puropotsy Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 On the new episode of The Wrestling Culture Podcast, Dylan and I return to talk the 2015 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame Ballot. I respectfully ask Dylan about his votes in the Lucha category and Dylan expresses his befuddlement at my voting for Nakamura and Edge. Good friends have a great chat about an awesome balloting year so please give it a listen http://placetobenation.com/wrestling-culture-podcast-2015-won-hall-of-fame/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Really enjoyed the show guys. I cracked up when Dylan went on a rant about VOW's Joe, and how he can't be a conservative voter if he votes based on ability, as it's such a subjective area, and can't be quantified. I think in the Lucha category, like you said, it's daft to think potentially Perro Jr. will get in before V3. I also loved your points about Tommy Rich, and if his career tradgetory was the opposite he'd be a shoe in for the HoF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 I liked the bit where Dave quipped "you just said 'Wrestling Culture'!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 When I stumbled on that 12,000 attendance show from 10/23/87 in Paris last night, I was interesting to see that that BRUTAL card was headlined by Harley Race and JYD. Andre was the special guest ref, and since they were in France, you wonder how many of the 12,000 were there purely to see Andre. But still it made me wonder about JYD as a drawing card in WWF. Going through results. WWF @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Arena - January 12, 1985 (sell out; the first sell out in the arena in more than a decade) Bret Hart defeated Rene Goulet Blackjack Mulligan defeated Mr. Fuji Wendi Richter defeated Judy Martin Barry Windham & Mike Rotundo defeated Nikolai Volkoff & the Iron Sheik Andre the Giant & the Junkyard Dog fought Ken Patera & Big John Studd to a draw Tito Santana defeated WWF IC Champion Greg Valentine via count-out JYD / Andre connection again, I don't see that gate being drawn by Greg vs. Tito. WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - January 12, 1985 (around 14,000; announced at 18,900) Originally announced for the show was Jimmy Snuka vs. Bob Orton Jr. and Andre the Giant & the Junkyard Dog vs. Ken Patera & Big John Studd but both were later removed from the lineup Televised on the PRISM Network - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Dick Graham on commentary: Prime Time Wrestling - 3/12/85: Rick McGraw pinned Johnny Rodz with a reverse crossbody off the top David Schultz defeated Dave Barbie Prime Time Wrestling - 3/12/85: The Spoiler (w/ Johnny V) fought George Wells to a 20-minute time-limit draw at 18:13; prior to the match, Johnny V took the mic and questioned the ring announcer and referee as to whether they knew who he was since he was not introduced alongside the Spoiler; after the bout, the Spoiler continued to attack Wells Prime Time Wrestling - 3/12/85: Brutus Beefcake (w/ Johnny V) pinned Salvatore Bellomo at 6:16 with a running kneelift Prime Time Wrestling - 3/12/85: David Sammartino (w/ Bruno Sammartino) defeated Paul Orndorff (w/ Bobby Heenan) via disqualification at 10:15 when Heenan tripped David from the floor; after the bout, Bruno attacked both Heenan and Orndorff until he was double teamed, with David then making the save; the ring announcer mistakenly referred to the decision as a double disqualification Prime Time Wrestling - 3/12/85: WWF Tag Team Champions Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch defeated Jack & Jerry Brisco when Adonis pinned Jack after Murdoch hit Jack with a chair behind the referee's back as he had the figure-4 applied on Adonis Prime Time Wrestling - 3/12/85: Don Muraco pinned Swede Hanson at 3:02 with a powerslam Prime Time Wrestling - 3/12/85: Roddy Piper & Bob Orton Jr. fought Jimmy Snuka & Tony Atlas (sub. for the Tonga Kid) to a double count-out when both teams brawled their way backstage Here, I look and wonder what is drawing the gate. Hogan is not on the card, but still 18,000. Piper is there. Bruno is actually on this card, which might talk to the 18,000. But Andre / JYD match was the one announced ahead of time. Interesting to think about. WWF @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - January 19, 1985 (9,832) SD Jones defeated Rene Goulet Bret Hart defeated Alexis Smirnoff The Spoiler defeated Rick McGraw Jimmy Snuka pinned Bob Orton Jr. Brutus Beefcake defeated Ivan Putski Tito Santana defeated WWF IC Champion Greg Valentine via disqualification Ken Patera & Big John Studd defeated Andre the Giant & the Junkyard Dog via disqualification Here's another big gate seemingly drawn by this Andre / JYD vs. Patera / Studd matchup. How much is Andre / Studd though, is up for question. WWF @ Cincinnati, OH - Riverfront Coliseum - January 26, 1985 (8,000) Nikolai Volkoff defeated Pat Patterson Ivan Putski defeated Brutus Beefcake via disqualification Bob Orton Jr. defeated Steve Lombardi Mr. Wrestling II defeated Les Thornton The Iron Sheik defeated Mr. Wrestling II The Junkyard Dog & Ivan Putski defeated Roddy Piper & Paul Orndorff in a Texas Tornado match Decent gate for this Cincinnati show, Hogan NOR Andre on the card. Piper was hot of course, but is Ivan Putski really drawing 8,000 in 1985? JYD got to take some credit for this one. WWF @ Miami, FL - Knight Center - January 29, 1985 (2,964) RT Reynolds defeated Aldo Marino Rusty Brooks defeated Joe Mirto Jim Neidhart defeated Rick McGraw Nikolai Volkoff defeated WWF Tag Team Champion Mike Rotundo WWF Tag Team Champion Barry Windham defeated the Iron Sheik Jimmy Snuka & The Junkyard Dog defeated Roddy Piper & Bob Orton Jr. Solid little house show in FLA headlined by JYD / Piper tags again. WWF @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Arena - February 1, 1985 (11,911) Bret Hart fought Jim Neidhart to a draw Mr. Wrestling II defeated Rene Goulet Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch defeated Jack & Jerry Brisco The Junkyard Dog defeated the Spoiler Ivan Putski defeated Paul Orndorff via disqualification WWF IC Champion Greg Valentine defeated Tito Santana in a lumberjack match Another impressive Detroit gate. Wonder how much of it is JYD vs. Spoiler and how much Tito vs. Greg. The Spoiler was big in Detroit at one time, so the fact he was put in there with JYD is interesting. WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - February 2, 1985 (15,550; sell out) Moondog Spot defeated Jose Luis Rivera Brutus Beefcake defeated Rick McGraw WWF Tag Team Champion Mike Rotundo defeated the Iron Sheik Nikolai Volkoff defeated WWF Tag Team Champion Barry Windham Paul Orndorff defeated Ivan Putski Don Muraco defeated George Wells Bret Hart defeated Mr. X WWF Women's Champion Wendi Richter defeated Judy Martin Andre the Giant & the Junkyard Dog defeated Ken Patera & Big John Studd in a Texas Tornado match Sell out at the Boston Garden. No Hogan on the card. Again, Andre / Studd was a money feud, but JYD in main event. WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - February 11, 1985 (15,217) David Schultz was fired after attacking Mr. T in the locker room and the audience during the show Mr. Wrestling II pinned Terry Gibbs Jesse Ventura pinned Les Thornton David Sammartino & Bret Hart defeated Jack Armstrong & Alexis Smirnoff Tito Santana defeated WWF IC Champion Greg Valentine via count-out Jim Neidhart pinned Rick McGraw Tony Atlas pinned the Spoiler Andre the Giant & the Junkyard Dog defeated Ken Patera & Big John Studd via disqualification Same feud, big gate in LA. Again no Hogan on the card. Mr. T likely advertised? WWF @ Peoria, IL - Civic Center - February 14, 1985 (12,000) Moondog Rex defeated Bobby Colt George Wells defeated Moondog Spot Don Muraco defeated Rick McGraw The Junkyard Dog defeated WWF IC Champion Greg Valentine via disqualification WWF Women's Champion Wendi Richter defeated Judy Martin Andre the Giant & Mad Dog Vachon defeated Big John Studd & Ken Patera via disqualification Another good gate. Okay, Andre / Studd, but JYD in feature matchup for IC title. No Hogan on card. WWF @ Indianapolis, IN - Convention Expo Center - February 16, 1985 (7,000; sell out) Roddy Piper defeated the Junkyard Dog at the 5-minute mark Andre the Giant & Mad Dog Vachon (sub. for Blackjack Mulligan) fought Big John Studd & Ken Patera to a double disqualification Sell out in AWA land. Mad Dog gotta be helping out there. But JYD vs. Piper on card. WWF @ St. Louis, MO - Arena - February 17, 1985 (8,500) Bret Hart pinned Terry Gibbs The Spoiler defeated Rick McGraw Bob Orton Jr. pinned Mad Dog Vachon WWF IC Champion Greg Valentine pinned Tito Santana in a lumberjack match after Brutus Beefcake interfered Ivan Putski pinned Johnny V The Iron Sheik pinned George Wells Brutus Beefcake pinned Tony Garea Andre the Giant & the Junkyard Dog fought Big John Studd & Ken Patera to a double disqualification Not as hot in St. Louis, but you gotta expect that. WWF @ Detroit, MI - Cobo Arena - February 22, 1985 (13,000; sell out) Bret Hart defeated Jerry Valiant Nikolai Volkoff defeated Swede Hanson Ivan Putski defeated Terry Gibbs Tony Atlas defeated Nikolai Volkoff via disqualification Andre the Giant & the Junkyard Dog defeated Ken Patera & Big John Studd in a Texas Tornado match This idea that Detroit was dead not entirely true is it. Ha ha. WWF @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - February 23, 1985 (17,500) The Cobra pinned Salvatore Bellomo at 7:11 Dick Murdoch pinned Rick McGraw at 8:35 Nikolai Volkoff pinned Swede Hanson at 10:20 Bret Hart pinned Jerry Valiant at 9:25 Ivan Putski pinned Terry Gibbs at 5:17 with the Polish Hammer Bruno & David Sammartino defeated Paul Orndorff & Bobby Heenan via disqualification at 15:00 when Orndorff brought a chair into the ring and attacked Bruno with it; Gorilla Monsoon then came into the ring and chopped Orndorff to make him stop, with David then clearing Orndorff & Heenan from the ring with the chair Johnny V pinned Tony Garea at 10:59 The Junkyard Dog defeated Roddy Piper via disqualification at 3:10 when Piper choked JYD with his own chain and shoved the referee Don Muraco (w/ Mr. Fuji) pinned George Wells at 8:40 Andre the Giant pinned Ken Patera at 4:25 Clearly Andre vs. Patera and JYD vs. Piper are featured, but Bruno is propping up this card. 17,000+ in Pittsburgh? That's Bruno all the way. Bruno country. Let's skip on one year to see how he was getting on in 1986 ... WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - January 11, 1986 (15,000; sell out) Televised on NESN - included Gorilla Monsoon & Jesse Ventura on commentary: Prime Time Wrestling - 2/24/86: Lanny Poffo pinned Terry Gibbs at 9:13 with a moonsault Prime Time Wrestling - 2/24/86: Scott McGhee pinned Moondog Spot at 12:51 with a roll up after Spot became distracted by referee Danny Davis who prevented him from using his bone as a weapon All American Wrestling - 2/16/86: Cousin Luke pinned Les Thornton at 3:28 with a sit-down splash after Thornton hit the corner Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated WWF IC Champion Tito Santana via count-out at 13:01 after throwing Santana into the front row after Santana was distracted helping Elizabeth back to her feet when she fell down as Savage pulled her in front of him (History of the Intercontinental Title) Prime Time Wrestling - 2/24/86: Roddy Piper & Bob Orton Jr. defeated Paul Orndorff & Bruno Sammartino via count-out at 8:40 when, as Piper and Sammartino brawled on the floor, Piper poked Bruno in the eye after avoiding a chair shot and slid back inside the ring (Bruno Sammartino: Wrestling's Living Legend) Prime Time Wrestling - 8/18/86: Terry Funk (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Pedro Morales at 11:14 after hitting him with Hart's megaphone (Best of the WWF Vol. 7) Prime Time Wrestling - 2/24/86: George Wells pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 9:37 with a flying shoulderblock Nikolai Volkoff & the Iron Sheik defeated the Junkyard Dog & Cpl. Kirchner at 11:47 when Sheik pinned Kirchner after Volkoff hit Kirchner with a chair from the outside Would put this down to the prospect of Piper vs. Bruno to be honest. WWF @ Oakland, CA - Coliseum - January 16, 1986 (12,000) Terry Gibbs defeated Guy Lambert Hercules defeated Steve Gatorwolf George Wells defeated Matt Borne Ted Arcidi defeated Alexis Smirnoff Dan Spivey defeated Tiger Chung Lee Adrian Adonis defeated Scott McGhee Terry Funk pinned the Junkyard Dog Randy Savage & Jesse Ventura defeated WWF IC Champion Tito Santana & Pedro Morales when Savage pinned Santana WWF Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid Paul Orndorff defeated Bob Orton Jr. via count-out This is a pretty big gate, and JYD vs. Funk was a featured feud. More the sort of thing you could point to as JYD drawing. Typically though, in 1986, he's programmed under Hogan or under Bruno. The gates are strong, but in almost every case you could point to Hogan or Bruno. Here's an exception: WWF @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - February 7, 1986 (13,000) Tony Garea pinned the Red Menace at 9:10 Hercules pinned SD Jones at 10:15 Sivi Afi pinned Barry O at 11:03 Cpl. Kirchner pinned Tiger Chung Lee at 9:16 King Tonga pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 12:20 Danny Spivey pinned Rene Goulet at 7:15 The Iron Sheik defeated George Steele via disqualification at 2:01 WWF Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid when Beefcake pinned Dynamite at 16:32 WWF IC Champion Tito Santana pinned Randy Savage at 5:02 The Junkyard Dog pinned Terry Funk at 11:31 Clearly JYD vs. Funk was the headline drawing match here. 13,000 not bad. No Hogan, no Bruno, no Andre. But look at what happens when Hogan is on the card: WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - February 8, 1986 (19,710; sell out) Televised on the PRISM Network - included Dick Graham & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary: George Skaaland pinned Ron Shaw with a sunset flip at 8:58 Pedro Morales pinned Rene Goulet at 11:56 with a reverse roll up Hercules pinned Scott McGhee at 8:44 with a backbreaker Cpl. Kirchner pinned the Iron Sheik at 7:47 after reversing a suplex attempt into an inside cradle Adrian Adonis (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned George Wells at 10:23 with the DDT The Junkyard Dog pinned Terry Funk (w/ Jimmy Hart) at 13:05 with a small package after Funk missed an attempt to hit JYD with the branding iron; after the bout, Funk & Hart attacked JYD, with Funk attempting to brand Junkyard Dog until JYD grabbed it away and chased both men from the ring with it WWF Tag Team Champions Brutus Beefcake & Greg Valentine (w/ Johnny V) defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid at 15:35 when Beefcake pinned Dynamite after Valentine reversed Dynamite's small package behind the referee's back Dan Spivey pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 5:32 with a bulldog WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated King Kong Bundy (w/ Bobby Heenan) via disqualification at 9:15 when Heenan interfered after the champion brought him into the ring; after the bout, Hogan cleared both men from the ring after Bundy knocked out two referees and accidentally hit the Avalanche on Heenan in the corner JYD vs. Funk can do 13,000, but Hogan on the card is worth +7,000. So at best you could say in 1986, JYD was a servicable fill-in or B-show babyface headline, but he wasn't going to draw the highest numbers. He could do 13,000, but not 19,000+. What about Nola? WWF @ New Orleans, LA - Superdome - March 7, 1986 (12,600) Debut in New Orleans Hillbilly Jim pinned Iron Mike Sharpe King Kong Bundy pinned Lanny Pofffo Uncle Elmer pinned Jesse Ventura WWF Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid The Junkyard Dog pinned Terry Funk WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned the Iron Sheik Well, 12,000 is okay. But how does that compare to peak Watts era JYD? This had Hogan on the card too. JYD vs. Funk didn't do more in Nola than it did in Philly. Here's a Philly card with no JYD and no Hogan ... WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - March 7, 1986 (19,000; sell out) Televised on the PRISM Network - included Gorilla Monsoon & Dick Graham on commentary: Jake Roberts pinned Jose Luis Rivera Hercules defeated George Skaaland Velvet McIntyre defeated Judy Martin Ricky Steamboat pinned Bob Orton Jr. at 11:32 with a roll up after Orton thought he had won the match by pinning Steamboat moments earlier, but the referee waived it off after noticing Steamboat's foot on the bottom rope; after the bout, Orton continued to attack Steamboat and hit a piledriver before also punching the referee; after the bout it was announced that Orton had been suspended for unsportman-like contact by the Philadelphia State Athletic Commission and was fined $5,000 Adrian Adonis pinned George Steele at 10:18 with a splash from the middle turnbuckle after Steele became distracted trying to put back together a picture of Miss Elizabeth that Adonis had tore up moments earlier Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper via disqualification at 4:54 when Bob Orton Jr. interfered with a chair as Orndorff had Piper in a Boston Crab; Orndorff was the double-teamed until Tony Atlas & Cpl. Kirchner made the save; moments later, it was announced Orton had been fined an additional $2,000 and had been suspended for his actions, even though it was mentioned later in the show Orndorff would face Orton at the 3/30 show Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Tony Atlas & Scott McGhee Nikolai Volkoff pinned Cpl. Kirchner Tito Santana defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) via count-out at 9:28 after hitting Savage with a chair on the floor So Savage vs. Tito with support from Piper vs. Orndorff did 19,000. Whereas JYD vs. Funk did only 13,000. Let's go to 1987. Mostly here he's headlining small B- or C-loop house shows of 2,500-5,000 attendence vs. Jake Roberts or Harley Race. On bigger shows, Hogan is mostly present. Here's a fairly typical card: WWF @ San Diego, CA - Sports Arena - February 9, 1987 (5,248) Jimmy Jack Funk defeated Mark Young The Iron Sheik defeated Lanny Poffo Demolition defeated B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell Ron Bass defeated Nick Kiniski Cpl. Kirchner defeated Nikolai Volkoff via disqualification Jim Neidhart defeated Dick Slater King Harley Race & Bob Orton Jr. defeated George Steele & the Junkyard Dog via disqualification Bret Hart won a bunkhouse battle royal We do get this no-Hogan MSG show though: WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 23, 1987 (18,317) Televised on the MSG Network - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary: Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Paul Roma pinned Salvatore Bellomo at 12:23 with a powerslam Prime Time Wrestling - 4/6/87: Demolition defeated the Islanders at 9:13 when Ax pinned Tama following the Decapitation behind the referee's back after Smash hit a clothesline on Tama (Best of the WWF Vol. 13) Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Koko B. Ware pinned Sika at 4:51 with a roll up following a dropkick to the back after sliding under the ring and coming out the other end; after the bout, Sika attacked Koko and threw him out of the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Tito Santana fought Butch Reed (w/ Slick) to a double disqualification at 12:10 when, as Slick attempted to interfere with his cane, Koko B. Ware came out and knocked Slick out of the ring; after the bout, Santana and Koko cleared the ring WWF Tag Team Champions Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart & Danny Davis) defeated B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell at 13:52 when Bret reversed a slam by Brunzell into a small package after Davis attacked Brunzell from behind; during the match, Jimmy Hart briefly joined the commentary team at ringside (The Hart Foundation) Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Outback Jack pinned Barry O with a bulldog at 3:33 Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: Jake Roberts defeated King Kong Bundy via count-out at 9:17 when Bundy pushed Roberts back inside the ring following a ringside brawl; after the bout, Bundy missed the Avalanche in the corner with Roberts then chasing Bundy, Heenan, and Jimmy Hart - who did guest commentary for the bout - backstage with Damien (Jake "The Snake" Roberts) Prime Time Wrestling - 3/9/87: The Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Pedro Morales at 11:58 with his feet on the ropes; Slick did guest commentary for the bout, subbing for Bobby Heenan Roddy Piper, the Junkyard Dog, & Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage, Adrian Adonis, & King Harley Race in an elimination match at 20:22 when Piper pinned Savage with an inside cradle after Savage missed his flying elbowdrop; Adonis and JYD fought to a double count-out at 7:50; Race pinned Steamboat at 11:42 after Savage interfered behind the referee's back and reversed Steamboat's inside cradle; Piper pinned Race at 15:43 after Savage accidentally hit his partner with a double axe handle; prior to the bout, Jimmy Hart, Miss Elizabeth, and Bobby Heenan left ringside; after the bout, Gorilla Monsoon interviewed Piper backstage (Piper's last appearance at MSG for 2 1/2 years) (Best of the WWF Vol. 11, WWE's Top 50 Superstars of All Time) You sense a bit of nervousness about lack of Hulk (or Andre) here, and look at how they load that main event. JYD AND Piper AND Steamboat AND Savage AND Race. They are making sure and triply sure. Points to a lack of faith in any one of them to draw the gate alone. So yeah, that's a start, people can look into it further, but my feeling is that JYD was a solid support main eventer during his WWF years, but not strong enough to draw houses alone. Basically dwarfed by Hogan, but some of the numbers on JYD-less and Hogan-less (and Bruno-less and Andre-less) cards show up that WWF could draw without any of those guys at the time. The 19,000 Philly show with Savage vs. Tito on top shows that. Savage and Piper both seem like "bigger draws" based on the attendences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Very good episode but a couple points: - I've heard Dylan talk a lot about how if certain candidates don't get in HOF this year, he might become an even stricter voter in the future. It seems a little weird to me to judge glaring omissions to the HOF as some kind of reason to raise your personal bar for voting. I know the logic is "If ___ can't get in, that sets a new higher standard, so I can't vote for anyone I see as a lesser candidate" but at the same time, I know there are candidates that you don't feel deserve to be in that are in. Shouldn't that lower your voting standards using the same logic? I can see valid reasons for no longer participating in the HOF all together, and I can also see valid reasons for not changing your standards and just trying to get in as many deserving candidates in as you can, but this seems like a weird middle ground to me. - When it was mentioned how Meltzer doesn't understand different business structures for wrestling companies, you mentioned how PWG was an exception. This was in the context of Meltzer possibly not giving Big Daddy his due. I agree that Dave's grasp of the older British scene is far from perfect, and that Big Daddy has a case to be in on historical significance alone. In the case of the PWG crack about Dave though, I'd just like to say that I don't think that Dave would be fonder of Big Daddy's case even if he accepted that the British model worked as well for it as the PWG model worked for PWG. I mean, Dave isn't sold on Big Daddy's HOF case, but he isn't campaigning for Super Dragon either. I just think that Dave isn't always great when it comes to looking for context when it comes to drawing, sometimes he just likes big numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 - When it was mentioned how Meltzer doesn't understand different business structures for wrestling companies, you mentioned how PWG was an exception. This was in the context of Meltzer possibly not giving Big Daddy his due. I agree that Dave's grasp of the older British scene is far from perfect, and that Big Daddy has a case to be in on historical significance alone. In the case of the PWG crack about Dave though, I'd just like to say that I don't think that Dave would be fonder of Big Daddy's case even if he accepted that the British model worked as well for it as the PWG model worked for PWG. I mean, Dave isn't sold on Big Daddy's HOF case, but he isn't campaigning for Super Dragon either. I just think that Dave isn't always great when it comes to looking for context when it comes to drawing, sometimes he just likes big numbers. But that's the problem, he's never going to get concrete numbers for things as it pertains to Daddy, because they simply don't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 So where is the Wrestling Culture Hall of Fame going to be located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 - When it was mentioned how Meltzer doesn't understand different business structures for wrestling companies, you mentioned how PWG was an exception. This was in the context of Meltzer possibly not giving Big Daddy his due. I agree that Dave's grasp of the older British scene is far from perfect, and that Big Daddy has a case to be in on historical significance alone. In the case of the PWG crack about Dave though, I'd just like to say that I don't think that Dave would be fonder of Big Daddy's case even if he accepted that the British model worked as well for it as the PWG model worked for PWG. I mean, Dave isn't sold on Big Daddy's HOF case, but he isn't campaigning for Super Dragon either. I just think that Dave isn't always great when it comes to looking for context when it comes to drawing, sometimes he just likes big numbers. But that's the problem, he's never going to get concrete numbers for things as it pertains to Daddy, because they simply don't exist. That's why I think the case to be made is just to forget about debating his drawing record and go for "Big Daddy is so strong in historical significance by being a house hold name that he should get in on that alone. He's to historical significance as Daniel Bryan is to in ring work. " Every other argument is getting too muddled, when the strongest argument for him might be the simplest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 - When it was mentioned how Meltzer doesn't understand different business structures for wrestling companies, you mentioned how PWG was an exception. This was in the context of Meltzer possibly not giving Big Daddy his due. I agree that Dave's grasp of the older British scene is far from perfect, and that Big Daddy has a case to be in on historical significance alone. In the case of the PWG crack about Dave though, I'd just like to say that I don't think that Dave would be fonder of Big Daddy's case even if he accepted that the British model worked as well for it as the PWG model worked for PWG. I mean, Dave isn't sold on Big Daddy's HOF case, but he isn't campaigning for Super Dragon either. I just think that Dave isn't always great when it comes to looking for context when it comes to drawing, sometimes he just likes big numbers. But that's the problem, he's never going to get concrete numbers for things as it pertains to Daddy, because they simply don't exist. That's why I think the case to be made is just to forget about debating his drawing record and go for "Big Daddy is so strong in historical significance by being a house hold name that he should get in on that alone. He's to historical significance as Daniel Bryan is to in ring work. " Every other argument is getting too muddled, when the strongest argument for him might be the simplest. We do have SOME information though, such as the Wembley attendances for the three shows he headlined. Also it's known that he charged a fee of up to 50% of the house to work non Joint shows. That's a crazy number, far bigger than what Hogan got coming in to WCW. I'm not disagreeing with you, but the more things we have to throw out there, the stronger his candidacy will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Farmer Posted October 21, 2015 Report Share Posted October 21, 2015 Tonight I'm going to be the guest on the Wrestling Observer show with Dave and Bryan. We're going to talk Hall of Fame and I hope we get around to talking Big Daddy and even Carlos Colon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puropotsy Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Sounds great Matt, looking forward to listening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Should be noted that dave abstains from Europe. Or at least he has in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheapshot Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Tonight I'm going to be the guest on the Wrestling Observer show with Dave and Bryan. We're going to talk Hall of Fame and I hope we get around to talking Big Daddy and even Carlos Colon. I know you didn't get chance to talk Daddy with Dave & Bryan, but please Matt, can you emphasise the below point I posted a few weeks ago to Dave, as he still doesn't get the differences between US & UK culture. I always think a good reference point when trying to get non Brits to understand the culture and scale of UK entertainment compared to the US is to look at music. If you look up any music tour from the 60s/70s/early80s of the biggest bands in the world, you see them selling out huge stadiums/arenas in the US, then when they get back over to the UK it's the same small theaters and halls that the wrestling was using. Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Day_at_the_Races_Tour#Tour_dates . The Beatles were no more of a draw in Britain than Big Daddy, if you're looking at pure numbers. Which is obviously silly but gets the point across that there's more to the cultural impact of something than just attendance numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Farmer Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 We'll be discussing Big Daddy in a week or two. We're doing the series in multiple series as an hour or so is just not enough time to discuss them all. So yes I'll bring up this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Tonight I'm going to be the guest on the Wrestling Observer show with Dave and Bryan. We're going to talk Hall of Fame and I hope we get around to talking Big Daddy and even Carlos Colon. I know you didn't get chance to talk Daddy with Dave & Bryan, but please Matt, can you emphasise the below point I posted a few weeks ago to Dave, as he still doesn't get the differences between US & UK culture. I always think a good reference point when trying to get non Brits to understand the culture and scale of UK entertainment compared to the US is to look at music. If you look up any music tour from the 60s/70s/early80s of the biggest bands in the world, you see them selling out huge stadiums/arenas in the US, then when they get back over to the UK it's the same small theaters and halls that the wrestling was using. Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Day_at_the_Races_Tour#Tour_dates . The Beatles were no more of a draw in Britain than Big Daddy, if you're looking at pure numbers. Which is obviously silly but gets the point across that there's more to the cultural impact of something than just attendance numbers. This is a fantastic post. Never thought about it that way before. It's true though. Manchester Trade Hall, Hammersmith Odean, Royal Albert Hall ... none of them huge venues. Hadn't occured to me before that the idea of the stadium rock tour didn't migrate to the UK until significantly after the Beatles's Shea Stadium concert in 1965. And even in the 70s and 80s a lot of acts played smaller and more historic venues here rather than stadiums, even on tours where they were playing massive stadiums everywhere else. So like in 1983 when Bowie played MSG, Philly Spectrum, 80,000+ crowd in New Zealand, etc. etc., he still did the 2,100 crowd in the Hammersmith in London. Or when McCartney and Wings did their world tour in 75-6, they played MSG, Boston Garden, Chicago Stadium, etc. in US leg but UK was all the classic old-school venues: Bristol Hippodrome, Liverpool Empire Theatre, Manchester Tradehall, Hammersmith Odeon. Kind of strange, cos in 1983 Bowie could have probably sold out Wembley twice over and same with Wings in 75. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 I guess this is where I'll make my argument for Brock as a HOFer while also trying not to troll Dylan out to have his counterpoints, although I understand the reason why he leans that way on Lesnar. I'm going to do this based on the HOF criteria, which is in-ring work, drawing power, and historical significance. So here goes: -In-ring work aspect I don't think needs to be argued, as previously stated, from a quality standpoint. Quantity of quality is a limiting factor, but I think a lot of what is being put on Brock has to do with him up and leaving for eight years before coming back. As a wrestler, only has six years under his belt really (7-8 if you want to talk OVW), but I think he's in the conversation along with guys like Akiyama as being very good from the very start. That being said, he has his company's matches of the year for each of the last three years, and the match he got out of Taker last night is a downright miracle in some aspects. His quality can not be denied, and when talking about guys like Tamura or Han, even though stylistically they are different and the atmosphere as to how they got to that particular number of matches might be different, on a purely comparable match-by-match basis, he's got more than enough. -The drawing power is a hang-up that was what made me do this in the first place, with Dylan's argument about what he's getting paid being a detriment to the company. I agree with him there, but in reality, that's hamstringing Brock for doing things his way. He wanted limited dates, he got limited dates. He wanted a comparable or even better than salary than his UFC contract, he got that, too. It is a classic overreaction for a talent based around a promoter's desire to dig into the past because he doesn't take the time to create new stars or take advantage of guys who could be stars like he once did. When he was at the top of the card during the first parts of his career, he was definitely a sizable draw, but he wasn't a slam dunk as a draw, either. Now, this is where the MMA argument truly splits and I'm still having a hard time trying to decipher it, to be honest, although I feel like it should be a similar argument to his in-ring work. He's been presented as a main attraction and as a draw, but at the same time, asking him to live up to the money he's making is completely undercutting him. That's not even on Brock. It's Vince paying that much for a limited attraction guy in the first place. His post-MMA drawing power might not be as considerable as it was in the UFC, but he's still been someone they've weighed on plenty for and he's come through way more often than he has. Buy rates when he was near or at the top of the cards was good, and he did pop the non-Network cards well. I think more than perhaps anyone on the ballot, he's a product of his drawing environment and can be an easy scapegoat for the down times. I don't even look at his UFC drawing power because I'm not gonna be one of those guys to consider it, but his UFC background has transferred some to his WWE drawing capabilities, booking be damned. Since beating Taker, I'd say the booking has been much better to show his ability to draw, but it's not outwardly apparent to the point where it's a lock to say he's a top-flight draw. Bottom line, though, looking at him as direct return on his investment in a company that STILL doesn't know what to do with its Network revenue 18 months after the fact is a tough knock on him. -The historical significance part is the one part that I'm fairly confident is what pushes me over the top on him, as there's probably nobody currently going right now outside of established guys like Cena and Taker where it's obvious that he's going to be someone looked back at fondly. However, his significance is almost directly tied to the state of the business at the time, where he came in when the company was at a lull, popped it for a year before Trips killed his momentum dead, and only got going again after what ended up being one of the more gutsier booking decisions in a long time with him going over Cena. I think he'll end up looking better as the years go on, but I don't think it's as cloudy now as people make it out to be. His significance currently can't be questioned, and only the decision-makers stop it from being more obvious than it already is. That's a lot like my ROI drawing argument, but I don't think you can put on Brock what Vince, Dunn and Co. are too stupid to figure out sometimes. I will say this: He's not a guy I would put #1 on a ballot of 10 guys right now, but he's someone I feel confident casting a vote for, and someone who ends up looking a lot better than so many of the other modern/Japanese candidates that are being talked about. I understand many want to look at longevity (which is the only argument I'd hear for Sting, even though it's now obvious that basically his entire career was spent as a secondary draw) but one can be significant in a short period of time. I was more qualitative here than quantitative (mainly for time and tl;dr sake) but the idea here is to say that he's definitely a viable candidate, albeit not a slam dunk. 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Matt Farmer Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Going to be chatting with Dave and Bryan tonight, so if we get to Big Daddy I will bring this up. It's something that I have discussed in the past as well. In the future I want to take a closer look at Otto Wanz too. Some will say he was horrible in the ring, and at times I would agree. But I've seen enough acceptable to even really good matches with him. If we were to compare him to Big Daddy on a cultural basis he's not close, but at times Wanz was a very good draw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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