WWE Vs. ROH Vs. TNA

[Coffey]

Instead of talking about Raw or iMPACT!'s ratings changing by .2 or talking about Vince saying "nigga" or Smackdown being "offensive" I wanted to have a different conversation. I think this forum has the best ratio of "intelligence to ignorance" when it comes to discussing wrestling, so this is where I'm posting it at.

 

I was having this discussion with a couple of my friends the other day. I thought we could use a new thread here, so I thought I'd make this. We were discussing the "big three" in the current North American wrestling scene. I was talking about my love for ROH and how if they weren't around in '05 I might've abandoned wrestling altogether. My friend from Ft. Wayne, IN, Capen, was in town for the holidays and he stopped by and was going on and on about TNA and how he watches all of their shows on his computer but how he "still hasn't watched the WWE Homecoming show."

 

Then the conversation turned into what each product provides.

 

WWE = More soap operas, less wrestling.

ROH = More wrestling, less soap operas

TNA = Less wrestling than ROH, more than WWE, less soap operas than WWE, more than ROH

 

So, I was just curious which promotion was closer to what you guys wanted out of a product? It's not to say that each promotion can't provide you with a good promo, match, etc. It's not like ROH doesn't have any soap opera angles or WWE doesn't have any matches. They do. However, using the formula above, which product would you lean more towards? Which of the three do you actually watch the most?

 

Myself, I watch WWE the most because it's on the most. I watch Raw and most PPV's. Occasionally, if I read that something happened that I'm interested in, I'll even download Smackdown. I like TNA and I do watch iMPACT! but that's only an hour a week. I check out all of their PPVs too, so I watch them as much as WWE it's just that they offer less in terms of hours. ROH, I watch all that I can. Especially anything from '05 or involving James Gibson. Of course, I can only watch what is there, so it's limited when compared to the other two feds.

 

When it was WWF Vs. WCW Vs. ECW, the overall scene was different. It wasn't comparible in the way that I'm comparing the promotions now. WWF & WCW were trying to "out do" each other. It could be argued that WCW had the better wrestling because of their cruiserweight lower card though. Still, they were both soap opera driven. ECW was like the "underground" fed that "cool" (or people whom thought they were cool, too good for WWF, etc.) watched. It had soap operas, it had hardcore wrestling, etc. It couldn't compete wtih WCW or WWF but it had it's own demo much like ROH now.

 

Now, I can enjoy a good storyline. Any wrestling fan, I hope, can. I can be entertained by any promotion depending on what they're doing at the time. That being said, currently, I do enjoy Ring of Honor the best. I like what they're doing. I like the characters. I like how the promotion is driven by matches. They have the spotfest matches, the comedy matches and the "main event" matches that are supposed to be good. I legit hate Prince Nana and think he's a tremendous heel. They provide, to me, exactly what I want out of wrestling.

 

WWE has a lot of guys that I enjoy watching. They have guys on their roster, whom in the past, have more than entertained me, so I know they're capable of it. Currently, though, they're not my cup of tea. I watch Raw out of habit. I watch it with friends because that's what we do on Mondays. Besides, if I didn't watch it, I'd be lost the whole week when reading and posting on message forums. I feel like I can get into the characters and whatnot on WWE it's just that I don't usually like most of them. I like some, like Triple H (because I'm a mark) but it's hard for me to get into whom WWE usually starts to push. I'm not real big on Randy Orton. I don't like John Cena. Masters is starting to grow on me but he's certainly not amazing. I like the Boogeyman and what has he even done? With WWE they're like "you like this guy." You either do and you like what you're watching or you don't and you hate it. With ROH, the guys go out and wrestle and you find yourself liking guys because they don't suck.

 

TNA I'm, right now, indifferent to. I'm not real high on Jeff Jarrett although I admit that I like him more now because he's aligned with Gail Kim & AMW. I like the X-Division but I don't like how it's just the cruiserweight division. I mean, yeah, Samoa Joe is thrown into it now but it still has that lowercard vibe to it. Even after giving AJ Styles multiple World Title reigns, it just doesn't work. Hopefully Joe can change that. I just wish the X-Division was more like ROH's Pure Title division. A midcard division with good matches. That's sort of what it is but it involves a lot more high-flying instead of ground work and submissions.

 

Here's a post from one of my friends from a discussion that we had the other day:

 

So I was talking to Josh today, and I mentioned that as soon as I got my interent back, I downloaded the first SpikeTV Impact and the RAW Homecoming show.  Since then I have watched that Impact and downloaded all the others.  I watched part of Bound For Glory as well.

 

Now all this time I've had the first RAW on USA and I have had zero motivation to watch it.  Up until I saw those Impacts I had been kind of excited to watch RAW again.  I missed wrestling and while I don't overall enjoy the WWF product, I think there is enough entertainment in it to justify watching it.

 

TNA has produced a better show for my tastes since getting on Spike.  While I don't agree with everything they've done (Jeff Jarret champion forever, ok guys), I think they have more going for them right now.

 

Now is this a workrate vs. storyline arguement?  I'm not really sure because even though I hate most of the storylines in the WWF, I attribute it more to bad writers than to that style being un-entertaining.

 

But then again, I'd rather AJ and Daniels fight over a belt then any elaborate storyline about how Daniels has been screwing AJ's sister all the while doing his mom too only for her to be a man.  I think the main problem is that we are spoiled by too many storylines.

 

You start off with the attitude era with Austin and then it's popular.  Now how do you top it?  Ok, so the Rock turns on the world and sides with Vince.  Great, now how do you top it?  Ok, so HHH drugs up Stephine and marries her before Test, but she's really just playing along the whole time to screw over Test and her father.  Great how do you top that?  Etc. etc. etc.

 

TNA keeps it simple and I like that.  There aren't a lot of big storylines with OMG twists because it's not entertaining anymore.  That's why when AMW turns heel, it's a big deal.  Because it doesn't happen every show.  I also like the fact that most of the matches (that don't involve Jeff Jarret) don't end in run-ins and screwjobs.  I wanted a good X-Division match and I'll get it without any random retarded ending.

I've have a lot of conversations with the above poster about TNA. He's the friend from Ft. Wayne that I mentioned earlier, Capen. We've talked about everything TNA from Don West on color commentary (even with me playing devil's advocate just so we could converse) to Jeff Jarrett: Main Eventer (which I struggle to defend). We had a long and winded conversation about Bound for Glory about me talking about how it let me down and him being, generally, excited about it. That conversation came down, eventually, to him saying he hadn't seen the other PPVs from this year and I said most of them were better with less fuck-ups. Capen has seen very little ROH so we can't really talk about that. I just tried to explain to him a couple of things. The only exposure that he has to the product is him watching some of the ROH Comp. tape that I had Downhome make me awhile ago and a couple of matches that he's downloaded. I really don't know where he stands on the product but he seemed to like the Briscoe Vs. Briscoe match.

 

My other friend, Jeremy, has started watching wrestling again recently. Mainly because of TNA. He used to be real big into WCW when they were around. His favorite wrestler is Psicosis, so obviously he's a big fan of cruiserweight matches. He likes the X-Division and was impressed with AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels. He doesn't read the internet about wrestling so he's not "persuaded" by the opinions of others. You could say he's a mark but he does have a grasp of a lot of things that go on just from hanging around my circle of friends. He likes what he likes and it really only matters what happens on-screen to him. It certainly provides a differing viewpoint in the discussions. That being said, he was turned off by Jeff Jarrett in general and the Ultimate X match because of all the mistakes with the X falling down. When he talks about WWE, it's usually in regards to Steve Austin or asking "is the brand split over yet?" I don't know if he's seen any ROH. Still, to me, it's interesting that TNA pulled him back in. Of course, Eric and I might be a big reason for that.

 

Alright, I remember one time when I still had an active blog over on TSM Rudo said that my posts generally tend to be "a bit scatter-brained" and "a bother to read." I can certainly see where he was coming from now.

 

That being said, he also said to, basically "save some discussion for later. You don't have to say it all in the first post." So, that's what I'm going to do now. I'd like to talk about the good and the bad about all three promotions. Compare them. Compare the commentary, the common man appeal, the wrestling, the storylines, etc. I think it could be interesting.

[Coffey]

I wanted to add something. I'm a big fan of women being involved in the storylines. To me, all the best storylines, or at least a lot of them, involve women. For example, I liked the story told during the Macho Man Vs. Ultimate Warrior match at the end with Elizabeth and Sherri. I liked the "Love Triangle" with Triple H Vs.Kurt Angle over Stephanie. I even liked the Jericho & Trish angle. That's why I'm usually pushing for shit like Traci having a bigger role in TNA or talking about how "I like Maria" in WWE. Hell, I was a mark for the whole Jade Chung & The Embassey shit in ROH.

 

Of course, not all of them are gold, like Stacy being pregnant in WCW but still, I like a lot of them. As with any other storyline, it has to make sense and make you care. If it features bad writing or bad talkers it probably won't catch on. Other than the nWo & Austin Vs. McMahon I think all of my favorite storylines have been based around love or something like it in some way. So, in that regard, I do think that I enjoy soap operas in wrestling, I just want the soap operas to build to something and have a payoff that matters. I don't want two people to feud over a woman and then have her turn on the person she leaves with in a month. It needs to have long term effects. Why does Trish never mention Christian anymore? Or Tomko? Why does Vis no longer care to get with Trish? How come Kane doesn't seek his revenge on Edge AND Matt Hardy?

 

[goodhelmet]

Of the three, I lean to ROH because of their emphasis on matches and I enjoy watching most of the guys on their roster. Plus, in the last year, they have delivered Jushin Liger, Kobashi, Bobby Heenan, Mick Foley, Ricky Steamboat, and Jim Cornette... all personal favorites. If you look at my list for 2005 MOTYCs (none of which I personally selected), ROH has been putting on the hits so to speak. I have enjoyed the TNA TV but not the TNA wrestling if that makes sense. With WWE, except for the Eddie tributes, I do not watch WWE television or their PPVs. I wait until they are released and either trade for them or have EJ make me Best of comps. WWE has lost me as a paying customer for their current product (DVD releases are a different story though ). With Eddie gone and with little direction for Rey, I have no real interest in the direction of the company. I may never watch again... unless of couse I see that Mysterio push we have all been debating ad nauseum.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I'd rank it

 

1. TNA

2. WWE

3. ROH

 

Of course, ROH being lower than the WWE means next to nothing since I can't find much redeeming value for either company and what differs them on this list is that I give WWE 5-10 minutes of my time and I don't give ROH any anymore. Which is funny cause a lot of the guys I like in TNA are the guys who came from ROH (Aries, Shelley, Joe). LOTC and I have gotten the past 2 TNA PPVs, and overall I'd say they were worth it and enjoyable (more BFG than Genesis). TNA has its problems, of which I've discussed before, but their matches are fun. I like being able to watch a company that still has that desire in them to put on the best wrestling show they can.

 

Now, I guess ROH does that too, but the pretense is too much. They have to be the most annoying promotion I've ever seen. The majorithy of their matches are unbearable to watch (for me), as they come off so fake. TNA is pretty fake too, but TNA doesn't have the reputation for being THE BEST WRESTLING EVER-RERERERRE!! and part of that plays into my distain for them. TNA has a bit of a charm to it, maybe it's how they're such underdogs, while there is absolutely nothing charming about ROH. They're nothing more than poseurs.

 

Now, I'd usually throw out "UFC" right now and how its superior in every way, but I'll leave that for another time and place.

[Coffey]

My biggest complaints with ROH are the same complaints that I have with TNA. The crowd and the commentary. In both promotions, the commentary is bad. In TNA, you have to hear "this is the greatest thing I've ever seen" over and over and in ROH you have to hear "this is a match of the year candidate" (two minutes into the match mind you) and "be sure to check out ROHwrestling.com for all your shoot promo needs!" There's just not a lot of calling the match.

 

The lighting and audio are really bad in ROH too but it's an indy fed that puts on quality wrestling so I can certainly look past that.

 

As far as the crowds are concerned, I dislike the TNA Orlando crowd more than the ROH crowds mainly because ROH at least travels and gets different fans that are trying to get themselves over. Both ROH and TNA fans seem to be more worried about coming off as "smart" instead of, you know, just being vocal fans. Heel/Face alignment goes out the window. Dueling chants are bad, especially when one of the wrestlers is heel. I don't know what the hell the Orlando crowd is doing with their "Abyss..WHOA!" and "Bentley Bounce" crap. I really don't know if it's better or worse than having "dead" crowds. In Japan, when crowds are quiet, it comes off as respectful.

 

I do like the ROH matches though. Unless there's a lot of spots being blown, which does happen when you have guys like Jack Evans wrestling on each show, but I enjoy their main events more than any other promotion right now. I'm not real high on each match in the main event slot having to go at least twenty minutes, WWE style though. I think the times should vary a lot more. A "surprise" win early in a match wouldn't be too bad every now and then. A TNA main event that ended without a run-in, ref bump, etc. would be nice too.

[sek69]

One thing I noticed in my newfound exposure to ROH is they tend to have a lot of wrestling exibitions, to the point of looking like the guys are in slow motion in order to ensure every spot is done correctly, rather than giving the appearance of a competitive match.

[Coffey]

They always seem to do new, innovative spots though. It gives me a reason to keep checking them out. Especially in 3-way matches where they look for new ways to do spots involving all three guys. In WWE, you can tell when a match is supposed to be good because it goes at least fifteen minutes and has each guy kicking out of the others finish. In ROH, it can be a throwaway undercard match and still impress. Even if it's just an eight minute match, a couple of neat spots, maybe a little humor, and you're entertained and lost in the match before you know it.

 

It's like, I can look at a TNA or WWE card and tell you which matches will be good and which matches won't. Usually, you'll be pretty close. In ROH, sometimes it could be a match that you completely write off and it'll turn out good. I know that I've done that a few times with Nigel McGuiness, Spanky & Colt Cabana for example.

 

I know what you're talking about though. I think CM Punk suffers from that a lot. It's like he's too patient when seemingly setting up the next sequence of moves or something. Like he has to slow down. It seemed like Samoa Joe did it against Liger in TNA too.

[Guest savagerulz]

As poor as the product is overall compared to five years ago I'll still have to go with WWE. Well, Raw to be exact. I couldn't care less about Smackdown. That's not to say I love Raw, but more there is so little out there that suits my tastes that Raw is the best by default. The fact they have two hours of TV every single week helps in the sense they have much more time for all the good stuff to add up over a month than any other company does.

 

I like some aspects of TNA, but seem to have lost a lot of interest in it over the last year or so. The move to Orlando was the start of it really. Among other things I absolutely despise the Orlando crowd, trying to get themselves over and not even bothering about the actual show. That "whoooooaahhh....Abyss" chant is the most retarded thing ever. Stop creating gimmicks for yourselves - that's the wrestlers jobs.

 

As one-off shows I enjoy watching most parts of the TNA PPV's, but if I was actually following it fully and being asked to buy the shows I don't think I'd have bought one yet. For me there's too much focus on "this match will be awesome, buy the PPV!" rather than making me care who actually wins something. Of course that becomes near impossible with the "cheer for everyone except Jarrett" crowd. The way they announce almost the whole card the night after the last PPV doesn't help either, because it means feuds are being built on the basis of matchmaking a lot of the time. With one hour a week there's no real way around it though, so they just need to hope for a better timeslot. And like I said, they desperately need to get out of Universal Studios sooner rather than later, for a whole variety of reasons.

 

I just don't like RoH. A combination of smarky crowds (even worse than the TNA one a lot of the time) and the general pretentious nature of the whole company just doesn't appeal to me. I'll always remember getting the first five shows when everyone was blowing smoke up their ass about all these MOTY's they were having, and out of all five shows I only really enjoyed a grand total of one match (Low Ki vs Am Drag on Show 2). The rest I found either totally overrated (the three-way main event from the debut show) or generic indy rubbish (pretty much all of the undercards). Later I ended up buying another 15 shows in a huge bulk deal that ended up costing me only around $1 per tape and still didn't like it, so never bothered getting any more. I've seen matches on comps every now and again like the CM Punk/Samoa Joe series (falls into the totally overrated category) and nothing managed to convince me to give it another try.

 

As for other indies. CZW is 100% awful (yes, every last bit of it), IWA:MS is just embarassing to watch with their double-figure crowds, Memphis is fun in a cheesy sort of way, and NWA: Wildside is/was your pretty bog standard indy promotion.

[Mad Dog]

TNA is the top promotion to me. For all of their problems they put on excellent top to bottom shows on PPV. They've had a marvelous year. Yeah the Jarrett stuff is annoying but it's not like he's all over the shows or anything. If Jarrett as champion is the biggest flaw the company has then it's not that bad to me. Heel America's Most Wanted has been excellent. They really found the niche for them, especially James Storm. Abyss has also been great recently. I'd say he's the 4th or 5th best worker in the company. The carry jobs he's pulled off with Sabu, Lance Hoyt and others continues to show he's overlooked because he's hoss size.

 

RoH had me briefly but they've lost me with things that even after a few years they still do. They still have those stupid thrown together 4 ways on their shows. The undercards are still filled with 100 lb. kids who I could probably beat up. I'm not one of those bigger = better guys but some of the guys they throw out there just can't be taken seriously. I hate the crowds and announcing as well. As much shit as TNA takes for announcing they're at least excited about the product. The RoH guys just sound like they're going through the motions most of the time. TNA's crowds take a lot of shit too but they at least give wrestlers a fucking chance. The RoH crowds will just shit on whoever doesn't meet their personal standards. It's also annoying that they crow about how smart a crowd they are then cream themselves over the scramble matches and then sit on their hands for the actual good shows. Plus I would punch Green Lantern Fan in the face if I ever met him in real life or at least spit on him.

 

WWF, I gave up on them a long time ago. They've shown no ability to get better and most of my favorites are heading out the door anyways.

[sek69]

TNA's my favorite promotion right now, it's not perfect but it's pretty much exactly where it needs to be at the moment. They've been smart to resist the "OMG GOTTA BEAT VINCE~!" mindset that drives so many would-be challengers out of business. They're doing their own thing and just letting their product do the shit-talking for them.

 

I like what I've seen from ROH for the most part, but I definately agree that you don't have to be a hoss mark to notice they really need to stop having guys who look like the before pics in weightlifting mags in the undercard. ROH has too many guys who look like they should be bagging groceries in the opening matches. The too-cool-for-school attitude the crowds have irks me too. I like when fans get into the action but like savagerulz said it's like the fans are trying to get themselves over more than the wrestlers.

 

As far as WWE goes, Joey Styles has made RAW about a zillion times easier to watch now. I always was a mark for him just because he reminds me of Gordon Solie in how when he called a match he knew the histories of everyone involved and the name of any move that could possibly be busted out in a match. Little stuff like him mentioning HHH's quad injury when his opponent was working the leg is something you haven't heard in WWF/E commentary since Gorilla and Jesse called the action.

 

You may have noticed I have yet to mention the WWE in ring product so far, and for good reason. While there's guys who I dig on both brands, I'm afraid to get emotionally invested in anyone on the roster without knowing they've passed the msyterious approval test and won't just get cut off at the knees and released.

[Mad Dog]

The other thing that bugs me about RoH is match length. It's impossible to care about the first 5-10 minutes of anything in the promotion when you know it's ultimately meaningless. They also have no clue about match placement as they'll open shows with bathroom break matches or have an opener calibur match in what should be the cool down match after a really good one. It makes sitting through a show really hard.

[Guest Some Guy]

It's pretty much gotten to the point with me that I watch Raw purely out of habit. I'd watch TNA much more if it wasn't on Sat nights. I;ve enjoyed the ROH stuff that GH has sent mein the past.

 

There are certain aspects of all three that I like and dislike.

 

WWE needs to allow guys other than HBK, Angle, and HHH to go out and work more than 5 minute TV matches. Let Rob Conway go out and have a 10 minute competetive match with Val Venis and it will get both guys, who are way under-pushed over. They also need to get off the fence and either become a wrestling company or an entertainment company. They've been riding the line between "Attitude" and "New Generation" style for too long and need to establish a new identity. Preferably one that included pushing guys who weren't around for the "New Generation" era.

 

TNA needs to improve their ME picture. Right now it is a bunch of WWE mid-carders. They need to get JJ, Rhyno, and Hardy out of the top mix and let Joe, Styles, etc... in there and and put them over the former WWE guys. TNA should be showcasing it's stars, not Vince's leftovers.

 

ROH should get on TV so I can watch them more. I don't really see them as anything more than a glorified Indy at the moment. But they have proven to be a very good feeder promotion for TNA and to a lesser extent WWE. I think it is really important to have a non-WWE owned farm system so that guys can actually learn to work, rather than learning to work WWE's plodding and repetative style.

[Loss]

I think it's ridiculous to categorize wrestling into angles, promos and matches, because it's all part of the overall package, and I can guarantee you that no one within the business sees it that way. Everything done outside the ring should be done to build to something inside the ring, and I do agree with that. But wrestling has *always* been a soap opera, and there's just as much story in ROH as there is in WWE, only it takes on a different form. I don't want no-nonsense wrestling, because wrestling is supposed to be nonsense.

 

In short, any vision of wrestling that places angles and matches on anything less than a level playing field is a false one.

[Loss]

The other thing that bugs me about RoH is match length.  It's impossible to care about the first 5-10 minutes of anything in the promotion when you know it's ultimately meaningless.  They also have no clue about match placement as they'll open shows with bathroom break matches or have an opener calibur match in what should be the cool down match after a really good one.  It makes sitting through a show really hard.

This is a good point. As strange as it sounds to say, promotions should try to book at least 1-2 bad matches on every card. Nothing gets over unless it stands out from the pack, and the best way to make a great match stand out is to surround it with other stuff that you know isn't going to upstage it.

[Resident Evil]

The other thing that bugs me about RoH is match length.  It's impossible to care about the first 5-10 minutes of anything in the promotion when you know it's ultimately meaningless.  They also have no clue about match placement as they'll open shows with bathroom break matches or have an opener calibur match in what should be the cool down match after a really good one.  It makes sitting through a show really hard.

This is a good point. As strange as it sounds to say, promotions should try to book at least 1-2 bad matches on every card. Nothing gets over unless it stands out from the pack, and the best way to make a great match stand out is to surround it with other stuff that you know isn't going to upstage it.

So very true but you have to be careful when you go this route. Very careful. Diversity is the most important thing I think.

 

 

WWE I'm disgusted with but I still probably like them the best overall of the 3 mentioned.

 

TNA can be good. They could take over as my fav of the 3 if I start watching them a little bit more

 

ROH sucks. The fans suck. the ring sucks, the believability sucks and the matches from what I see are always overrated. It never fails to happen. I watch one of their critically acclaimed matches and it does nothing for me. One of their rescent matches has commonly gotten 5 stars. I watched it and couldn't even give it one and a half stars.

 

 

That being said there have been some matches I've enjoyed. Kobashi vs Joe was a lot of fun and a good 3 1/2 star match which I believe most people would enjoy.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

I am working up the nerve to watch Kobashi/Joe. I like both wrestlers, but the crowd... egads...

 

I dunno if putting a _bad_ match on the card, because a bad match doesn't really accomplish anything (especially with _that_ crowd). I dunno if you meant a stinker of a match or just a match that wasn't meant to blow away the crowd, but you can still accomplish something with an "ok" match. But your point, as usual, is spot on.

[Slasher]

Putting the match on mute isn't an option, Rudo?

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Oh god no. I need the full experience.

[goodhelmet]

Fuck it, I'll stand up as the ROH apologist and take on your guys' points as best as I can...

 

One thing I noticed in my newfound exposure to ROH is they tend to have a lot of wrestling exibitions, to the point of looking like the guys are in slow motion in order to ensure every spot is done correctly, rather than giving the appearance of a competitive match.

This is simply a matter of perspective, and something I will address later in something Loss said. One of the reasons I like ROH as a whole is because I actually see guys who look like they give a shit what their fans want. Whether they actually pull this off or not is another story. Compare that with WWE that seems to back their way into a good match or story.

 

A combination of smarky crowds (even worse than the TNA one a lot of the time) and the general pretentious nature of the whole company just doesn't appeal to me. I'll always remember getting the first five shows when everyone was blowing smoke up their ass about all these MOTY's they were having, and out of all five shows I only really enjoyed a grand total of one match (Low Ki vs Am Drag on Show 2). The rest I found either totally overrated (the three-way main event from the debut show) or generic indy rubbish (pretty much all of the undercards). Later I ended up buying another 15 shows in a huge bulk deal that ended up costing me only around $1 per tape and still didn't like it, so never bothered getting any more. I've seen matches on comps every now and again like the CM Punk/Samoa Joe series (falls into the totally overrated category) and nothing managed to convince me to give it another try.

I thought the Three-way from the very first show was a beautiful match. Between that and Dragon-London, probably the best of the year. Every single sequence in that match made sense. Every move was executed flawlessly. Mix in a little comedy and each wrestler playing their roles perfectly and I am a happy camper. With the exception of the ending, I think it smokes the WM20 Three-way.

 

As for Punk-Joe, if you didn't like the feud or the matches, I really do not know what you expect out of a wrestling match.

 

They still have those stupid thrown together 4 ways on their shows.

I agree with you because I don't really enjoy scrambles or alot of the garbage matches that ROH includes but this kind of bothers me about some of your criticisms. People are complaining that ROH matches all try and be a MOTY but if you look at their cards, they usually have a little bit of something for everyone. There is usually a comedy moment mixed in (CSC, Colt Cabana, RIng crew Exprress, Ebessan). They try to approach the Pure Title differently than the World title. If you're an ECW mutant, they have had plenty of those "hardcore" moments. They have the spotfests, the ROH main event style that you guys tend to criticize and are now attemting to move into a Southern style. Whether they can actually pull that off remains to be seen. What I have seen alot of here is over-generalizing. With Loss, I can understand becuase I sent him comps of ROH and not complete shows so he has a limited perspective. For the rest of you, you don't really have ground to stand on here.

 

It's impossible to care about the first 5-10 minutes of anything in the promotion when you know it's ultimately meaningless.

This was also a criticism of NJ Juniors of the 90s.

 

The undercards are still filled with 100 lb. kids who I could probably beat up. I'm not one of those bigger = better guys but some of the guys they throw out there just can't be taken seriously.

 

....

 

ROH has too many guys who look like they should be bagging groceries in the opening matches.

 

I agree to some extent except if those 100lb kids are fighting other 100lb kids, I don't see the problem. What kills me, and this is a criticism of ROH, is when they have these kids go toe-to-toe with the "Main eventers".

 

I hate the crowds and announcing as well. As much shit as TNA takes for announcing they're at least excited about the product. The RoH guys just sound like they're going through the motions most of the time.

I agree. The biggest problem here is that the announcing is recorded later while a couple of guys are watching the matches in the studio. This is also a reason why you hear the constant pimping of MOTY!!! Usually, people on their message board and DVDVR are already pimping the matches so the annoucners are just reinforcing a belief that people that buy their product already believe. As for the emotional investment, I think any genuine emotion while watching the match was probably spent when watching it live.

 

It's also annoying that they crow about how smart a crowd they are then cream themselves over the scramble matches and then sit on their hands for the actual good shows.

Agreed 100%. But lets get some perspective here. WWE crowds will do the same thing. WCW crowds used to be scary silent when our favorite cruisers or Netgods were wrestling their hearts out but then go batshit for Luger vs. Hogan. So, is it the promotion's fault for not feeding the fans what they want or the fans' fault for not appreciating a good match?

 

They also have no clue about match placement as they'll open shows with bathroom break matches or have an opener calibur match in what should be the cool down match after a really good one. It makes sitting through a show really hard.

I think all promotions suffer through this. Let me think of a few examples where the listing for a big show was just screwy.

 

I don't want no-nonsense wrestling, because wrestling is supposed to be nonsense.

What do you mean by this?

 

 

This is a good point. As strange as it sounds to say, promotions should try to book at least 1-2 bad matches on every card. Nothing gets over unless it stands out from the pack, and the best way to make a great match stand out is to surround it with other stuff that you know isn't going to upstage it.

Eh, I disagree with this. There is enough bad wrestling in the world where you do not have to include shit matches on a card for someone to know what a good or bad match is. I think this was also the purpose of our Creat-a-Card project from awhile back. You can costruct a great card from top to bottom while offering different styles and plenty of variety without dipping into negative stars.

 

ROH sucks. The fans suck. the ring sucks, the believability sucks and the matches from what I see are always overrated. It never fails to happen. I watch one of their critically acclaimed matches and it does nothing for me. One of their rescent matches has commonly gotten 5 stars. I watched it and couldn't even give it one and a half stars.

Tell us what you really think. But seriously... you didn't really elaborate on anything so I won't bother to respond. I only want to know what match you actually saw that was pimped as *****.

[Guest SweetMama Scaat]

What is up with TNA crowds anyway? That Abyss chant manages to both confuse and annoy me every time.

[Mad Dog]

I think RoH should get Jim Cornette to do commentary live at the shows. I think that would make the product a lot more standable.

[anarchistxx]

I got into ROH a little bit, but to be honest I now have no motivation to watch any of their shows. The only wrestler from ROH that I want to watch is Samoa Joe. I recently picked up 5 DVD's and was unimpressed.

 

The Punk/Aries match at DBDIII is certainly not the match I've been told it was. Only just makes *** in my view. And Punk's 'best promo ever' at the end, was average, and totally ripped Jake The Snake.

 

I find most of their stuff to be very overrated. They do throw out MOTYC, and I have seen some great matches on their shows, but most of the time the hype exceeds the actualy performance.

 

I don't watch WWE any more because their programming bores me. I only catch any pimped matches, and I buy some of their DVD releases.

 

I have no interest in TNA. Samoa Joe once again is the only talent I have any interest in, and I can just download the matches he has.

 

Out of the bunch, I'd say WWE is better, but I'm not a fan of either really at the moment.

[Loss]

What I mean is that is that wrestling is mostly bullshit, and I like it that way. It's about shittalkers, egomaniacs, betrayal, jealousy, adversity and colorful personalities; it's about friendships gone bad and either convincing the public to rally behind you in your cause (babyfaces) or not really giving a damn if they do or not (heels). Taking all those elements out of wrestling makes it very dry and bare bones, to a point where it's not even all that fun anymore.

[sek69]

I have to admit, the crowd wasn't overly smarky for the Joe/Kobashi match.

[Coffey]

Alright, so whom do you guys think is the best worker and talker in each promotion?