When is someone actually carried in a match?

[DMJ]

I just watched Halloween Havoc 95' and there are two pretty clear examples on that show that both fall into the category (or close to it) that Jimmy mentions in the post above.

 

First, DDP vs. Renegade. This is not Renegade's first match, but its the most entertaining one I've ever seen, mostly due to what DDP does - Renegade hits him with a punch, for example, and DDP bumps over the top rope, stumbles over the guardrail, and ends up on the floor of the arena. Back in the ring, there is a noticeable spot when Renegade puts DDP in a headlock and DDP literally walks his way towards the ropes, positioning himself (and Renegade) into the next bump, defying all real logic. If you have the stomach for it (like I said, its actually a pretty entertaining match), there are other moments in the match where DDP is obviously overselling/positioning himself or his opponent to make Renegade look competent.

 

Second, in his first match, The Giant vs. Hulk Hogan in the main event. At one point, Hogan literally grabs The Giant's hand and applies a chokehold to himself in the corner. There's not a whole lot of big spots in this match, so, its basically just Giant clobbering, Hogan selling, Giant clobbering, Hogan selling, leading up to a "Hulk Up" and then one of the all-time most clusterfucked finishes ever, but I'd still consider this a Hogan "carry job" because The Giant was just so, so green and almost noticeably unconfident out there. If you would've told me in 95' that the Giant was going to leave the sport in 3 months, there's nothing in this match that would've made me say "No, he's going to be a main event fixture for the next two decades."

[JerryvonKramer]

I think basing it on the track records of the guys involved outside of the match in question is a mistake. As was said earlier the thread, even a poor or average worker can have a great night every once in a while.

How far do you take this though? Strongbow and Putski?

[Matt Farmer]

In an interview with Steamboat, it may have even been one of those horrible RF Video interviews. He talks about working with Luger, and while he may have allowed Luger to call the match which is Steamboat's MO. He did discuss positioning Luger to work the crowd, and timing of the match. It's easy to allow someone to call the match and still be in control of the match.

 

For example. As a babyface who is selling, and the heel calls a spot to switch the heat or even a hope spot. You as the babyface can simply say "not now" or "wait" or simply give him the office.

 

Steamboat is excellent that way. I've had the pleasure of being in the ring with him and he is very smooth at directing people even when he is not the one calling spots. I saw him work with a clueless Daniel Rodimer and allow Rodimer call everything yet Ricky had him positioned and timed to where it looked halfway decent.

[Ricky Jackson]

Very interesting info. Thanks for sharing man

[shoe]

The way I heard the Luger/Steamer dynamic was their matches at 1st Steamer called and would coach Luger. Go yell at the old lady in the front row as an example. Then Steamer had Luger call his heat. Then eventually he called the match with all the neat stuff Matt mentioned.

[dawho5]

That seems like a really effective way of teaching on the job. I don't like the idea that "being carried" is necessarily a bad thing for the wrestler who was. If you were a young guy in the ring with Steamboat or Flair in the mid 80s and beyond, where is the shame in letting them teach you something about wrestling? The only time I can see this being a problem is if the guy being carried is a 45 year old veteran who just never had the intelligence or ambition to learn ring psychology or how to work a match. The whole idea of having veteran guys work with younger guys is precisely so the younger guy can pick up a few tricks of the trade as they mature.