Misawa vs Hashimoto

[elliott]

Ace of All Japan vs Ace of New Japan. Misawa was considered an all time great before most of us started posting online. Hash was well thought of at the time but people REALLY love him now. Who you got and why?

[Graham Crackers]

Misawa just edges out Hashimoto for me but they're not too far apart. Fujiwara, Misawa, Tenryu, Hashimoto, and Ishikawa are my definite top five native Japanese wrestlers even if the order might change.

 

I think Misawa has more great matches and that's what really gives him the edge for me. I can understand putting Hashimoto ahead of him as the worst Misawa is worse than the worst Hashimoto.

[GOTNW]

They are my #1 and #2. When I asked myself what would characterize the greatest wrestler of all time the first thing that came to mind was the ability to instantly project their greatness no matter what position they were in and when they were in it. Both Misawa and Hashimoto fit that definition to a tee. Naturally I asked myself more questions and eventually reached a conclusion but before we got to that I'll digress and ramble for a while.

 

What finally ended my inner Misawa vs. Kawada debate was how much more I liked the idea of Misawa being interjected in a match than I did Kawada. Put Misawa in a 6 man tag in, I don't know, 2006, and I'll watch it without giving it more thought. It becomes a match that is instantly attractive to my mind. Do the same with Kawada and I won't really care much. Because, quite honestly, by that point neither did he. Misawa may be the single most influential wrestler in history. The change in the All Japan style was organic and gradual but Misawa gave it its final form. It's pretty fascinating to compare All Japan and New Japan matches from the same year because New Japan matches sometims feel even obsolete in comparison (which is also partly because of them pushing Mutoh and Chono). Obviusly it changed the landscape of japanese wrestling, but it was also heavily influential on american indy wrestling, and it eventually reached both WWE (seriously, the 2015 WWE style is like a shitty parody of All Japan) and, well, even lucha. I'm not going to pretend I know much about lucha, but noticing the use of "indyriffic" moves in recent times was fairly easy as was noticing the complaints of long time lucha followers about that "issue". Misawa's style was maximalistic and highly ambitious. He made it work. He was special. The other day I watched him take an Exploder from Akiyama and he bumped so well for it I replayed it three times. He made it work. He knew when to put on a hold and let the match breath without it feeling obligatory. He presented himself in such a manner that just hanging with him made the other guy look better (and it can't be stressed enough how hard it is to pull that off). He elbowed Kobashi's "cancer kidney" in his return match. He successfully worked around limitations and constructed great matches even in his final years. The only even remotely negative thing I can say about him is that sometimes his work became too ambitious and suffered because of this. Of course, because of Misawa's greatness this happened very, very rarely but it still did.

 

It took me a while to "click" with Hashimoto's work. I liked him from the first time I saw him, but it was only after viewing several of his matches that I really "got" him. He was my wrestling equivalent of The Velvet Underground. There were many instances where he could've gotten a louder pop if he had decided to finish a match differently, but instead he opted for the smarter choice that would be more rewarding in his later work. He had a special ability of building to a moment and almost toying with the fans' patience (mind you, not something that japanese fans lack) before commencing outbursts of violence that transcended the boundaries my mind had set on how good wrestling could be. He didn't work as epic (epic in its original definition, not "13 year old describing his favourite video game epic") as Misawa but he managed to achieve the same level of drama in much shorter time spans. He was great as early as 1989 and as late as 2004. He doesn't lack the quantity of great work and I like his best stuff more than anyone else's. Watching his matches always excites me and fills me with joy and to me that matters a lot more than how many Jumbo Tsuruta or Ric Flair matches someone else has given ****. AND he got a great match out of Chono.

[jdw]

I'm not entirely sold that Misawa gave All Japan's style it's final form. It really was more Kobashi's style. It got pops, both the office and a chunk of the wrestlers humored him on it because it worked with the crowd, and over time pretty much everyone followed including Misawa.

 

Other people had their influence. There's certainly a strand of Hansen in it, though in his book he overplays the degree to which he kept things moving along earlier in his career. Certainly Misawa had an impact since if he chose not to follow Kobashi, and wanted to balance out the style, he certainly could have and probably would have had support of some others. He didn't, and over time drifted further in that direction.

 

But...

 

What All Japan over time became, which would could call NOAHism since the path was completed there, really is much more Kobashism than Misawaism.

 

* * * * *

 

On Hash vs Misawa, Hash seems to age better. Lower expectations, he was later in getting praised (1994-95), them later in getting Really Praised (1996-97 run), and even then wasn't praised like the All Japan guys. He works a less generic style, and elements of All Japan / NOAHism have become pretty generic over the past 20 years. Hash brings a certain emotional level that's not really there with Misawa. You're more likely to find something fresh with Hash than with Misawa.

 

Hash also has the advantage of a good heated **** match feeling really satisfying, while a good heated Misawa one in that range (say 2/93 vs Taue or 9/93 vs Williams) are more like:

 

"Well... that's not bad... good non-Kawada match for Taue at that point... nice to see Doc improve... good performances by Misawa... well... he's only had 30 better."

 

30 might be an exaggeration... or not... just pulling a number out of my ass. With Misawa, you tend to put it instantly on the Misawa Career Scale.

 

With Hash, if he has a good heated **** match, you're not really getting too worried about how it matches up with one of the Tenryu matches or the 1995 G1 Final with Mutoh. You watch something like the 11/90 match with Choshu and go, "Well fuck it... that was a motherfucking war!"

 

Here's what I mean as an example:

 

Loss' Top Matches of 1990

#77 - Riki Choshu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 11/01/90)
#33 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jumbo Tsuruta (AJPW 06/08/90)
#6 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jumbo Tsuruta (AJPW 09/01/90)

 

Misawa has that baggage: 6/90 ends up being comped not just with the rest of the decade of Misawa putting up snowflakes, but his re-match that year with Jumbo which people have debated back and forth for 15+ years.

 

Hash has none of that baggage. You can just enjoy the fuck out of that match he had with Choshu.

 

Style, emotion and expectations... Hash does age a better.

 

It's even the case with me. I'd probably rather watch that Hash-Choshu tonight that slog through a Jumbo-Misawa and have to get all deep thoughty about it. Bit odd to feel that way.

[BillThompson]

Hash gets the edge with with. I like both of them, but I'v grown to love Hash. He doesn't have as many great matches as Misawa, but I'm not a big believer in great match theory. Hash made me care more about him as a performer, and he had a style I preferred. He showed his greatness against a variety of opponents and was better at getting good work out of lesser talent.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument that the New Japan heavies were unfairly maligned, particularly in relation to the juniors. But I'm flabbergasted by the argument that they were on the same level as the All Japan heavies.

[benjaminkicks]

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument that the New Japan heavies were unfairly maligned, particularly in relation to the juniors. But I'm flabbergasted by the argument that they were on the same level as the All Japan heavies.

Hash is the only 90's New Japan guy that I would put on the same level as The Pillars. I really like guys like Hase and Mutoh (sometimes) but they're on a different tier.

[WingedEagle]

I love Hash. Think Hase remains one of the more underrated workers of that era. Never a big Muto guy but appreciated that he sometimes brought it. Choshu almost always found ways to keep things interesting. But if those guys were on a level with the AJPW crew they should've produced matches at some point that equal the best we saw at Budokan from Baba's crew. Nothing I saw from that era was on the same level in a New Japan ring.

[GOTNW]

Trying to turn this into an All Japan heavies vs New Japan heavies debate is redundant. It's hard to put into words just how much better Hashimoto was than Mutoh and Chono.

[JAC]

On Hash vs Misawa, Hash seems to age better. Lower expectations, he was later in getting praised (1994-95), them later in getting Really Praised (1996-97 run), and even then wasn't praised like the All Japan guys. He works a less generic style, and elements of All Japan / NOAHism have become pretty generic over the past 20 years. Hash brings a certain emotional level that's not really there with Misawa. You're more likely to find something fresh with Hash than with Misawa.

 

Hash also has the advantage of a good heated **** match feeling really satisfying, while a good heated Misawa one in that range (say 2/93 vs Taue or 9/93 vs Williams) are more like:

 

"Well... that's not bad... good non-Kawada match for Taue at that point... nice to see Doc improve... good performances by Misawa... well... he's only had 30 better."

 

30 might be an exaggeration... or not... just pulling a number out of my ass. With Misawa, you tend to put it instantly on the Misawa Career Scale.

 

With Hash, if he has a good heated **** match, you're not really getting too worried about how it matches up with one of the Tenryu matches or the 1995 G1 Final with Mutoh. You watch something like the 11/90 match with Choshu and go, "Well fuck it... that was a motherfucking war!"

 

...

 

Misawa has that baggage: 6/90 ends up being comped not just with the rest of the decade of Misawa putting up snowflakes, but his re-match that year with Jumbo which people have debated back and forth for 15+ years.

 

Hash has none of that baggage. You can just enjoy the fuck out of that match he had with Choshu.

 

I think it speaks to the greatness of a candidate like Misawa, Kawada, Flair or Tsuruta that reeling off a four-star match comes across as a ho-hum accomplishment. What would be a memorable match for another wrestler seems practically forgettable for someone like these greats.

 

I do like Hashimoto, significantly more than Chono and Mutoh for that matter. I rank him rather highly. But I think Misawa is on another level entirely, one of a small handful of guys I could see being my pick for No. 1. Misawa's work on top gives him a big advantage in my opinion. Maybe it makes me a "movez" guy (God, I hate that use of a "z"), but I like what Misawa brings to the table in terms of offence. He had a better variety of moves with which he could build his offensive sequences. On the whole, I think Misawa sold a little bit better than Hashimoto too, although I don't remember Hashimoto having anything distracting like Misawa's "adjust the tights, flick the hair away from the eyes" tick when selling.

 

I do agree that he's the one of the Three Musketeers who would have best fit in with the All Japan heavyweights. He's the only one of them that I can imagine having dream matches with the Four Pillars in the mid-nineties that would not have been disappointing.

[jdw]

 

I think it speaks to the greatness of a candidate like Misawa, Kawada, Flair or Tsuruta that reeling off a four-star match comes across as a ho-hum accomplishment. What would be a memorable match for another wrestler seems practically forgettable for someone like these greats.

 

 

I've written about that a number of times in the past. A standard ho-hum All Japan tv taping six-man match that you'd seen a dozen similar to before tended to be ho-hum in the context of its time, and can be ho-hum if you're watching it now in the context of scarfing down a bunch of other All Japan from the era. But...

 

If you like the era, you've been away from it for a while, and you pop in some random **** tv taping six-man tag, you'll like go:

 

"Fuck... these are better than I remember them to be. I don't even recall this being one of their best. Damn it's entertaining."

 

I can't remember the random match we watched that got that reaction a decade ago when talking about it. I do recall watching a random tag league match, and a Jumbo & Taue vs Gordy & Doc being better than I recalled.

 

This was the match about four years ago I tossed out as an example after watching it:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30157-mitsuharu-misawa-kenta-kobashi-jun-akiyama-vs-toshiaki-kawada-akira-taue-takao-omori-ajpw-new-years-giant-series-012094

 

Serious about the Raw analogy and the 1994 WWF analogy. One could extend that to New Japan: similar matches in New Japan in the 90s are lost gems or forgotten classics or "why has no one ever talked about this match?!?!" stuff. With All Japan, I forgot it when doing the Pimping Post and there was a lot of additional stuff I tossed out in it.

 

That's what I was trying to get across. Misawa and All Japan have baggage. High expectations. Mass of stuff pointed to and talked about and pimped. A natural move of some away from the old war horses and consensus, which certainly I've done as long and often as others around here. For some there might also have a tinge of discomfort at some of his work as it escalates and you now know that it killed him.

 

Hash has none of that baggage. He's not a blank slate, since a lot of us have been pimping him for years. But his mass of Usual Suspects Matches being pimped was always smaller, which creates all sorts of new avenues for people to stumble upon.

[JAC]

That's what I was trying to get across. Misawa and All Japan have baggage. High expectations. Mass of stuff pointed to and talked about and pimped. A natural move of some away from the old war horses and consensus, which certainly I've done as long and often as others around here. For some there might also have a tinge of discomfort at some of his work as it escalates and you now know that it killed him.

 

Hash has none of that baggage. He's not a blank slate, since a lot of us have been pimping him for years. But his mass of Usual Suspects Matches being pimped was always smaller, which creates all sorts of new avenues for people to stumble upon.

 

Great write-up on the 01/20/94 match. I certainly understood and agreed with your point. I suppose that my concern is that some people (not you, and not necessarily anyone in this thread) mistake the greater enjoyment they get from seeing a good match from a less-heralded worker as being indicative of that worker being better than a more heralded worker.

 

Hashimoto is a guy who's fresher to me because I've watched fewer of his matches that I have Misawa's and because I've watched those Hashimoto matches fewer times than I have the Misawa matches. Watching a good Hashimoto match that I've never seen before probably hits me in the gut more than re-watching a great Misawa match that I've watched six times. Familiarity breeds contempt, or at least apathy! Similarly, if I watch a 3.5-star Misawa match from NOAH, I'm probably thinking about how Misawa had become a shell of his former self by that time, whereas a similar performance from a mid-90s NJPW match might have me thinking, "chalk up another solid performance for Hash!". But at the end of the day, I can detach myself from the freshness of the Hashimoto match and the lack of expectations burdening my enjoyment to compare whether the match itself and the work within the match is better, worse or comparable to the Misawa match and Misawa's work. I hope that people don't conflate a wrestler's apparent 'freshness' to them with the question of who's actually better.

[NintendoLogic]

Trying to turn this into an All Japan heavies vs New Japan heavies debate is redundant. It's hard to put into words just how much better Hashimoto was than Mutoh and Chono.

 

I don't disagree with the last part, but I think that the worst All Japan heavy was better than the best New Japan heavy. Here's how I see it:

 

Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi

 

(gap)

 

Taue

 

(gap)

 

Hashimoto

 

 

(large gap)

 

 

Mutoh/Chono

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm open to being persuaded that Hashimoto was better than Taue.

[GOTNW]

Hashimoto fought a fat guy pretending to be a frog in HUSTLE. You can't top that.

 

I'm not entirely sold that Misawa gave All Japan's style it's final form. It really was more Kobashi's style. It got pops, both the office and a chunk of the wrestlers humored him on it because it worked with the crowd, and over time pretty much everyone followed including Misawa.

MIsawa was working big matches in that manner before Kobashi was even fully pushed. He introduced the junior-esque aspects, strikes being sold like death, started the headdrop madness and presented the idea of constantly introducing new finishers as soon as the old ones were devalued. I guess you may be correct in that it was Kobashi's influence that took the style the furthest it ever got but in terms of overall influence there's no question who was more important.

 

Hash also has the advantage of a good heated **** match feeling really satisfying, while a good heated Misawa one in that range (say 2/93 vs Taue or 9/93 vs Williams) are more like:

 

"Well... that's not bad... good non-Kawada match for Taue at that point... nice to see Doc improve... good performances by Misawa... well... he's only had 30 better."

 

30 might be an exaggeration... or not... just pulling a number out of my ass. With Misawa, you tend to put it instantly on the Misawa Career Scale.

 

With Hash, if he has a good heated **** match, you're not really getting too worried about how it matches up with one of the Tenryu matches or the 1995 G1 Final with Mutoh. You watch something like the 11/90 match with Choshu and go, "Well fuck it... that was a motherfucking war!"

I watched that Taue match somewhat recently and there's no way I'd give it ****.. For Taue it's a clear indication he really wasn't as great as some think he is (though he mastered the style eventually). For Misawa it shows he could work long with 93 Taue without making me gouge my eyeballs out.

 

The 1995 G1 final is a great match, but it's also a total Hashimoto carry job. All the negatives in the match (like the matwork being pointless and leading nowhere) are staples of Mutoh's work while Hashimoto is clearly responsible for carrying the entire body of the match with his charismatic performance. It's a match Hashimoto could've had with any competent wrestler that knew a couple of holds and could do a Moonsault (which Mutoh couldn't even execute properly since he botched climbing on the top rope at the end.......it was pretty hilarious).

[jdw]

Hashimoto fought a fat guy pretending to be a frog in HUSTLE. You can't top that.

 

I'm not entirely sold that Misawa gave All Japan's style it's final form. It really was more Kobashi's style. It got pops, both the office and a chunk of the wrestlers humored him on it because it worked with the crowd, and over time pretty much everyone followed including Misawa.

MIsawa was working big matches in that manner before Kobashi was even fully pushed. He introduced the junior-esque aspects, strikes being sold like death, started the headdrop madness and presented the idea of constantly introducing new finishers as soon as the old ones were devalued. I guess you may be correct in that it was Kobashi's influence that took the style the furthest it ever got but in terms of overall influence there's no question who was more important.

 

I would be interesting in some timelines on when Misawa:

 

* introduced the junior-esque aspects

 

* strikes being sold like death

 

* started the headdrop madness

 

* presented the idea of constantly introducing new finishers as soon as the old ones were devalued

 

The strikes thing pre-dates both of them. So does the "new finishers" concept.

 

The juniors thing isn't terribly relevant since one guy is a former junior who moved up to the heavies and was a marginal player for four years after that even with his juniorism. Then the other guy happened to have the most juniorific finished in the company, and worked more like a junior than any heavyweight in the decade... from the start of it to the finish.

 

Headrops was Jumbo, not Misawa or Kobashi. In fact, they along with Kawada and Kikuchi were in the eating end of them, all at the same time. Then Doc added his dangerous backdrop (which mophed into the Backdrop Drive, first eaten by Kobashi), and right in the same time frame Kawada was adding his dangerous backdrop that was more head droppy than what Misawa or Kobashi were doing.

 

 

I watched that Taue match somewhat recently and there's no way I'd give it ****.. For Taue it's a clear indication he really wasn't as great as some think he is (though he mastered the style eventually). For Misawa it shows he could work long with 93 Taue without making me gouge my eyeballs out.

 

 

I didn't have Misawa-Taue at ****. But Meltzer had it at **** at the time, and Loss had it at ****. Hence picking a not-so-random match.

 

You didn't care for it as much. Lots of others didn't. My guess is that if Hash got that same match out of Taue, we all probably would like it more than Misawa doing it.

 

The 1995 G1 final is a great match, but it's also a total Hashimoto carry job. All the negatives in the match (like the matwork being pointless and leading nowhere) are staples of Mutoh's work while Hashimoto is clearly responsible for carrying the entire body of the match with his charismatic performance. It's a match Hashimoto could've had with any competent wrestler that knew a couple of holds and could do a Moonsault (which Mutoh couldn't even execute properly since he botched climbing on the top rope at the end.......it was pretty hilarious).

 

 

I think Hash was great in it. Mutoh was passable in it.

[GOTNW]

 

Headrops was Jumbo, not Misawa or Kobashi. In fact, they along with Kawada and Kikuchi were in the eating end of them, all at the same time. Then Doc added his dangerous backdrop (which mophed into the Backdrop Drive, first eaten by Kobashi), and right in the same time frame Kawada was adding his dangerous backdrop that was more head droppy than what Misawa or Kobashi were doing.

Did Jumbo even do headdrops other than his great looking, but relatively safe Backdrops? Compare this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xgnD1T6aCA

to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhpiB4U2oRk

It's night and day. Misawa's offence was heavy on German and Tiger Suplexes and he'd already used the Vertical Drop Tiger Driver by 1991. Steve Williams was using Backdrop Drivers as early as 1990. But the change really came when Misawa became the ace and Kawada and Kobashi followed his stylistics.

 

I would be interesting in some timelines on when Misawa:

 

* introduced the junior-esque aspects

As soon as he started main eventing, for obvious reasons.

 

 

* strikes being sold like death

Shortly after he legitimately knocked out someone in a tag match in All Japan in 1990

 

* started the headdrop madness

I'm not sure about this one but without rewatching stuff I'd say 1992.

 

 

* presented the idea of constantly introducing new finishers as soon as the old ones were devalued

 

The strikes thing pre-dates both of them. So does the "new finishers" concept.

It would be wonderful if you actually factually back up your statement. Misawa went form Tiger Driver>Tiger Driver 1991>Emerald Flowsion>Emerald Flowsion KAI>Fireman's Carry Emerald Flowsion while simultaneously, at all points during his career, having other believable match ending maneuvers (as in, he actually won matches with them, not just "they looked great and got pops"). And sure, people won matches with strikes before him, but those strikes were mostly lariats. It wasn't an inherent part of the style like it had become when Misawa was on top.

 

 

You didn't care for it as much. Lots of others didn't. My guess is that if Hash got that same match out of Taue, we all probably would like it more than Misawa doing it.

Well watching a 10 minute ***1/2 match would be a lot more entertaining than watching a 25 minute *** one.

[jdw]

 

 

Headrops was Jumbo, not Misawa or Kobashi. In fact, they along with Kawada and Kikuchi were in the eating end of them, all at the same time. Then Doc added his dangerous backdrop (which mophed into the Backdrop Drive, first eaten by Kobashi), and right in the same time frame Kawada was adding his dangerous backdrop that was more head droppy than what Misawa or Kobashi were doing.

 

Did Jumbo even do headdrops other than his great looking, but relatively safe Backdrops? Compare this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xgnD1T6aCA

to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhpiB4U2oRk

 

It's night and day. Misawa's offence was heavy on German and Tiger Suplexes and he'd already used the Vertical Drop Tiger Driver by 1991. Steve Williams was using Backdrop Drivers as early as 1990. But the change really came when Misawa became the ace and Kawada and Kobashi followed his stylistics.

 

 

German and Tiger Suplexes aren't really head-droppy, except later when they started jerking off with them.

 

And yeah, you can find Jumbo backdrops that are just as dangerous looking as Kawada's, including Misawa eating them to the point that you'll cringe.

 

Doc had been doing a dangerous backdrop for ages. I don't recall it ever being called a backdrop driver until he dropped Kobashi on his head in a six man tag. It was the backdrop drive in their singles match later on the same series, and then again when trying to hit it against Misawa to end the series.

 

The Tiger Driver '91 wasn't an intentional headdrop spot. He did it twice in 1991, couldn't control it (i.e. accidentally was dropping people on their heads), and shelved it until El Clasico when they rolled it back out... on rare occasions initially.

 

It's really just a collective thing of the direction heading in a certain direction.

 

 

I would be interesting in some timelines on when Misawa:

* introduced the junior-esque aspects

 

 

As soon as he started main eventing, for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

Cool... that means Fujinami invented All Japan style.

 

Setting aside Fujinami and other juniors that moved into main events, there is some irony that Misawa's first television main event after moving up from the junior division had another junior in the match on the other side. Should we give that other wrestler co-credit for bringing juniorism to All Japan main events? Or should we get worried about Dynamite Kid beating Misawa to main events in All Japan and inventing junior-style heavyweight work?

 

Seriously, when I watch Misawa vs Jumbo, I'm trying to figure out the impactful influential junior stuff in there. It's hard for me to get blown away with his top rope stuff when Tenryu had been doing the fall away elbow for years (with Kawada lifting it as his protege), while Jumbo did missile dropkicks in the 70s.

 

 

Quote

* strikes being sold like death

 

Shortly after he legitimately knocked out someone in a tag match in All Japan in 1990

 

 

It's a good thing that the Lariat and Riki-Larit and the Enzugiri aren't strikes. Wait... they are.

 

Quote

* started the headdrop madness

 

I'm not sure about this one but without rewatching stuff I'd say 1992.

 

 

One can mix it around. One can point to either backdrops getting more dangerous with Jumbo and Doc earlier in the decade, or with Doc escalating it intentionally with the backdrop driver in 1993. Kobashi ate the first series of them. Part of the storyline of the Misawa-Doc match that followed was that Misawa avoided fully eating it (kicked off the ropes to alter it), and didn't get truly killed dead with it until the title change, though others had by the point (Kobashi year again in the 1994 Carny).

 

 

 

Quote

* presented the idea of constantly introducing new finishers as soon as the old ones were devalued

The strikes thing pre-dates both of them. So does the "new finishers" concept.

 

 

 

It would be wonderful if you actually factually back up your statement. Misawa went form Tiger Driver>Tiger Driver 1991>Emerald Flowsion>Emerald Flowsion KAI>Fireman's Carry Emerald Flowsion while simultaneously, at all points during his career, having other believable match ending maneuvers (as in, he actually won matches with them, not just "they looked great and got pops"). And sure, people won matches with strikes before him, but those strikes were mostly lariats. It wasn't an inherent part of the style like it had become when Misawa was on top.

 

 

Like Kobashi wasn't rolling out stuff like the jacknife power bomb or the orange crush or a variety of other stuff. Or Jumbo adding a slew of finishers throughout his career: good luck finding him using the power bomb in the 70s.

 

Or perhaps a more challenging, difficult one. Watch some 60s Baba matches and look for his finishers. The watch his 70s stuff, and try to figure out when he adds the running neckbreaker drop and the russian leg sweep.

 

Adding finishers is kind of a All Japan thing. Folks had been doing it for years. We've joked about Jumbo's Big Bag of Moves similar to Harley's. the slight different is that Jumbo used a ton of them, and kept adding to it over the years.

 

I thought it was something that everyone who follows All Japan knows: they added shit. Misawa didn't invent it.

 

 

 

Quote

You didn't care for it as much. Lots of others didn't. My guess is that if Hash got that same match out of Taue, we all probably would like it more than Misawa doing it.

 

 

Well watching a 10 minute ***1/2 match would be a lot more entertaining than watching a 25 minute *** one.

 

 

Hashimoto's first three defenses of the IWGP Title were all longer than 10 minutes... 20 minutes... 25 minutes. They were all longer than Misawa-Taue:

 

Feb-28-93 Triple Crown Title: Mitsuharu Misawa © defeats Akira Taue (22:33)

 

Dec-10-93 IWGP Title: Shinya Hashimoto © defeats Keiji Muto (28:57)

Dec-13-93 IWGP Title: Shinya Hashimoto © defeats Power Warrior (25:17)

Jan-04-94 IWGP Title: Shinya Hashimoto © defeats Masahiro Chono (28:00)

 

I seem to recall Meltzer had the Sasaki match at or above ***. He had Hash-Mutoh at ***3/4 to the **** of Misawa-Taue, while Loss had it at ***1/4. Meltzer had Hash-Chono at ***.

 

Hash was working long (for the pre-Clasico era) title matches. They were methodical. Hash tended to get praise for them, more so than Sasaki and Chono in those two. Just not the level of praise that Misawa got against Taue having to follow Kawada-Hansen.

[Parties]

Heart says Hash, head says Misawa. And really I've got a lot of heart for Misawa too. Of the four King's Road pillars (or five including Akiyama), Misawa's work holds up the best today. (I know that distinction often goes to Kawada, but I like Misawa a lot more than Kawada. Misawa didn't puss around in HUSTLE for years. But to be fair, Kawada has U-Style and clipped MUGA footage that shows he still knew how to be incredible to the bitter end.) If anything Misawa's currently underrated, as we take him for granted. Even in his unheralded matches, there is always something newly entertaining that I appreciate. And not in some dry, formulaic "Technical excellence, Joseph Campbell's power of myth at its finest" way. I mean in a visceral "He just kicked that guy straight in the teeth, and you could hear foot hit face" kind of way. Or in the case of latter Misawa: "That selling looks really good because this guy no longer has orbital bones."

 

That said, I need to go back and watch more Hashimoto. There's a lot of 90s New Japan greatness that I've missed just because it's less heralded than AJ of same era.

[Microstatistics]

Looking back this is a hard one. As an ace, I would definitely go Misawa because he personified that role better than anyone else in history for me (though I would have Hash as #2 all time ace). As a worker, not so sure. Peak Misawa is easily better and his top matches smoke Hash's top matches (in my opinion atleast). But Hashimoto has good to great matches against a much larger variety of opponents and was consistently great for a longer period of time. Could go either way.