[Thought experiment] Imagine if the territories stay intact ...

[JerryvonKramer]

Brain, I was thinking more in terms of how he was booked, presented and positioned as opposed to how he worked the matches.

 

I'd agree that Bret always gave a lot more to his opponents than Bob, even if his strongest suit was offense. That said, just listening to Marty's analysis of why he prefers Bulldogs vs. Dream Team to Bulldogs vs. Hart Foundation, and it comes down to Bret not really letting the Bulldogs get their shit in -- so his working style might be an issue as NWA champ. Flair, Race and Terry Funk would allow their opponents to get ALL their shit in, most of the time.

[thebrainfollower]

I can't think of anyone NOT named Dynamite Kid Bret ever did that too. I'd say Bret was just protecting his body against a legit psychopath and had every right to do so. Bret's NOT a tough guy who can take you apart if you mess with him (I don't know if the Hammer was, but I would venture a guess he was).

 

Dynamite was a guy I'd be very nervous about letting get his stuff in if I were Bret. Have you ever heard Jake's "elbow, fist or knee" story about Dynamite and Bret. There's a kneedrop in a TV match they had in 85 where Dynamite just blasts Bret as hard as possible.

 

Also Parv Bulldogs matches tended to have the same characteristics as Bob Backlund matches. Go back and watch WM 2 where the heel champs get squashed like bugs for 90% of the match and then lose on a fluke.

[JerryvonKramer]

Go back and watch WM 2 where the heel champs get squashed like bugs for 90% of the match and then lose on a fluke.

Point is as NWA champ, Bret would need to be that heel. Not 50-50, but 80-20 or lower ratio for offense. That is if he works like Race or Flair. Can you think of any times when Bret allowed his opponents 80% offense?

 

If Bret is NWA Champ it'd be a change of booking philosophy back to Dory Jr. days.

[Johnny Guitar]

Something else to consider, which Parties touched on, is which guys end up buying into or inheriting companies and becoming bosses.

 

Bret I could see taking over Stampede, rather than being NWA champ, and bringing in the japanese and euro guys like Stampede did anyway. Plus being tight with the Funks and Von Erichs. Any of the Texas guys he'd meet on tour there. Austin, Shawn and Taker for example.

 

Would Shawn and Austin, born and raised in San Antionio and Houston ( well just outside) and living in the area to this day. Buy into those offices. Shawn toyed with the idea of running a company with TWA.

 

Does Jim Ross end up running Mid South?

 

Piper is still in Portland. Does he take over from Don Owen? Does Raven end up back there due to his friendship with Piper and history in the area?

 

Is Matt Hardy running JCP for the Crocketts? Or is Paul E ala the WWN ?

 

With a dozen plus offices going do people who never got in the business find their way in, ala Cornette and Heyman, and make a difference? John Muse was a hairs breath away from booking WCW's cruiserweight divison and pretty much everyone on this board seems more competent to book a wrestling show than Vince Russo. Who did manage to get in the door, despite the limited opportunities available.

[Parties]

Hogan as a Steve Williams in Japan rather than what he did in America is interesting/bizarre to think about.

In 1990-1991, the NWA world title contenders from WWE look like Piper, Dibiase, Dusty, Bret, Savage, Rude, Hennig, maybe Davey Boy, and Kerry if he doesn’t get in his accident. From WCW it’s Flair, Luger, Windham, Vader. Then there’s guys like Pillman or Eaton who might have been groomed for it if pushed. Overseas there's Gordy, Williams, Hansen. Indies had Lawler and Funk.

In 1993, it’s a different alignment. In WWE the only people at NWA world title level are Bret and Lawler, and they were the main event feud that year. Hennig if his injuries don't happen. Their #3 might be Matt Borne, and he was involved in the feud too. WCW, with a smaller roster, in ’93 had Flair, Pillman, Eaton, Regal, Arn, Windham, Vader, Dustin, Austin, Foley, Steamboat, Scorpio, Rude, and Benoit.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yes, Parties, but you have to imagine what each of those guys careers would have been like if they were all working in the different territories.

 

DiBiase is a possibility, sure, but he'd have remained a Watts guy, and Mid-South never had the best relationship with NWA.

 

Piper probably would have shuttled between New York, San Francisco, LA, Portland (he loved Don Owen), GCW and Crockett. In fact, he's a possibility, depending on how over he got. Although his working style doesn't exactly smack of NWA champ.

 

Savage is an interesting one to consider, but since he was the son of an outlaw, that's a long journey to make to become NWA champ.

 

Rude possibly, depending on where his career went. He would have had to have tone down the gimmick a bit to be champ, but he's viable. Rude was known as a bit of a hard-ass in the business though, and might have had too much heat with various promoters. He'd have had to have an internal-NWA advocate. I think Rude would have been powerful politically if he'd ever have gotten over as champ, he had that personality.

 

Hennig I reckon stays in AWA.

 

Luger I don't see having enough respect from the boys or getting Flair's blessing to become champ.

 

Vader maybe, although it would be a real change of direction for the title.

[Grimmas]

 

Go back and watch WM 2 where the heel champs get squashed like bugs for 90% of the match and then lose on a fluke.

Point is as NWA champ, Bret would need to be that heel. Not 50-50, but 80-20 or lower ratio for offense. That is if he works like Race or Flair. Can you think of any times when Bret allowed his opponents 80% offense?

 

If Bret is NWA Champ it'd be a change of booking philosophy back to Dory Jr. days.

 

Watch Bret vs 1-2-3 Kid from Raw to see what a touring Bret champion would look like. I think that would be an amazing formula to build upon. Go to each town, make the local hero look great but lose in the end.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Watch Bret Vs The Patriot from, is it, Badd Blood in 1997 for another good example of Bret as touring champ.

[Grimmas]

Watch Bret Vs The Patriot from, is it, Badd Blood in 1997 for another good example of Bret as touring champ.

I haven't watched that match since '97 and I remember disappointment at the time. How is it?

[Bierschwale]

Well, even if the territories stay in tact, that doesn't have anything to do with TV.

 

I can picture Turner taking over the NWA to an extent without having to buy into a promotion. Since he did in reality, we could say that he'd have had national broadcasts for Georgia, Mid-Atlantic, and Mid-South, which is a pretty nice stranglehold on what would be some of the biggest promotions. It'd be an arrangement where everyone would have benefited from "their" talent appearing in those three, and they'd hold more power. Even the most intransigent old bastards in other territories would have to capitulate if Turner could pull the strings on their guys' booking if they didn't give him what he wanted.

 

I mean, it's irrelevant if you think that that violates the '75 rule of the thread, but that'd change things.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well, even if the territories stay in tact, that doesn't have anything to do with TV.

 

I can picture Turner taking over the NWA to an extent without having to buy into a promotion. Since he did in reality, we could say that he'd have had national broadcasts for Georgia, Mid-Atlantic, and Mid-South, which is a pretty nice stranglehold on what would be some of the biggest promotions. It'd be an arrangement where everyone would have benefited from "their" talent appearing in those three, and they'd hold more power. Even the most intransigent old bastards in other territories would have to capitulate if Turner could pull the strings on their guys' booking if they didn't give him what he wanted.

 

I mean, it's irrelevant if you think that that violates the '75 rule of the thread, but that'd change things.

This is all true I guess, but it also assumes that LA and New York -- the two biggest media centres in the US -- don't also find better TV. But of course then we're one step away from things going national and there being an all-out war, etc. Perhaps there's no avoiding it.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

For some reason the quote function isn't working for me, but to answer Grimmas, the match is actually quite good. Probably longer than it needs to be, and not something you'd consider classic Bret, but definitely interesting in the way he works the match, giving loads of the match to Patriot, and basically escaping with the belt on a fluke (well, as much as a tap out win can be a fluke anyway).

[Parties]

By ’90, most of the best workers no longer fit the NWA touring champ model. It could have been Dibiase, but he wasn’t the most talented option. Rude could have been really good, and there could have been money in guys like Bret, Pillman, Steamboat, Dustin, and Scorpio chasing him for it. Austin fit the description, but he wasn’t an elite worker as Stunning Steve (his WCW work strikes me as a guy with TomK's "great technician" gimmick rather than actually being one), and the Stone Cold character doesn’t scream “NWA touring champ”.

My favorite Americans of the time - all of whom were booked strong worldwide between 90-93 - were Rude, Hansen, Gordy, Williams, Windham, Vader, Dustin, and Lawler. And I could see throwing Bret on there too. Of that bunch, I’d go with Rude beating Steamboat or Flair in ’90. He holds it for 2-3 years until a conquering babyface emerges, with Bret or Dustin as the most likely options. If Turner is the kingpin rather than Vince, then tie goes to the WCW guy, but who's to say Bret wouldn't have been a WCW guy by then? Windham makes sense if he could get his act together, but all things being equal, I’d say he doesn’t and remains a missed opportunity.

 

If the territories don’t collapse, does Dusty do all the things that made him a pariah, and do those sins of the father carry down to Dustin? Or does history remember Dusty more fondly, giving Dustin a good Funk/Windham “heritage” case to make for being world champ? As JVK's saying here, it's as much about whoever could satisfy the politics of the business at the time. But if it came down to that, you'd have to contend with Flair being champion for most of the prior 10 years, and a lot of it might come down to his choice for passing the torch. In which case Dustin, Windham, or even Piper seem more likely than Bret.

 

Hansen’s my favorite worker of all of them at this time, but he probably isn’t right for the role, even if booked as a surly veteran heel a la his AWA title win. Could he or Williams have bridged the gap and been a champion who worked both All Japan and New Japan?

Even if the territories remain, MMA is still inevitable, and some of those guys would be in the mix by the mid-90s. You wouldn’t see Severn holding the NWA title as he did for four years, but guys like Ken Shamrock or Don Frye could still be working a mixed schedule that could be alluring to old school midwest mafioso looking for authenticity/credibility in a shooter type. They wouldn't be thrilled with the idea of their champion being knocked out on a UFC card, but they could have had pull in deciding who their champ fought.

[JerryvonKramer]

Incidentally, I think DiBiase was more "talented" than Rude, but that's a topic for another thread.

[thebrainfollower]

Per Rude vs. Dibiase - this SOUNDS like something that's a fair and simple comparison as both guys were top heels in the WWF in the late 80's but I think it's a tougher comparison to make. Dibiase peaked in the mid 80's after a decade in the territories working the best in the world at the time.

 

Rude on the other hand really didn't get started until the territories were dying off, and he didn't work a whole heck of a lot of top workers other than Lawler until he got to Crockett land. He then spent most of his WWF run being the teacher, not the learner (except for the Jake feud I guess) and then moved on to be the best heel in WCW in one of its best in ring years ever.

 

Rude also had a shorter career, only about 12 years or so IIRC. I'd say he worked his character a lot better than Ted, playing the cocky arrogant poser in every moment in the match in a way Dibiase didn't really play MDM in the ring. I'd like to see a separate thread on this, but again their peaks are nearly ten years apart in reality.

[Migs]

I'm intrigued by what direction New York would take. Assume that Backlund is still pushed out at the same time, but that Hogan, because he's working Japan so frequently, doesn't become the ace there. Who fits their mold? I could almost see a Bruno nostalgia run culminating in the title in '86-'87, but long-term, I'm having trouble seeing how that progresses. And it's pretty key to this theoretical world, because New York always had a fair amount of sway, even before Vince Jr.'s expansion.

 

Maybe Vader gets in their earlier and has a run as a monster heel champ in a transition phase? Maybe the same is true for Sid?

 

If we're not thinking of Vince Jr.'s preferences, maybe Bret Hart still ends up with a run there, as the comparison to Backlund is not completely off? If we're thinking of Vince Jr., maybe Luger or Sting end up there early on and have a bigger run?

 

The Rock almost certainly still ends up there because of his family ties, and is definitely still a big deal.

[Migs]

 

One big unknown for me would be how present-day California would fit into all this. A Lucha Underground style company based out of LA, coupled with a Bay Area group of would-be MMA guys? A New Japan LA Dojo using NJ’s current gaijin, Uriah Faber types, and various ROH/PWG/Evolve guys? Something owned by the Shamrocks? A pro wrestling group built around AKA guys like Daniel Cormier, Cain Velasquez, Fitch, Arlovski, Penn, Lashley and Rumble Johnson?

 

If whoever ran the LA territory was able to keep his finger somewhat on the pulse, I think it would have thrived. Even in lean times, you could lean on bringing in some luchadores to draw, and SoCal had a very solid generation of talent that started up in the late 90s/early 2000s, with Super Dragon, Samoa Joe, the other PWG guys. I don't know John Cena would get affected, but he kinda broke in out here. Same with Miz.

 

I think that, in the end, you end up with a product built around smaller guys that can mix with the lucha style, like a larger Rev Pro/PWG style. Basically, what the SoCal scene is now, but on a bigger stage.

 

I think guys like Kaos (from XPW), Super Dragon, Joey Ryan, Samoa Joe would all end up being bigger stars than they were in real life. Tag team scene with Aerial Express (Scorpio Sky and Quicksilver), RockNES Monsters, Chris Bosh/Scott Lost, and more? Sign me up. Another guy who might have broken out, barring injury, would have been Human Tornado, he was really charismatic.

 

Of course, in the 80s, it could have gotten stuck as a 'big man' mini-New York, thanks to Hollywood and TV. If it didn't, though, it would have been cool to see a 'lucharesu' territory on a big stage.

 

 

Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio would have been HUGE stars in LA in the 90s. Just absolutely massive, with Eddie building on his brother Chavo's popularity there. This would have been a big deal because of the way Spanish language television took off nationally in the 90s - they'd have been more national stars than some of the other guys.

 

The indie scene that evolved out there would have been so easily incorporated, because a lot of those guys were really descendants of Eddie and Rey's styles as it was.

[Bierschwale]

I have put a lot more thought into this if we're talking about a "territorial" model that has fewer actually territories, though "Who folds into who?" is the operative question. Like, I can easily imagine Stampede as a smaller vanity promotion within a full Northwest region and an all-California promotion that covers Arizona/Nevada. Kansas City and St. Louis into the AWA? That's harder.