Who has the trifecta as a HOF candidate?

[Matt D]

I'm still wrapping my head around the idea of a booker as someone who actually "books talent," which I realize is a personal failing on my fault for not making that connection for so long. I always used to see a booker bringing in talent as cronyism and there's something to that, but mostly, it's the other way around. During the territory days, the talent that a booker could book through personal connections to supplement who the promoter might be able to book through professional connections was probably more important than the actual storylines he used.

[Dylan Waco]

Heyman is probably in the HOF for promoting/booking combo, but I don't see how he's either individually. Closer as a booker, but promoter? That is beyond a stretch. As a manager I don't see it either. Artistically I have loved him at times, but I'm not sure his resume as a manager is better than Sherri Martel and no one is clamoring for her as a manager.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm still wrapping my head around the idea of a booker as someone who actually "books talent," which I realize is a personal failing on my fault for not making that connection for so long. I always used to see a booker bringing in talent as cronyism and there's something to that, but mostly, it's the other way around. During the territory days, the talent that a booker could book through personal connections to supplement who the promoter might be able to book through professional connections was probably more important than the actual storylines he used.

Seems like it was a combination of things, that bookers and promoters would be on the phone to each other all the time. Funk talks about ringing Eddie Graham to send Bob Backlund from Amarillo down to Floria, Vince Sr rang Graham when he was looking for a new champ and was sent Bob. That's promoters dealing talent.

 

To a certain extent bookers would have a roster of home-steading guys to work with and the promoter might bring in guys for runs and the booker had to make do with it, but then you'd also have bookers bringing in their own crews / cliques to run whatever angles.

 

It's more visible in the 80s in places like Georgia, Crockett, and Mid-South when we know who was booking exactly and when, and where that person was different from the promoter. Having Buck Robley as a booker dramatically increases the chances of Bruiser Brody coming in for a run (for example). Dusty's going to bring in Florida guys. Dory is going to use West Texas guys. Robert Fuller guys from South East and so on. No hard and fast rule, but it's going to be more likely if there's an existing connection there.

 

That's why when we were watching that Amarillo show recently and Dick Murdoch was hyping San Francisco talent like Pat Patterson and Dean Ho at their upcoming show, I was a bit dubious as to whether that actually happened. Not only because he seemed unsure, but also because that's a weird connection. I'd have believed him more readily if it had been Stan Hansen or Dusty, say, just because those guys were friends.

 

At other times I get the impression that certain guys were doing what we'd call now "talent relations" (Jim Ross's old job) rather than actual booking. Grizzly Smith seemed to do this job for Watts while other guys like Ernie Ladd did the actual creative booking end of things.

[Matt D]

And then there's the idea of being a road agent too. AND the idea of some guys promoting let's say one town in a territory.

[WingedEagle]

I've talked extensively about this subject with Buddy Rose who was in Verne's 73' camp. He always praised Verne as a trainer and that he was there nearly every day and if the boys were doing a work out he would join in. He was very hands on, but he wasn't able to be there everyday. During his camp he would have Billy Robinson, Lars Anderson and Iron Sheik helping out.

 

As for Stu Hart, I've heard just the opposite in that he was less hands on and relied on his Japanese boys to do most of the day to day training. Of course he would go down and stretch the boys, but he wasn't showing them how to bump.

 

Wrestling training was MUCH different in the 60's, 70's and 80's than it is today. Most trainers did not expose the business, so there was no talk or hint of training that had anything to do with learning about psychology, or working. You were taught how to bump in most cases (but not all) and how to get in and out of holds. You learned how to work once you got on the road.

 

Rose and Slaughter both told me they were never smartened up, and there were no clues that the business was a work until the day of their first match together. Buddy had been around the business for a long time helping with the ring truck and as an usher and hanger on and knew something was up, even knew the boys talked to each other while wrestling. But didn't truly know until that day.

 

But from talking with many I would say Verne deserves more credit for training than Stu Hart.

 

Now on the subject of trifecta besides both Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba who should get as much or more credit than a Stu Hart because they DID go to the dojo and workout a lot. And while they were not full time dojo trainers their presence was there often and when the young boys went on the road they often worked out with them. Both Baba and Inoki would take one of the young boys and that young boy was now their personal servant.

 

To me one of the top guys who are that trifecta would be Rikidozan. He was definitely a Hall of Fame wrestler and promoter, and just look at the list of his students that include both Baba and Inoki,

 

Really terrific info here. Great to hear this fleshed out and only a shame more details at this level aren't available throughout history.

[...TG]

I've talked extensively about this subject with Buddy Rose who was in Verne's 73' camp. He always praised Verne as a trainer and that he was there nearly every day and if the boys were doing a work out he would join in. He was very hands on, but he wasn't able to be there everyday. During his camp he would have Billy Robinson, Lars Anderson and Iron Sheik helping out.

 

As for Stu Hart, I've heard just the opposite in that he was less hands on and relied on his Japanese boys to do most of the day to day training. Of course he would go down and stretch the boys, but he wasn't showing them how to bump.

 

Wrestling training was MUCH different in the 60's, 70's and 80's than it is today. Most trainers did not expose the business, so there was no talk or hint of training that had anything to do with learning about psychology, or working. You were taught how to bump in most cases (but not all) and how to get in and out of holds. You learned how to work once you got on the road.

 

Rose and Slaughter both told me they were never smartened up, and there were no clues that the business was a work until the day of their first match together. Buddy had been around the business for a long time helping with the ring truck and as an usher and hanger on and knew something was up, even knew the boys talked to each other while wrestling. But didn't truly know until that day.

 

That's amazing, and from the distance of 40 years it seems like an insane way of teaching an art form (or whatever the hell pro wrestling is). Even though it certainly worked in many cases, I do wonder how many potentially great performers this method turned away, or didn't allow to develop.

[Indikator]

Many, of course. But it reduced the risk of having wrestlers with a good pedigree who leave the business after a couple of years. You will be left with guys who will have to wrestle until they drop dead (so no wasted pushes), who more often than not have an unhealthy lifestyle and will because of all these things not turn away from the business and expose it nonchalantly. The aspect of hazing the rookies helps making the wrestling community tightly knit

[jdw]

Rose and Slaughter both told me they were never smartened up, and there were no clues that the business was a work until the day of their first match together. Buddy had been around the business for a long time helping with the ring truck and as an usher and hanger on and knew something was up, even knew the boys talked to each other while wrestling. But didn't truly know until that day.

 

 

Whenever a wrestler says that, the bullshit detector should go off.

 

10 year old fans in the 70s knew wrestling was a work. You honestly believe that guys training learning how to throw Fake Punches and take Bumps didn't know it was a work? That they spent their entire training camps doing shoot matches / sparing?

 

Doesn't matter how many times people say it, it's still bullshit. Just as much as it's bullshit when Thesz talked about how people wrestled in his day. Then we got enough tape, and there's Lou bitching & selling & begging off for Verne.

[jdw]

Yeah because a patronising break down of all of the different functions in wrestling and how they all actually just two broad types is exactly what this thread needed.

 

Who's being childish? I ask about trifecta candidates, that passive-aggressive boring fuck's instincts are to move to try to deny the theoretical possibllity of a trifecta candidate by reducing the categories to just two. Brilliant end of conversation. Great contribution! Just like your post there.

 

It's a disguised form of trolling.

 

You're above your average: three shots.

 

I'm still pulling a Blutarsky for the year at 0.0.

 

[jdw]

I've talked extensively about this subject with Buddy Rose who was in Verne's 73' camp. He always praised Verne as a trainer and that he was there nearly every day and if the boys were doing a work out he would join in. He was very hands on, but he wasn't able to be there everyday. During his camp he would have Billy Robinson, Lars Anderson and Iron Sheik helping out

 

Verne in 1973 being heavily involved is pretty reasonable. His workload was extremely light that year.

 

Robinson was very active: pretty much as active as Bock & Stevens were as tag champs, which is as active as anyone was in that period.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Rose and Slaughter both told me they were never smartened up, and there were no clues that the business was a work until the day of their first match together. Buddy had been around the business for a long time helping with the ring truck and as an usher and hanger on and knew something was up, even knew the boys talked to each other while wrestling. But didn't truly know until that day.

 

 

Whenever a wrestler says that, the bullshit detector should go off.

 

10 year old fans in the 70s knew wrestling was a work. You honestly believe that guys training learning how to throw Fake Punches and take Bumps didn't know it was a work? That they spent their entire training camps doing shoot matches / sparing?

 

Doesn't matter how many times people say it, it's still bullshit. Just as much as it's bullshit when Thesz talked about how people wrestled in his day. Then we got enough tape, and there's Lou bitching & selling & begging off for Verne.

It's a different topic but the extent of said bitching is wildly overstated.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30010-different-styles-of-the-nwa-touring-champ/?view=getnewpost

[MutaMark]

Bit of a conversational 1 but in the future (say 5-10years maybe?) But could u say that HHH would fit that trifecta? Just really the trainer aspect is questionable but his NXT work could be part of that? Oh and Shawn Michaels? He train Daniel Bryan, Kendrick among others. And I say he was a booker of sorts for himself and his pals, no?Ok that maybe one was a stretch.

[Matt Farmer]

 

Rose and Slaughter both told me they were never smartened up, and there were no clues that the business was a work until the day of their first match together. Buddy had been around the business for a long time helping with the ring truck and as an usher and hanger on and knew something was up, even knew the boys talked to each other while wrestling. But didn't truly know until that day.

 

 

Whenever a wrestler says that, the bullshit detector should go off.

 

10 year old fans in the 70s knew wrestling was a work. You honestly believe that guys training learning how to throw Fake Punches and take Bumps didn't know it was a work? That they spent their entire training camps doing shoot matches / sparing?

 

Doesn't matter how many times people say it, it's still bullshit. Just as much as it's bullshit when Thesz talked about how people wrestled in his day. Then we got enough tape, and there's Lou bitching & selling & begging off for Verne.

 

First off no trainer during the 70's is going to teach someone how to throw a fake punch. They did not expose that side of the business to green horns. They didn't teach guys how to run the ropes or take a turn buckle or taking bumps out of the ring, that was not something that was taught. Those were things you learned on the road.

 

You were taught to bump, just the same as you are taught to take falls in Judo. Anyone will tell you that.

 

Talk to anyone who had some old style training, when teaching holds they would go light, just like they do when you are learning technique in amateur wrestling or today's MMA. You can't learn that technique if it's done full speed.

 

They did not teach selling, they did not teach begging off or working they simply taught holds. The most advance technique you would learn is something like an arm drag, a hiptoss and maybe a body slam.

 

When it came time for your match you were instructed to do exactly what you learned and trained to do. That's why matches between two rookies during that time were extremely basic and almost just an exchange in holds.

 

Just like when you were ten you may have know it was fake, but you didn't know how it was fake. I know when I was trained I knew it was fake and how some things were done but didn't know the extent of how it was worked and that was in the early 90's.

 

Rose told me he knew it was a work, but didn't know how it was worked. But those trainers that trained wrestlers during that era were very guarded in what was trained. They told you just enough to get by, and everything else was learned over time. And you were taught things when you gained some trust from the boys.

[jdw]

 

First off no trainer during the 70's is going to teach someone how to throw a fake punch. They did not expose that side of the business to green horns. They didn't teach guys how to run the ropes or take a turn buckle or taking bumps out of the ring, that was not something that was taught. Those were things you learned on the road.

 

 

I just don't buy that. The green horns have seen the pros work. They know they throw punches. They know they're fake.

 

I also doubt that they aren't taught to throw a punch before their first match, or even to sell a punch before their first match.

 

You were taught to bump, just the same as you are taught to take falls in Judo. Anyone will tell you that.

 

 

Wrestling bumps aren't really judo falls. You're picked up and slammed, not "thrown". They didn't teach a wrestling 101 spot before they actually got in the ring for their first match?

 

 

Talk to anyone who had some old style training, when teaching holds they would go light, just like they do when you are learning technique in amateur wrestling or today's MMA. You can't learn that technique if it's done full speed.

 

 

"Here's how I pick you up and slam you. I'm going to do this real gentle so you can learn, but in a match we're going to slam the shit out of you."

 

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

They did not teach selling, they did not teach begging off or working they simply taught holds. The most advance technique you would learn is something like an arm drag, a hiptoss and maybe a body slam.

 

 

Arm drags, hiptosses and slam are all faker than shit in pro wrestling. We all know that. Even cool ones like Steamer against Savage.

 

 

When it came time for your match you were instructed to do exactly what you learned and trained to do. That's why matches between two rookies during that time were extremely basic and almost just an exchange in holds.

 

 

Exchange holds. Slam. Sell. Sure it's boring, but it's also faker than fake from the start.

 

 

Just like when you were ten you may have know it was fake, but you didn't know how it was fake. I know when I was trained I knew it was fake and how some things were done but didn't know the extent of how it was worked and that was in the early 90's.

 

 

At 10 I knew generally how it was done: they didn't punch each other in the face like George Foreman hit Joe Fraizer in the face.

 

If I really cared to study it, it wouldn't have been hard to see how they missed the punches, or how some of them liked to stomp the mat to give the "sound" while others like to smack themselves to give a nice meaty sound, or how the guy getting hit would snap his head back. How easy would it have been to see stuff? It's the exact same thing that I did when watching the things I cared about. As a baseball fan and player, I'd watch how the 2B would phantom touch the base, avoid the base runner, side arm to 1B if needed. I'd see how fielders would "look the runner back". I'd study how to position yourself for relay throws, how to "back up" throws, etc. This was all stuff before I was coached by some idiot Little League coach who faked his way through fundamentals. Some of it my dad would point out to me, but most of it would be stuff that I would pick up because he pushed me to look at stuff, pick up things, and then come to him to test out the thinking.

 

In hoops, I didn't do a "set shot" like other kids often did. Why? Because the pros and college players shot above their heads with wrist action. As soon as I could, that's what I practiced.

 

Football throwing a spiral? Watch and practice.

 

Basically were to believe that Pro Wrestling in Training are the Dumbest Mother Fuckers In The World because they can't see the wrestling is Fake (as people had since the 1880s if not earlier) or figure out some of the most basic Fakiness.

 

I don't buy it. Never have.

 

Rose told me he knew it was a work, but didn't know how it was worked. But those trainers that trained wrestlers during that era were very guarded in what was trained. They told you just enough to get by, and everything else was learned over time. And you were taught things when you gained some trust from the boys.

 

 

I'm not saying that on the first day they teach you how to get thrown off the top like Ric Flair, or how to get shoved by the ref and bump like Flair.

 

But if Buddy knew it was a work, he certainly knew *how* it was worked before his debut.

 

Over time "on the road" he may have learned stuff like how to work the crowd. But even that is easy to see even before you're working:

 

"Shut up, Fatboy!"

-Ric Flair

 

 

 

 

You watched Flair or Hogan before you trained, Matt. You knew how they worked the crowd. Wrestling in the 80s wasn't any more advanced that it was in the 70s in that regards. Trainees were any dumber in the 70s that you were watching wrestling in the 80s.

[jdw]

 

It's a different topic but the extent of said bitching is wildly overstated.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30010-different-styles-of-the-nwa-touring-champ/?view=getnewpost

 

 

It's a different level of bitching and stooging. That's not the same as an absence of bitching and stooging, which is what Lou would have to believe when he ripped Race and Flair. Lou invented NWA Champ style long before those guys. The reality is also that it was invented before Lou. Old timers just don't want to admit it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Great, we're back to there was never any such thing as kayfabe going back to the 1880s again.

 

Another thread destroyed.

[MoS]

Great, we're back to there was never any such thing as kayfabe going back to the 1880s again.

 

Another thread destroyed.

Well, now that it is destroyed, and people are talking about it, by sheer co-incidence, I was going through an old thread and I found this - http://wrestlingperspective.com/working.html

 

Not arguing for or against kayfabe, but that site is fascinating.

[Indikator]

It's still better than "Let's apply JCP 198X logic to everything that ever happened" like in the touring world champ thread (Stooging Thesz, jeez)

 

To me jdw and Farmer make good contributions looking at a matter from different angles. They can even contradict, it wouldn't make any one of said points illogical.

[jdw]

Great, we're back to there was never any such thing as kayfabe going back to the 1880s again.

 

 

 

No one said there wasn't kayfabe.

 

You seem to think that Kayfabe means that people couldn't watch pro wrestling and figure out it was fake. The reality is that people saw it as fake all the way back to the 1800s. The link MoS points to gives a host of articles showing that. People who, back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, researched wrestling in the late 1800s through the 1930s in the old school fashion (microfilm at libraries) ran across articles like that all the time. My favorite quote on it of all-time was this one from and on Jack Curley:

 

THE DETROIT FREE PRESS, April 27, 1936 by Jack Miley:

"I am merely a purveyor of entertainment." The bland inscrutable Curley replies when someone asks him if his dodge is on the square. In all the years I’ve known him, I’ve never heard him say his pitch was a phoney, nor have I heard him claim it was the Mc Coy. And I’ve never bothered to inquire, since I know what the response would be. It is like asking someone, "Do you still beat your mother-in-law? Answer "yes" or "no".

 

Probably half the folk who attend the Curley carnivals are hep to the hooligans who entertain them. The other 50 per cent of the spectators - the foreign born, the confirmed rassling addicts and such - are equally certain they are witnessing the genuine article. That has been the secret of Curley’s success. He satisfies the scoffers and the believers too. He has made rassling a state of mind. It is everyone to his own opinion and nobody gets hurt - including the athletes.

 

 

It was so awesome of an excerpt that when Yohe came across it and shared it with me while he was working on his Curley bio, I hammered him often to make sure he included it. When editing it, we ended up using it at the end as it's the perfect summary of not just the great promoter, but the business.

[jdw]

It's still better than "Let's apply JCP 198X logic to everything that ever happened" like in the touring world champ thread (Stooging Thesz, jeez)

 

I like to throw the term "stooging" at Thesz because Lou himself was such an utter asshole to the wrestlers who came after him (and frankly concurrent to him) about their performing. So when Lou can be found to be begging off, it's a great karmic Fuck You to Lou to point it out.

 

I honestly don't care if it pisses off other fans, since they're not the target of it. Well... if it pissed off old Lou Fanboys like some of the folks on the Thesz Board who also slagged "modern wrestling" relative to Lou, that was also pretty fun to do as well.

 

80s JCP doesn't have anything to do with it, other than Flair (JCP) and Race (not JCP) being a pair of favorite targets of Lou.

[JerryvonKramer]

So Verne: the only trifecta candidate?

[Matt Farmer]

 

 

First off no trainer during the 70's is going to teach someone how to throw a fake punch. They did not expose that side of the business to green horns. They didn't teach guys how to run the ropes or take a turn buckle or taking bumps out of the ring, that was not something that was taught. Those were things you learned on the road.

 

 

I just don't buy that. The green horns have seen the pros work. They know they throw punches. They know they're fake.

 

I also doubt that they aren't taught to throw a punch before their first match, or even to sell a punch before their first match.

 

You were taught to bump, just the same as you are taught to take falls in Judo. Anyone will tell you that.

 

 

Wrestling bumps aren't really judo falls. You're picked up and slammed, not "thrown". They didn't teach a wrestling 101 spot before they actually got in the ring for their first match?

 

 

Talk to anyone who had some old style training, when teaching holds they would go light, just like they do when you are learning technique in amateur wrestling or today's MMA. You can't learn that technique if it's done full speed.

 

 

"Here's how I pick you up and slam you. I'm going to do this real gentle so you can learn, but in a match we're going to slam the shit out of you."

 

 

 

 

Seriously?

 

They did not teach selling, they did not teach begging off or working they simply taught holds. The most advance technique you would learn is something like an arm drag, a hiptoss and maybe a body slam.

 

 

Arm drags, hiptosses and slam are all faker than shit in pro wrestling. We all know that. Even cool ones like Steamer against Savage.

 

 

When it came time for your match you were instructed to do exactly what you learned and trained to do. That's why matches between two rookies during that time were extremely basic and almost just an exchange in holds.

 

 

Exchange holds. Slam. Sell. Sure it's boring, but it's also faker than fake from the start.

 

 

Just like when you were ten you may have know it was fake, but you didn't know how it was fake. I know when I was trained I knew it was fake and how some things were done but didn't know the extent of how it was worked and that was in the early 90's.

 

 

At 10 I knew generally how it was done: they didn't punch each other in the face like George Foreman hit Joe Fraizer in the face.

 

If I really cared to study it, it wouldn't have been hard to see how they missed the punches, or how some of them liked to stomp the mat to give the "sound" while others like to smack themselves to give a nice meaty sound, or how the guy getting hit would snap his head back. How easy would it have been to see stuff? It's the exact same thing that I did when watching the things I cared about. As a baseball fan and player, I'd watch how the 2B would phantom touch the base, avoid the base runner, side arm to 1B if needed. I'd see how fielders would "look the runner back". I'd study how to position yourself for relay throws, how to "back up" throws, etc. This was all stuff before I was coached by some idiot Little League coach who faked his way through fundamentals. Some of it my dad would point out to me, but most of it would be stuff that I would pick up because he pushed me to look at stuff, pick up things, and then come to him to test out the thinking.

 

In hoops, I didn't do a "set shot" like other kids often did. Why? Because the pros and college players shot above their heads with wrist action. As soon as I could, that's what I practiced.

 

Football throwing a spiral? Watch and practice.

 

Basically were to believe that Pro Wrestling in Training are the Dumbest Mother Fuckers In The World because they can't see the wrestling is Fake (as people had since the 1880s if not earlier) or figure out some of the most basic Fakiness.

 

I don't buy it. Never have.

 

Rose told me he knew it was a work, but didn't know how it was worked. But those trainers that trained wrestlers during that era were very guarded in what was trained. They told you just enough to get by, and everything else was learned over time. And you were taught things when you gained some trust from the boys.

 

 

I'm not saying that on the first day they teach you how to get thrown off the top like Ric Flair, or how to get shoved by the ref and bump like Flair.

 

But if Buddy knew it was a work, he certainly knew *how* it was worked before his debut.

 

Over time "on the road" he may have learned stuff like how to work the crowd. But even that is easy to see even before you're working:

 

"Shut up, Fatboy!"

-Ric Flair

 

 

 

 

You watched Flair or Hogan before you trained, Matt. You knew how they worked the crowd. Wrestling in the 80s wasn't any more advanced that it was in the 70s in that regards. Trainees were any dumber in the 70s that you were watching wrestling in the 80s.

 

Never did I say they didn't know it was a work.

 

You can buy it or not. They weren't training guys how to throw fake punches. Hell they weren't even teaching advance things like running the ropes of ring placement.

 

Training was very simple by design. You learned on the road.

 

It's okay to be cynical, being around wrestling for so long does that to you. But it's the truth.

[Strand Peanut]

Yeah because a patronising break down of all of the different functions in wrestling and how they all actually just two broad types is exactly what this thread needed.

 

Who's being childish? I ask about trifecta candidates, that passive-aggressive boring fuck's instincts are to move to try to deny the theoretical possibllity of a trifecta candidate by reducing the categories to just two. Brilliant end of conversation. Great contribution! Just like your post there.

 

It's a disguised form of trolling.

It's not trolling, it's actually engaging your point.

 

You asked a question, and did not enjoy how it was responded to. If you want to complain, it's your right.. but don't blame it on trolling.

 

A troll is just an imaginary monster after all. 😏

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't want him engaging with my points or questions or anything, because he has heat with me. So coming in here making long-ass boring pedantic posts repeating shit he's said a thousand times before or systematically trying to deny the actual question itself is trolling in my view. If it was the first time, you're right, or even the tenth or twentieth. At this point I think the guy has no value, none at all. There's not much he can provide in terms of information that others can't. And I will continue to be hostile towards him, even if that gets heat on me or makes me look aggressive or childish. I don't give a shit because the guy wrecks a board I love by wading into threads and destroying them with the sort of stuff we've seen here.

 

Look at the nice little chats about possible trifecta candidates we were having here before he came in and literally scared away half the people who were posting who take one look at the thing and think "ah fuck, it's not even worth posting". And not even with a single thing he hasn't said eight dozen times before. Guys have been banned for less. I think he's a troll, just one that happened to have known Meltzer and has hung around since the start of time. If there was an ignore function, he'd be on it. A damn shame too, because he's one of a handful of people who actually give a shit about the 70s. You've got to be quite an asshole to be into 70s wrestling and have me hate your guts with a passion. It's a venn diagram of one.

 

Actually, I'm gone until he's gone.

[jdw]

 

Never did I say they didn't know it was a work.

 

You can buy it or not. They weren't training guys how to throw fake punches. Hell they weren't even teaching advance things like running the ropes of ring placement.

 

Training was very simple by design. You learned on the road.

 

It's okay to be cynical, being around wrestling for so long does that to you. But it's the truth.

 

 

So explain this "road" thing.

 

You're in "camp" in the Winter of 1971/72. You don't debut until December 1972, and you sure as hell know how to run the ropes by your debut match. Are you "on the road" for 8 months acting as a ring boy and working out before matches at which point you're learning how to throw fake punches and run the ropes? If so, that's training.

 

For what it's worth, I've been in Tijuana after shows were over and spent a half hour afterwards sitting around while Dave went backstage to talk to Carlos and the boys. In that time, kids would hope up in the ring, run the ropes, do stuff off the corner (first or second turnbuckle), throw fake punches at each other, actually "sell" for each other, etc. They weren't smooth, they were playing around, but...

 

They knew.

 

They were 8-14 year old boys / fans doing "lucha" in the ring. They weren't training, but just fucking around having fun until eventually being cleared of the ring.

 

This was in the mid-90s before breaking kayfabe was even in widespread in the US via the interwebs and online angles, let alone in lucha where it survived a few more years. These weren't guys being "trained" but simply kids who knew how to "play" pro wrestling simply for watching it.

 

Basically Buddy is asking you to believe that he was a Dumber Dude in training than 8-14 year old lucha fans.

 

I don't buy it. I have no idea why you buy it, Matt. You're smart enough and been around carny folks in the business to see through people bullshitting. :/