to talk about creating new stars as if it's this complicated thing. Why does it have to be more complicated than this? - Fans start to respond to a wrestler on the undercard - Give wrestler lots of wins and move him up the card I don't think every guy who gets a pop has potential to be a long-term draw, but I don't understand not running with even hints of something special to try to get everything possible out of it. That's why Vince talking about millennials having a fear of failure was so amusing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Listening to the interview I think it's obvious now why Bryan was booked like he was last fall and the beginning of this year. We have the answers now without them being directly touched upon . I think Vince has gotten on board with him to a degree though. And yeah it's anecdotal but the fact that he was pissed off so much at the crowd at the UK tapings shows he still listens to a degree. Of course in all this could be a case of cognitive dissonance where Vince really does believe he is listening to the fans all the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Vince doesn't respond to crowd reactions as much as he responds to data. And that makes him a great promoter in many ways, but it also only assesses things as they currently are and almost completely disregards potential. Live reactions show the potential of something to catch on if they invest in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Vince is so out of touch he doesn't realize he's created the very fear that makes them what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Because Vince has NEVER cared what the fans want except when WCW was kicking his ass and he had no choice. In the 80's what Vince wanted and what most of the fanbase wanted just happened to be the same thing so everything was cool then. Vince was the ultimate product of Reagan's America. That's why Loss and it's a sad fact isn't it? No other business seems to have such obvious contempt for its own fans as pro wrestling does. That's just such an overly harsh way of looking at modern WWE. He eventually gave in and went with Bryan for one of the all-time great moments at Mania. Ambrose and Rollins, two indy guys, headlined a PPV this year and are spectacular performers. My main interest in the next few years of WWE is seeing how high Ambrose can go. I'm grateful that they're willing to pay so much money to Brock because he's had some amazing spectacles. The Survivor Series main event was a lot of fun and featured a big night for Ziggler. The internet used to like Wyatt, so that was a positive for Vince. Rusev is awesome and getting a big push. I just don't see how WWE deserves all of the vitriol it gets in terms of who they're pushing now. I get it, Cesaro should be pushed more. And less Cena. But even Cena worked 4th from top at Mania, worked under Bryan at Extreme Rules, and was only in the SummerSlam main event because Bryan got hurt. And he was an afterthought in the Survivor Series main event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Because Vince has NEVER cared what the fans want except when WCW was kicking his ass and he had no choice. In the 80's what Vince wanted and what most of the fanbase wanted just happened to be the same thing so everything was cool then. You surely can't believe this. There are literally dozens of examples any of us could point to of Vince / WWF/E reacting to the fans. From turning Jake, Savage etc., pulling the plug on Warrior, to recent stuff with Bryan. People will accuse me of having the blinkers on -- I don't, I believe I see this clearly and that it's comments like that ("Vince never listened to the fans), which are truly blinkered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 there is no doubt in my mind that Vince listened more to the crowds in the 80s and 90s (especially here) but don't forget there were less revenue streams then than there are now. He has a bulk of data to look at currently that he didn't have 20/30 years ago. So it kinda makes sense he would listen less today. Still frustrating as a fan though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Vince doesn't respond to crowd reactions as much as he responds to data. And that makes him a great promoter in many ways, but it also only assesses things as they currently are and almost completely disregards potential. Live reactions show the potential of something to catch on if they invest in it. I think that there's now a disconnect between the live fans and the people who WWE see as their core revenue providers. I also think that Vince -- in his drive to "keep up with the times" -- is probably listening to the stats and demographics guys. And making rational, data-driven decisions much more than going on gut instinct. That also came through in the interview. That there is a struggle between his emotional wrestling-fan side and his rational business side. He really didn't feel as personally connected to the current stuff -- he was detached. When he talked about his dad, about taking on Verne, about the attitude era, you could see it in his eyes that he was more personally invested. So I think there's a lot to this Loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Is it me or did anyone else think when Vince came back just before Survivor series he looked quite ill. Certainly looks to have lost a lot of weight anyway. He does look like hes lost alot of weight. Really enjoyed the Austin show could listen to Vince for hours. Shame Vince doesnt do a shoot for Highspots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I don't have some smark utopia vision of what WWE can be in my head. More than anything, I just want them to start elevating more guys to main event status. That's what made 2000 WWF great - oftentimes if you got a big pop one week, you were in the RAW main event the following week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I dunno actually Charles, didn't it devalue the main event? Kane, Big Show, Chris Jericho (list goes on and on) Were they *really* main eventers or upper midcarders who were over and artificially inserted into main events and given world title runs? Serious question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I just want it to not be the same old, same old. I realize the WWE will always be lacking in many areas, but change has to happen at some point and new faces have to be pushed, and remain pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I just want it to not be the same old, same old. I realize the WWE will always be lacking in many areas, but change has to happen at some point and new faces have to be pushed, and remain pushed. TLC's two main events are Cena-Rollins and Ambrose-Wyatt. Three of the four guys in prime spots are relatively new to the main event scene. The plan for Mania is to headline with a guy who's been in the main event of one PPV previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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