Where the Big Boys Play #72 - Superbrawl II

[JerryvonKramer]

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-72-superbrawl-ii/

 

 

Chad and Parv head to Milwaukee for this classic card.

 

[5:34] Observer roundup for Feb 92: Kip Allen Frey's new anti-steroid policies, PN News in not being actually black shocker, and contract renewals a-plenty.

 

[1:04:59] Review of Superbrawl II: Play the "drink whenever Parv praises Jesse Ventura" game, Chad comes up with a theory about Steamboat's Ninja, and by the time you've finished counting up the snowflakes for this one you'll be more out of breath than Luger in the main event.

 

[2:47:26] End of show awards

[PeteF3]

Just a scheduling heads-up: that June Clash is to my knowledge the only Clash not to air live. It was taped before Beach Blast but aired afterward. For continuity purposes you may want to do Beach Blast first, since that was how it was originally intended to be viewed.

[Matt D]

Quick comments as I heard the first 30 on my way into work:

 

I remember Sherri pretty fondly with Dibiase probably because 91 was my sweet spot as a kid fan. She made a good foil for Piper in crutches and I thought the black/gold look was one of her better ones.

 

That said I always thought Meltzer was just trying to put pieces together with the Shawn/Ted team based off of the Sherri segment on the taping. Shawn turned to be a singles guy. I do agree the manager cam match was terrible, especially as it's the only match from the Matador/Dibiase feud we have.

 

Announcers: Larry had spent a chunk of 91 doing Pro (or at least Pro Chicago) with Tony, but stopped when the Enforcers team started. Scotty did announce both in Portland and off and on in Global. He was fairly smarky which went a lot farther with sheet readers in 91 than it would now. I'd actually liken him to a Striker who didn't take himself nearly so seriously. I like Paul E back there as a way to get over the heels. One role could have enhanced the other.

 

Rude: wasn't coming back unless Vince wanted him to screw WCW since he was essential. I would have liked to see the Bossman feud payoff at least. If what you guys mentioned Perfect in 93 stands out due to their personal connection. Even as a team in 94 as that would have been a way to protect Perfect after the turn on Luger that didn't actually lead to matches. He didn't have a program with Hogan because he was too stiff during those few times they did work. He apparently didn't like money. Therefore it's more likely he would have jumped back in 94/95.

[PeteF3]

The team would have been fine, but I don't get why you'd break up the Rockers, give Shawn a gimmick makeover, and immediately throw him back into a tag team.

[shoe]

Now boys didn't Teddy Long manage Johnny B Badd starting in 91?

[The Chief]

FWIW, Teddy Long was allegedly a terrible ref too. I guess a lot of guys on the WWE roster around 1999-2001 complained because he was always missing things and getting in the way of stuff.

[soup23]

Your right Pete, I ignored teddy based on how pretty badd was

[thebrainfollower]

So you asked for people's take on the whole Jesse-JR thing. Here was my take on KM a year or so back.

 

I just watched Superbrawl II and the reason is painfully simple. Jim Ross won't talk to Jesse. Jesse will make observations calling for a reply all the time "frequently saying hey ross or what about this jim Ross" and never, not ONCE does he get a reply. I've seen a good amount of Ross's 87-91 stuff and while he is a more communicative with Jim Cornette and Michael Hayes as examples, this seems to be something he is just awful at in general. He never understand that IMO, the best commentary is a conversation, not boring play by play and nothing else. The better PBP men, Gorilla, Tony, I would include Vince, got this and always talk to their partners. Jim Ross is in a world of his own, going, off about college football backgrounds (hey Ross I wanna watch WRESTLING you bleepity bleep, I felt like saying as a young viewer) for most of the time and refusing to acknowledge their might be a better way of doing his job until Vince McMahon fired him again and again.

 

Now that's what I said THEN but looking back I've heard interviews with Ross where he admits he was jealous about Jesse's contract and didn't really want to work with him. I'd say that's a lot of the problem too because he does work better with Tony, Cornette and Hayes. So in some ways his behavior was WORSE than I thought because it's not "didn't know how" it's "didn't want to, and was unprofessional enough not to as a result". People talk about Bischoff firing JR out of jealousy or his being too Southern, but if I had been in charge and heard Superbrawl II he'd have gotten a "last warning" talk about growing up.

[thebrainfollower]

I guess K. Allen didn't see the problem and Watts would have side with JR anyway.

[JerryvonKramer]

Excellent brainfollower!

 

1-0 Parv. Take that Campbell!

[Matt D]

Ross is really sort of terrible when it comes to his partners.

 

The big difference between Tony and Jesse is that he can ignore Tony and he can't ignore Jesse nearly as easily. Jesse keeps him honest in a way Tony never could and keeps him from just babbling on about college football. On the other hand, when he ignores Jesse it becomes way more noticeable than when he ignores Tony (which I hadn't realized until I really made a close listen). Him ignoring Jesse takes away from the match. Him ignoring Tony just lets both of them do their thing. In Tony's case, the thing was color that let him shine, because he'd try to impose logic on the match. Sometimes he'd overreach but ultimately, it would be in a likable way. It's only painful when he mentions Ross by name and Ross just ignores him.

 

At the Clash, during the main event, I don't think Ross was prepared for Jesse, so he had to engage him, realizing that he'd look bad otherwise. At SuperBrawl, he didn't open himself up to Jesse's lines as much so he could disregard him more. Ross was nothing if not an expert at preparation.

[JerryvonKramer]

2-0 Parv

 

[thebrainfollower]

Even if, for some bizarre reason, you think Jesse is at fault, there's absolutely nothing reasonable he could have done to fix the situation. What are his options? He can just shut up and say nothing at all I guess or he could have pulled Jim Ross aside and tried to talk to him about it. I'd love to ask Jesse about this but I suspect it's a unimportant blip in his life he wouldn't remember in the slightest unless you sat down with him and watched the show.

 

I guess I would have gotten annoyed enough to actually ask, point blank on the air to JR "Whats' your problem and why won't you respond to anything I say". I've had actors on stage who've refused to interact with their colleagues and I've stopped a rehearsal to remind them in front of the cast to stop pulling that stuff. But then I'm kind of a jerk.

[soup23]

I am not excusing Ross for at times going into business for himself. The Jesse/Ross team is not one I am fond of. However, my point is that I think Jesse at times gets way too much of a pass for putting over his agenda or pointing out inefficiencies. He did it at Vince and Vince sounded dumb hence people like Parv championing cheering for Jesse as a kid and by proxy the heels. I don't think that is a successful approach overall.

 

I really disagree with Ross not working well with partners. Him with Tony and Hayes are on my short list of favorite announce teams ever. Even the early attitude years of him/Lawler have a bevy of great stuff that has held up going back to watch the 1998 and 1999 stuff.

[Matt D]

I really disagree with Ross not working well with partners. Him with Tony and Hayes are on my short list of favorite announce teams ever. Even the early attitude years of him/Lawler have a bevy of great stuff that has held up going back to watch the 1998 and 1999 stuff.

 

So you feel like Ross and Tony worked well with each other and didn't just get out of each other's way?

[soup23]

I think Tony and Ross worked wonderfully together. Tony took on more of a color style roll but they were able to compliment each other and get over strategies for the matches. Havoc 91 may honestly be one of my favorite commented PPV's in history.

[JerryvonKramer]

I am not excusing Ross for at times going into business for himself. The Jesse/Ross team is not one I am fond of. However, my point is that I think Jesse at times gets way too much of a pass for putting over his agenda or pointing out inefficiencies. He did it at Vince and Vince sounded dumb hence people like Parv championing cheering for Jesse as a kid and by proxy the heels. I don't think that is a successful approach overall.

Reason I think you're wrong is that I was literally one-in-a-thousand sort of kid -- most kids' favourite wrestlers were babyfaces you were meant to cheer, my faves were guys like Ted DiBiase and IRS. Vast majority of fans were not heel fans.

 

Vince didn't come across as dumb, because he was voicing what the majority of the audience were supposedly thinking. Ventura's logic was often logic twisted and distorted through his lens of dastardly evil anyway. What made Jesse so effective, though, is that he would temper his comments by not being ridiculously over-the-top one-sided and by giving credit to babyfaces now and then. He was very good at giving off at least the ostensible appearance of being vaguely impartial, whereas a Bobby Heenan was just completely 100% transparently pro-heel to the point where he had no credibility (in kayfabe terms). So Jesse was able to generate (kayfabe) credibility while also being pretty pro-heel most of the time. Vince was a total over-the-top-loon mark for Hogan on occasion, but don't forget that the vast majority of the time babyfaces were in the right (morally) so Vince de facto had the advantage of being right in those arguments (since it was Jesse twisting things). We remember the times when Jesse was actually right, but most of the time if you follow any of the arguments through Vince (and the babyface) were actually "right" (kayfabe-wise, morally, whatever).

 

But also don't forget Jesse's team with Monsoon either -- Gorilla would also react to Jesse's arguments. And he wasn't as OTT as Vince, and he never came across as "dumb".

[thebrainfollower]

JR works great with Hayes and he does work well with Lawler at times. It strikes me as regional prejudice. If you're Southern, he'll work with you. If you aren't he won't. But somehow that's okay in his mind but being fired for "being too Southern" is wrong.

 

As for Tony he doesn't work well WITH him. Tony works well in spite of him, because, being used to being a solo play by play man, Tony can just tell his own narrative and ignore JR as much as JR annoys him. With Jesse there's not much more he can do.

 

Listen to JR and Heenan in their one or two Coliseum Videos. People have credited it being good but it's really not. JR sounds genuinely angry and annoyed at Heenan all the time. When Heenan tries to really sell Hart/Savage vs. Flair/Michaels as being a great match because he's realized that's the ONLY way he can get JR to talk he just replies in a patronizing arrogant tone "it's a great one isn't it". No wonder this joker got canned a bunch of times.

 

Sorry I've just never been on board with JR as a great commentator, because he plays these annoying games based on how happy he is to be with partner X. Anyone "great" at their job doesn't appear unprofessional every time they are unhappy. He's like the Steiner Brother of announcers.

[JerryvonKramer]

So where do other people go on Rude vs Steamer on this one, because I was blown away by it this time and thought it was a MOTYC at ****3/4, legit great match.

[Ricky Jackson]

I watched it the other night for the first time after listening to the show and thought it was a very good match, but execution of the finish (I didn't buy the ref having his back turned for the interference spot) knocked it down a notch for me.

[soup23]

 

I am not excusing Ross for at times going into business for himself. The Jesse/Ross team is not one I am fond of. However, my point is that I think Jesse at times gets way too much of a pass for putting over his agenda or pointing out inefficiencies. He did it at Vince and Vince sounded dumb hence people like Parv championing cheering for Jesse as a kid and by proxy the heels. I don't think that is a successful approach overall.

Reason I think you're wrong is that I was literally one-in-a-thousand sort of kid -- most kids' favourite wrestlers were babyfaces you were meant to cheer, my faves were guys like Ted DiBiase and IRS. Vast majority of fans were not heel fans.

 

Vince didn't come across as dumb, because he was voicing what the majority of the audience were supposedly thinking. Ventura's logic was often logic twisted and distorted through his lens of dastardly evil anyway. What made Jesse so effective, though, is that he would temper his comments by not being ridiculously over-the-top one-sided and by giving credit to babyfaces now and then. He was very good at giving off at least the ostensible appearance of being vaguely impartial, whereas a Bobby Heenan was just completely 100% transparently pro-heel to the point where he had no credibility (in kayfabe terms). So Jesse was able to generate (kayfabe) credibility while also being pretty pro-heel most of the time. Vince was a total over-the-top-loon mark for Hogan on occasion, but don't forget that the vast majority of the time babyfaces were in the right (morally) so Vince de facto had the advantage of being right in those arguments (since it was Jesse twisting things). We remember the times when Jesse was actually right, but most of the time if you follow any of the arguments through Vince (and the babyface) were actually "right" (kayfabe-wise, morally, whatever).

 

But also don't forget Jesse's team with Monsoon either -- Gorilla would also react to Jesse's arguments. And he wasn't as OTT as Vince, and he never came across as "dumb".

 

I think you are overplaying the heel line. Even so, maybe I am the 1 in a 1000 kid on the other side but I could not stand Tito and even Steamboat to a degree as a kid based on Jesse's commentary essentially making them jobbers. You are someone that champions Tito stuff now. Don't you think his lessened internet reputation is a direct result at times of most people who became fans after 1985 knowing him only as Chico the jobber instead of a former IC champion that acomplished a lot early on in his WWF career? Part of that is Monsoons fault but Jesse running him down doesn't get a pass outright.

 

Gorilla came across as "dumb" all the time. There is multiple instances where Gorilla gets painted into a double standard argument with Jesse where he condones the heels cheating after praising faces. Him saying the faces are having fun really comes to mind off hand as a clear straw man argument he is forced to make because Jesse is forcing the issue and calling him out.

[JerryvonKramer]

Did Jesse really make Tito or Steamer seem like jobbers? This seems like a very strong claim to me. I thought they always referenced Tito as a former IC champ.

 

I thought Jesse generally did a good job of talking guys up while picking up on little qualms he had with them. He didn't bury anyone. But I'd have to go back and watch some Superstars to make a real assessment, because I'm going on old memories.

 

He certainly didn't bury anyone on this show.

[Matt D]

I kind of want to do a close listen on Gorilla/Jesse, because you think, by their nature, they'd almost cancel each other out. It's Vince I find sort of embarrassing with Jesse, because when Ventura would point something out, Vince would squirm and go "Well, I don't know about that..."

[soup23]

Randomly put in Strike Force Superstars into youtube and this was the first result.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUjpZ-hBpyk

 

 

One minute in and we get Chico name drop and a saying about him staying off the microphone. 30 seconds later, another mention about him cheating. We get another mention about Strike Force needing to do legal tags. He does admit that Hitman makes a mistake in a nice piece of color work. "I can't believe Santana is going to exchange with Neidhart." The heels take over now and we havent had any praise for either member of Strike Force in this match from Jesse so far. Brillant tag team wrestling is the call when the Hart's cheat. Good praise on how smart Neidhart was keeping Morella tied up while Hart hammered away on the outside. Outrage when Martel comes in to break up a pin. Bruno defends the action. Hart comes in illegally and we get a "one a piece" call from Jesse. "I bet Chico wish he was back on the microphone right now." Tito kicks out and we get a claim that Morella counted slow. Martel tries to come in and Jesse points out how dumb that is as Tito gets more damage done. Again, not one positive comment for Strike Force besides their speed before the bell rung. Now we get a mention about how Bruno would stoop to any level to keep his title when he was a competitor. Hot tag made to Martel to a big pop. Martel does a great house of fire sequence. Hart breaks up a crossbody and Vince is outraged with that. Double scoop slam and mention from Jesse of a double team. Martel wins with the Boston Crab and Jesse only has to say that it took a double team to do it.

 

Again, this was a pure heel commenting job by Jesse. In the ten minute match, we didn't get one bit of praise for what the faces did and this was their crowning moment of winning the tag titles. As a heel commenting job, it wasn't bad but I do think this match helps the case that Jesse wasn't near as "fair" to face opponents at giving praise as is claimed at times.

[Matt D]

Close listening to announcers is the wave of the future.

 

Also a sign that we're picking apart almost everything there is to pick apart in wrestling.